Discussion Are 50/50s really the dominant offensive strategy in MKX?

[Gilbagz]

QUESTION:
ANSWER:





lol true. i guess it depends on the character. i fought this one subzero who back dashed and whiffed punished my d'vorah's f1,1,2 enough times for me to change up my gameplan into reading the backdashes

@Wazminator. Sounds famil? Lol

 

[Eddy Wang]

Seriously TYM, what kind of weed ya been smoking? What kind of threads are these?

 

[Rude]

Tanya, cage, Liu don't have unseeable mixups.

Mileena and alien have full combo punishable mixups.

Takeda's mixups are dependant on him having established his block string game already.

It doesn't matter if the mix up is unsafe. It's still a 50/50.

Also, Alien only has one unsafe option off his base 50/50.

Cage has a 15f, unreachable overhead and the ability to condition you to block low with 113 and d4.

 

[ismael4790]

It doesn't matter if the mix up is unsafe. It's still a 50/50.

Also, Alien only has one unsafe option off his base 50/50.

Cage has a 15f, unreachable overhead and the ability to condition you to block low with 113 and d4.

Opening up people with Cage is not an easy task. That gets compensated by A-List tools, semi compensated by SD tools and not compensated at all in Fisticuffs, where options after 113 suck.

 

[Rude]

In A-List you can't.113 and 12 SKRC f2 done right is unfuzzyable.

Exactly. You get it.

 

[Rude]

Opening up people with Cage is not an easy task. That gets compensated by A-List tools, semi compensated by SD tools and not compensated at all in Fisticuffs, where options after 113 suck.

....I was going to argue the point..

...but fuck it. Sure. 100% fuzzyable. Someone go blow up Vendetta in tournament because of how reactable his mix ups are. Have a ball.

 

[ismael4790]

....I was going to argue the point..

...but fuck it. Sure. 100% fuzzyable. Someone go blow up Vendetta in tournament because of how reactable his mix ups are. Have a ball.

As I said, A-List has tools to work with. 113 can be made safe with a cancel, and if it hits, it is hitconfirm into combo. That is HUGE.

Stunt double stays plus on block after 113 if he has clones, and also leads to combo if hit hits with rising mimic. If he uses mimic sk on block after 113 he gets guaranteed followups. And, as in A-List, that's meterless.

Fisticuffs has to commit into a full punishable move every single time after 113 to get any kind of true damage, or use exforceball to get some few + frames that actually lead to nothing scary because fisticuffs' f3 has the worst use of the three. There is a huge difference between this variation and the other two.

 

[VerminatorX]

Are you also having this feel like NRS gameplay designers really havent thought deeply enough about what are they doing? That their work was looking like "lets just give character X some overheads and lows, make animations so fast that human brain cannot react, a little guessing wont hurt", and repeated this pattern to almost everyone in roster?

 

[DDutchguy]

You gonna type a legitimate response.....or just post a picture in a passive aggressive ass manner to score yourself some likes? I think I know the answer.

Cossner's picture summed up my response perfectly to be honest, even if it is a bit meme-y. If he did write a legitimate response it would just be "No you're wrong" with the inevitable back-and-forth that causes the thread to derail as has happened many times before.

 

[EMPEROR PRYCE]

I don't see how Mileena isn't a 50/50 char. The whole notion that she's just this "footsie / zoning" character is not being completely honest. She has very strong offense with countless staggers and strings, and she's definitely a 50/50 character also. She's just literally everything being 50/50s / offense / pressure / footsies / space control / and zoning.

I can't tell how many tournament matches I watch where top Mileena players win by doing a string mix-up with a low and use EX Overhead ball roll to clutch it out, or to open up the opponent with one of her (5?) multiple 50/50 mix-ups in strings or the mindgame conditioning of going low or overhead.


Alien is just as strong of a 50/50 character as he is a pressure and footsie character, IMO.

I also believe D'Vorah is a 50/50 character along with being a rushdown / pressure and footsie character. Her 50/50s strengthen her offense and both of them together are essentially what makes D'Vorah, D'Vorah.

