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General/Other - Ermac Are You Satisfied with The Design of Ermac?

Afumba

Kombatant
MoS isnt average. Stop with all the downplaying. Sure mystic and spectral have problems. But MoS is fine. It sucks that he truly only has one tourney viable variation but every where I go, I see you complaining man. Use MoS or stop complaining. Pretty much all there is too it.
Agree here... Its seems to be a thing for lots of ppls to just label a character "not viable" or "average" cuz he isnt top 5 or top 10.

But on the other hand ppls that state Mystic is truly viable are in as much denial as ppls that say MoS is average. At least in my oppinion. (not saying you did just a comment about some posts here)
 

zaf

professor
Agree here... Its seems to be a thing for lots of ppls to just label a character "not viable" or "average" cuz he isnt top 5 or top 10.

But on the other hand ppls that state Mystic is truly viable are in as much denial as ppls that say MoS is average. At least in my oppinion. (not saying you did just a comment about some posts here)
No i agree.

The top 15 IMO currently are definitely tournament viable. Even some that are not in the top 15 are still viable.
The game is heavily read based. All comes down to the player. I do not have mileena in the top 15, but top 20 probably and salt face puts in work with her.
 

BoromiRofGeo

Kombatant
MoS isnt average. Stop with all the downplaying. Sure mystic and spectral have problems. But MoS is fine. It sucks that he truly only has one tourney viable variation but every where I go, I see you complaining man. Use MoS or stop complaining. Pretty much all there is too it.
well im sorry i feel this way, but im not the only one. look few pages behind, big-d said almost exactly same thing, he said that he doesnt think that mos is tournament viable.You on the other hand have been upplaying ermac since day 1. And it's fine, man. You have your opinion, and i have mine.
at this point it is useless to argue, im not that kind of type. but im almost completely sure that in few months, maybe even right after EVO people will get at least basic idea of tier lists. and in that tier list we'll be sitting at bottom.
 

Icy Black Deep

Still training...
Agree here... Its seems to be a thing for lots of ppls to just label a character "not viable" or "average" cuz he isnt top 5 or top 10.
Well there is a problem of how "viable" is defined. Does being top, say, 10 mean a character is viable even if it's really "viable as long as you don't run into a top-3 character"?
 

zaf

professor
well im sorry i feel this way, but im not the only one. look few pages behind, big-d said almost exactly same thing, he said that he doesnt think that mos is tournament viable.You on the other hand have been upplaying ermac since day 1. And it's fine, man. You have your opinion, and i have mine.
at this point it is useless to argue, im not that kind of type. but im almost completely sure that in few months, maybe even right after EVO people will get at least basic idea of tier lists. and in that tier list we'll be sitting at bottom.
I would not say up playing. Just discussing in general. People want to say how unsafe he is, but his overhead is really only the truly unsafe options to be going for. He has a lot of safe pressure. A lot of people also like to talk like he has no other way to be played then his 50/50 vortex. If that is the only way you are playing him, then of course you are going to think he is nothing but unsafe. Try to just play the character a different way. Big d is also a perennial downplayer. He has been doing that as long as he has been alive. A lot of people say that ermac is good. That he is in the top 15. There are also a lot of people on the forums who play online and do not attend tournaments. N1kolass seems to be doing just fine with him and I also just got 13th with him at ect. The only thing I ever complain about with him, is his busted ass armor.

if he is sitting at the bottom, then it would be on a tier list with overall characters listed.
if it is a tier list by best variatrion or just variations alone, then he can make top 15 IMO. MoS is not average lol.
Vortex can completely negate the entire game. One hit from the start of the match and you can make it so your opponent does not even get to play.
Also the overhead and low is more based on reads then just flipping a coin. If you know how the opponent is going to block, then it is 100% no risk at all.

just try using MoS differently or something, i unno what to tell you.
 