Ermac is a top tier 50/50 character with zoning and space control.

Quan Chi was arguably considered the best in the game and had insane 50/50s and hard to blockables at one point.

Tanya was also underrated as a 50/50 character. Standing 1~EX Low drill or B+1 was in itself a 50/50 that hit many players in tournament and was risky to scout and block if you were psychology on the receiving end. But she was mainly a rushdown / pressure character WITH the added bonus of a 50/50 in Kobujutsu.

Demolition Sonya (who many top players currently consider potentially the best ATM) needs no explanation.

Cutthroat also doesn't need an explanation.

Pre-Patch Raiden was both an offensive juggernaut and a 50/50 power house.

Smoke, Imposter, Jacqui, Jax, Ferra/ Torr, Kotal Kahn, and Kung Jin are underlooked 50/50 and mix-up heavy characters that are extremely strong in the current meta in the game. ESPECIALLY Smoke and Imposter - who are severely underestimated by the community.


I think 50/50s and rushdown / pressure in this game are pretty even if you factor in day one to now. Pre patch Liu Kang was the most broken rushdown character while characters like pre patch Quan Chi and Raiden were the most ridiculous 50/50 characters.

Say it again for the people in the back!

 

[GLoRToR]

So it seems everyone has come to the conclusion that offense in MKX is very strong. 50/50s often come under fire for being an easy, braindead way to initiate offense. Given their strength in MKX and the skewed risk reward, it seems as if everyone thinks 50/50s are what makes a character good.

However, for the majority of the game's life, I think it's been block string/stagger pressure has been the dominant offensive strategy.

Let's look at the current and previous top tiers of this game;

- Kung Lao
Dominated with staggers, block string pressure and great armour and plus frames

- Tanya
Dominated the game with great mobility, insane block pressure and very strong staggers with wreckers.

- Liu Kang
Block string pressure for days

- Alien
Acidic dominates with strong neutral tools, very good armour, spacing game and DOT

Tarkaten relies on the wrecker mind game along with spacing, armour and neutral dominance

- Mileena
Spacing, staggers, meter build, great neutral/pace control

- D'Vorah
Has 50/50s but staggers and run cancel pressure are a massive part of her game.

- Johnny Cage
Neutral and block string/stagger pressure

- Takeda
Block string pressure with ex kunai or staggers in ronin. Has hard to blockables, but majority of gameplan revolves around spacing and block string pressure.


The two characters which immediately contradict this are Sonya and Kano, but I think if you look at MKX overall, it's block pressure which has been the most dominant offensive strategy.

What are your thoughts?

The problem is not whether it's 33, 50, 25 or even staggers, guessing games - mixups - are the issue, namely that they are too little risk for far too much reward. Guessing right in a vortex should mean you're falling on your ass pants down in a field of cucumbers.

 

[omooba]

Are you also having this feel like NRS gameplay designers really havent thought deeply enough about what are they doing? That their work was looking like "lets just give character X some overheads and lows, make animations so fast that human brain cannot react, a little guessing wont hurt", and repeated this pattern to almost everyone in roster?

this is complete bullshit

 

[shura30]

it seems as if everyone thinks 50/50s are what makes a character good.

I believe 50/50 make characters BETTER than others
not necessarily the single condition for them to be viable/competitive/broken

when you have coinflip on your side (plus f/b grabs never forget it's 25/25/25/25 in reality) suddenly every other tool boosts your overall potential because of the constant threat and the respect it deserves

the best example right now is smoke's jumpin punch
+50 on hit that can be followed by literally anything, and that huge window (almost a full second) throws away every possible counter in terms of fuzzy or reactions

you mentioned lao as a previous top tier
no real launching 50/50 but b2 or d4 followed by any of his other special move or followup was his way to threat people into allowing him to do whatever he pleased

as already pointed by countless other threads or people, it's the huge advantage on block or on hit that completely removes reactions from a player's defense thus turning this game into the coinflip everyone hates

 

[MadeOfMetal]

To op @Pan1cMode :

I feel 50/50's is a huge part of the game's core mechanics, and has been since day 1. with that being said, its a combination of all of the tools, Cancel pressure, Block Strings, Jailing jump in's, 30/30/30's (or mixing up how many hits you do consecuatively mixes up opponent up as well, Kitana/Cybernetic/Johnny fisty is perfect examples of this) Space control, and Zoning play a big factor in this game.