14K

Warrior
I would not say up playing. Just discussing in general. People want to say how unsafe he is, but his overhead is really only the truly unsafe options to be going for. He has a lot of safe pressure. A lot of people also like to talk like he has no other way to be played then his 50/50 vortex. If that is the only way you are playing him, then of course you are going to think he is nothing but unsafe. Try to just play the character a different way. Big d is also a perennial downplayer. He has been doing that as long as he has been alive. A lot of people say that ermac is good. That he is in the top 15. There are also a lot of people on the forums who play online and do not attend tournaments. N1kolass seems to be doing just fine with him and I also just got 13th with him at ect. The only thing I ever complain about with him, is his busted ass armor.

if he is sitting at the bottom, then it would be on a tier list with overall characters listed.
if it is a tier list by best variatrion or just variations alone, then he can make top 15 IMO. MoS is not average lol.
Vortex can completely negate the entire game. One hit from the start of the match and you can make it so your opponent does not even get to play.
Also the overhead and low is more based on reads then just flipping a coin. If you know how the opponent is going to block, then it is 100% no risk at all.

just try using MoS differently or something, i unno what to tell you.
Honestly tho man, i gotta be real here and bring everyone to the same table so ppl can understand whats really going on here.

We Watch ETC/ ESL/ CB and what do more uneducated ppl see? Sonya doing Overheads into lows into overheads into lows into etc... We see Erron Blacks Tgrabbing, doing again Overhead into low into safe Specials. Same thing applying to Safer vortex characters like scorpion etc..etc.. and this sticks to ppls head, and when they grab Ermac, Which does have the tools, but is not as "easy" to apply in a real match, ppl start wondering, well if this other characters have such an easy time doing this 50/50s and absurd safe pressure why does my Ermac not do the same? maybe he is just not good enouth....

Im 100% sure this is the kind of mentality that drives uneducated comenting. Ermac is not a character that you can do ape shit with guys, he is methodical and you have to pick your moments carefully, thats why he does so much dmg, because he rewards pantience and carefull consideration on how to play each MU. Unfortunally Zaf, now a days ppl just want to turn their brains off and press buttons and expect to win...

EDIT: does Ermac have some stuff that is not quite there as it should be? sure he does but he is very good on the right hands.
 

BoromiRofGeo

Kombatant
Big d is also a perennial downplayer.
oh god i lol'd so hard. :thumbsup:
A lot of people also like to talk like he has no other way to be played then his 50/50 vortex. If that is the only way you are playing him, then of course you are going to think he is nothing but unsafe.
i honestly want to know how and what exactly you mean. i really do. this is why i've been asking for some ermac match up footage and videos to see how people can also play with him. because i cant zone with him. what else is there to play. doing whole game b34 or f43? i do not think that is practical at all.
A lot of people say that ermac is good. That he is in the top 15.
you have to agree that top 15 out of 30 is borderline to meh and frak this.
N1kolass seems to be doing just fine with him and I also just got 13th with him at ect.
i just watched this yesterday, overall score is something like 2-20.
Also the overhead and low is more based on reads then just flipping a coin. If you know how the opponent is going to block, then it is 100% no risk at all.
100% agree but the thing is half the cast does this in a safe manner and doesnt die just from 1 wrong guess.
Ermac is not a character that you can do ape shit with guys, he is methodical and you have to pick your moments carefully, thats why he does so much dmg, because he rewards pantience and carefull consideration on how to play each MU. Unfortunally Zaf, now a days ppl just want to turn their brains off and press buttons and expect to win...
the definition of LOW TIER. you just yourself wrote that...
and what is it about turning brains off. a little bit late maybe? johnny cage f3 mk9 anyone? kabal ndc cancel anyone? hello? no? ok ill see my way out.
 

14K

Warrior
@BoromiRofGeo Dude you joking right? That is very far from the definition of a Low Tier character, thats the same kind of mentality that i exposed in my post and you seem to suffer from it heavely if you think this way... Just cause a character requires more time put into it and a more carefull approuch does not make it low tier, it makes him, simply a good character for dedicated players... The fact that you think that a character that allows you to go ape shit is made of Top tier material you are very much wrong my friend... Brain dead characters have a timespam of greatness, when it ends they fall down to mid tiers...
 

methademic

UPR Methademic
To add on you asked what else you are supposed to do the whole game because b34 and f43 are impractical and this is true but you should be using his 50/50 game on reads your pressure comes from strings like b124 which I think is criminally underused at the moment
 

zaf

professor
i honestly want to know how and what exactly you mean. i really do. this is why i've been asking for some ermac match up footage and videos to see how people can also play with him. because i cant zone with him. what else is there to play. doing whole game b34 or f43? i do not think that is practical at all
Honestly my main form of pressure is with his b124 string.
Generally you want to start off with b124 and complete the string.
But like @14K said, ermac is methodical. You need to make reads.
After you do b124 you need to recognize what the opponent wants to do. If they want to poke you after b124 with a d1/d3 then you have a few options. You first need to block the string so that the opponent is now - frames. Depending on the character and the poke you can get a punish with standing 2 into 222 full punish. If the opponent has a - frame poke that is not punishable you can still start pressuring again after their poke into block string.

After b124 you can also pressure with a poke of your own. You can d1 / d3 after this string since it is 0 on block (neutral) it is quite fast and the opponent has to block this or they have to armor. If your poke hits then you get to apply pressure again. Either go back into b124 or another string.

Now after you have conditioned your opponent to the b124 string you can start to stagger the string and go into b12. It is only -2 so you can kind of treat the string like it is neutral and still apply pressure. If the opponent is conditioned to respect b124 then the -2 frames don't even matter really.

From here you can still apply the same concept with b124. You can just expect a poke Andy block it to either get a punish or block the poke and continue to apply pressure.

Or you can start to mix up now after b12. After b12 depending on your reads, you can start to mix in the low and overhead game. If you have a hard read on the opponent blocking low during your strings, then go into b12 stagger F4 into combo.if they block high a lot during your pressure then do b12 stagger into b3 into full combo.

Now if you are not entirely sure on how they are going to be blocking because they mix it up you still have SAFE options. After b12 you can cross up and start all over. If you think they might be blocking low but you are not too sure because they have been adapting then go into b12 instant air overhead. It hits as an overhead. On hit you are + frames and can continue pressure. On block you are roughly +1-2. So you can still do a poke after or go into a string. The same applies for going low. If you are not sure how they will block and they adapt then do b12 stagger into d3. On hit you are + frames and more then enough to even 50/50 if you want or just keep applying pressure.mon block you are -6. You are always able to do b12 grab as well. Doing this will make your opponent try to tech a grab and eventually you can do b12 into a string to punish grab techs.

So all this time using b124 string, you are applying pressure and conditioning your opponent. Conditioning the opponent like this makes it a lot easier to get reads and land a F4 or B3. A lot of players I see right now just go right into F4 or B3 with little to no conditioning. But if you condition the opponent you turn a coin flip into a 100% read and get a hit instead of taking a risk.
 

haketh

Champion
Also LEARN THE OS OFF OF B124/Teleport & the JiPxEXBlast or land B3xTeleport OS if you're playing Mystic. That shit is important.
 

14K

Warrior
Also LEARN THE OS OFF OF B124/Teleport & the JiPxEXBlast or land B3xTeleport OS if you're playing Mystic. That shit is important.
I thought OS where going to be removed?! is that a thing? or did i imagine it somewhere?
 

Embestone

Stoen
Honestly my main form of pressure is with his b124 string.
Generally you want to start off with b124 and complete the string.
But like @14K said, ermac is methodical. You need to make reads.
After you do b124 you need to recognize what the opponent wants to do. If they want to poke you after b124 with a d1/d3 then you have a few options. You first need to block the string so that the opponent is now - frames. Depending on the character and the poke you can get a punish with standing 2 into 222 full punish. If the opponent has a - frame poke that is not punishable you can still start pressuring again after their poke into block string.

After b124 you can also pressure with a poke of your own. You can d1 / d3 after this string since it is 0 on block (neutral) it is quite fast and the opponent has to block this or they have to armor. If your poke hits then you get to apply pressure again. Either go back into b124 or another string.

Now after you have conditioned your opponent to the b124 string you can start to stagger the string and go into b12. It is only -2 so you can kind of treat the string like it is neutral and still apply pressure. If the opponent is conditioned to respect b124 then the -2 frames don't even matter really.

From here you can still apply the same concept with b124. You can just expect a poke Andy block it to either get a punish or block the poke and continue to apply pressure.

Or you can start to mix up now after b12. After b12 depending on your reads, you can start to mix in the low and overhead game. If you have a hard read on the opponent blocking low during your strings, then go into b12 stagger F4 into combo.if they block high a lot during your pressure then do b12 stagger into b3 into full combo.

Now if you are not entirely sure on how they are going to be blocking because they mix it up you still have SAFE options. After b12 you can cross up and start all over. If you think they might be blocking low but you are not too sure because they have been adapting then go into b12 instant air overhead. It hits as an overhead. On hit you are + frames and can continue pressure. On block you are roughly +1-2. So you can still do a poke after or go into a string. The same applies for going low. If you are not sure how they will block and they adapt then do b12 stagger into d3. On hit you are + frames and more then enough to even 50/50 if you want or just keep applying pressure.mon block you are -6. You are always able to do b12 grab as well. Doing this will make your opponent try to tech a grab and eventually you can do b12 into a string to punish grab techs.

So all this time using b124 string, you are applying pressure and conditioning your opponent. Conditioning the opponent like this makes it a lot easier to get reads and land a F4 or B3. A lot of players I see right now just go right into F4 or B3 with little to no conditioning. But if you condition the opponent you turn a coin flip into a 100% read and get a hit instead of taking a risk.
And to follow up, one thing I do after conditioning them with b12, and they start trying to poke. Then I can start making a read for a poke and start canceling the b12 into soulball it catches people all the time in my experience, but then again, I play a lot of online... Unsafe, but, well so is the rest of ermac.
 
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BoromiRofGeo

Kombatant
can anyone confirm that OS are working on a PC? ive been trying to do them on various characters and couldnt pull it off even once. probably just me though,
 

Icy Black Deep

Still training...
People start wondering, well if this other characters have such an easy time doing this 50/50s and absurd safe pressure why does my Ermac not do the same? Maybe he is just not good enough....
The absence of safe, braindead 50/50s does not make Ermac low tier, but it does make the characters with those safe, braindead 50/50s god-tier. And if the game has god-tier characters why use mid-tier (even high-mid-tier) characters? It may not technically be a problem with Ermac, but you no make-a th' game, you no make-a th' rules.

What I remember of Combo Breaker is @GGA N1k0lasss doing well, beating everyone except the two Erron Blacks that pretty much ran him over.
 

14K

Warrior
There is also a nifty little trick you can do that makes ppl very uneasy, whilst building alot of meter. its MU specific because its only as safe as you make out to be. this is known, but not very used, and i think ppl should use it more to frustrate the opponent into making a mistake, and for you to build meter and faking a low. When you do Levitate you are given a couple of options, most people use it for the ground pound low, which is without a doubt a great tool to hinder someones advance on you, it does nice chip and is decently fast going hitting the floor. You can go into teleport, but without a hard read its pretty much the unsafest thing you can do. Or you can cancel the Levitate, which honestly, i would rather Stomp, considering canceling, does leave you in danger due to the recovery. The Option i mean here, is not mentioned in the list, but it still works. After levitate at any point of it, you can cancel the levitate into the Vanish, come out of the Vanish go back into Levitate and repeat this process as many times as you like without touching the ground.

Whats the point of this you ask? well, while doing this special to special cancel, your building a considerable amount of meter for free without putting yourself at considerable risk while still threatning a low. If you are fast enouth and have good execution, you are only vunerable for a couple frames (where he reappears to go into the levitate animation to vanish again, and during Vanish not only are you safe but you retain the option to teleport or go back to levitate and do whatever other option i mentioned above...

Again this is only as safe as you make it out to be, if a guy rushes you, maybe stay vanished and wait for him to try and AA you and counter, or if you see his rushing you go into levitate and go into the Low pound to make sure your safe. Like i said you have plenty of options and they are mostly in your favor... Meter is ever so important in this game, specially for ermac...

The absence of safe, braindead 50/50s does not make Ermac low tier, but it does make the characters with those safe, braindead 50/50s god-tier. And if the game has god-tier characters why use mid-tier (even high-mid-tier) characters? It may not technically be a problem with Ermac, but you no make-a th' game, you no make-a th' rules.

What I remember of Combo Breaker is @GGA N1k0lasss doing well, beating everyone except the two Erron Blacks that pretty much ran him over.
Itsa me a Mario XD i get you man, and i do understand the reasoning behind it. but heres what im seeing more and more each tornament. this so called brain dead 50/50s feel more like gimmicks than actual skill... and as such good players are starting to catch onto it. When the first Sonya players surfaced everyone was getting hit left and right by the mix ups. a character no one gave a crap about sky rocketed into being the best character of the game in literally 2 weeks or should i say she was always there but it took the community 2 weeks to realize how good she really was... so for the following weeks we had Sonya complitely dominate everything... But now ppl are starting to understand how to block her and how to punish her and how to zone her out. And this same ppl that moved to Sonya cause of the Brain dead 50/50s are now like WTH i thought this was the press this button to win character i always wanted... So now they actually have to learn to play smarter instead of braindead...
 
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haketh

Champion
The absence of safe, braindead 50/50s does not make Ermac low tier, but it does make the characters with those safe, braindead 50/50s god-tier. And if the game has god-tier characters why use mid-tier (even high-mid-tier) characters? It may not technically be a problem with Ermac, but you no make-a th' game, you no make-a th' rules.

What I remember of Combo Breaker is @GGA N1k0lasss doing well, beating everyone except the two Erron Blacks that pretty much ran him over.
Because the tiers aren't that bad in this game that playing a Top 15 character is fucking yourself over

They ran him over form what looked like a lack of MU knowledge & well just being better players.
 
Because the tiers aren't that bad in this game that playing a Top 15 character is fucking yourself over

They ran him over form what looked like a lack of MU knowledge & well just being better players.
I lost from sonicfox cause i had 0 MU knowledge thats why it looked so bad
 

I GOT HANDS

Official Infrared Scorp wid gapless Wi-Fi pressure
There is also a nifty little trick you can do that makes ppl very uneasy, whilst building alot of meter. its MU specific because its only as safe as you make out to be. this is known, but not very used, and i think ppl should use it more to frustrate the opponent into making a mistake, and for you to build meter and faking a low. When you do Levitate you are given a couple of options, most people use it for the ground pound low, which is without a doubt a great tool to hinder someones advance on you, it does nice chip and is decently fast going hitting the floor. You can go into teleport, but without a hard read its pretty much the unsafest thing you can do. Or you can cancel the Levitate, which honestly, i would rather Stomp, considering canceling, does leave you in danger due to the recovery. The Option i mean here, is not mentioned in the list, but it still works. After levitate at any point of it, you can cancel the levitate into the Vanish, come out of the Vanish go back into Levitate and repeat this process as many times as you like without touching the ground.

Whats the point of this you ask? well, while doing this special to special cancel, your building a considerable amount of meter for free without putting yourself at considerable risk while still threatning a low. If you are fast enouth and have good execution, you are only vunerable for a couple frames (where he reappears to go into the levitate animation to vanish again, and during Vanish not only are you safe but you retain the option to teleport or go back to levitate and do whatever other option i mentioned above...

Again this is only as safe as you make it out to be, if a guy rushes you, maybe stay vanished and wait for him to try and AA you and counter, or if you see his rushing you go into levitate and go into the Low pound to make sure your safe. Like i said you have plenty of options and they are mostly in your favor... Meter is ever so important in this game, specially for ermac...
Interesting.... that could be very effective used right

Itsa me a Mario XD i get you man, and i do understand the reasoning behind it. but heres what im seeing more and more each tornament. this so called brain dead 50/50s feel more like gimmicks than actual skill... and as such good players are starting to catch onto it. When the first Sonya players surfaced everyone was getting hit left and right by the mix ups. a character no one gave a crap about sky rocketed into being the best character of the game in literally 2 weeks or should i say she was always there but it took the community 2 weeks to realize how good she really was... so for the following weeks we had Sonya complitely dominate everything... But now ppl are starting to understand how to block her and how to punish her and how to zone her out. And this same ppl that moved to Sonya cause of the Brain dead 50/50s are now like WTH i thought this was the press this button to win character i always wanted... So now they actually have to learn to play smarter instead of braindead...
I agree with what you are saying, Sonya automatically wins if the opponent doesn't know the match up, she is a braindead victory, unlike Ermac. Sonya is still very strong though and definitely top 10 when played really well, she still has an excellent 50/50 mix-up even if they do know how to block it they have to guess right, then blocking the overhead into low into overhead is an easy block execution to mess up in a game even if you guessed right and know what you are doing. But even then, after her 50/50, she goes into another 50/50 with military stance, and thats not including the grab. Her mix-ups are real.

That being said, I agree there is no way Ermac is low tier JUST because he is methodical. He has a different playstyle to some other characters, some characters capitilise on lack of match up knowledge better than others, so while Ermac may not do this as well as say Sonya, when two players who both know their match ups duke it out, Sonya loses that "braindead win" advantage. Ermac is midtier without a doubt