Basically what im getting at, even though i believe Zoning is not good on its own, it is a huge role in this game, Together with Moves that control space or force opponent back and good spacing together with mixups, and zoing as well as 30's allows characters to be top tier. When a character Utilizes all of them and has versitility in all aspects then and only then are they S tier or A+. and thats what we see with our current top tier. Just for example: Alien, Mileena, and Ermac. all have Great Space Control, Great Anti airs, Great Mixups, Great zoning, Great Pressure, and of course even 30-30-30's.

You are right about one thing though, 50/50's is not the only thing that makes a character good, even if the 50/50's are not there, they still have many ways to open up characters like 30/30/30's and those are harder to guess than 50/50's. Johnny Cage is the perfect example of this: Some say he does not have a mixup game because his 113 is negative, but when you factor in his decent D3 and his Godlike D4 you have that mixup game, then factor in Conditioning. but what a good Johnny relys on is not so much the 50/50's but more so his ability to pressure 3030's on his opponent. forcing them to step out of turn. When you factor in the core mechanics of this game the OS aspect of it, the guessing weather it be options after a jump, or Run options, am i gonna guess right, will they Jump out of run/Armor/Special/Poke/Normal/Bait? or when they Jump and they can Teleport/Skydive kick/Boost delay/AirOS imposter. you have a true guess game. and thats all without 50/50's and thats pure Reads and Guessing, which is in all fighting games.

• My final opinion is NO 50/50's is not the only dominate offensive strategy nor is Cancel pressure, its a combination of: Neutral, Footsies, Zoning, Space Control, 30/30/30's, 50/50's All together that makes the offense of this Meta in MKXL.

 

[MadeOfMetal]

this is complete bullshit

I always laugh at the people who Claim the 50/50's are braindead, They are the ones left behind, its a full year and half into the games core, and we have had 50/50's the entire time, and its not as hard as reading 30/30's and mutiple guess situations that have astronomical chances at guessing right, and every fighter shares that aspect. just the acting like 50/50's is what makes the game unskillful is absurd. we know all fighting games 50/50's or not have a Read and Guess factor and its a big part of all fighters.

I genuinlly Love MKXL and how they made it, they did fuck up some patches, and some balances they went over board and took a wrong approach "with the Nerf in case approach" but all in all MKXL is the greatest game they have made bar none. and i love all of them, but this one is becoming the most balanced Fighter they have made so far. and could be one of the most balanced fighters if they change a few Game mechanics and focus on Defense in the upcomming patch oct 4th. like Breakers costing only 1 bar and buffing AA's and Nerfing some JIP's and Instant air JIP. stuff like that could do wonders for the games balance. and if they take a slower approach to Patching, this 6 months is a perfect break to patch a agme, and hope to gawd they only give slight 2-6 Buffs for Bottom where needed and 2-6 Nerfs where needed not this 27+ Buffs/Nerfs for one character and then wonder why Mileena Rockets to top tier or why Tekada goes from Bottom to A+ arguably S Tier in one patch.

I don't see how Mileena isn't a 50/50 char. The whole notion that she's just this "footsie / zoning" character is not being completely honest. She has very strong offense with countless staggers and strings, and she's definitely a 50/50 character also. She's just literally everything being 50/50s / offense / pressure / footsies / space control / and zoning.

I can't tell how many tournament matches I watch where top Mileena players win by doing a string mix-up with a low and use EX Overhead ball roll to clutch it out, or to open up the opponent with one of her (5?) multiple 50/50 mix-ups in strings or the mindgame conditioning of going low or overhead.


Alien is just as strong of a 50/50 character as he is a pressure and footsie character, IMO.

I also believe D'Vorah is a 50/50 character along with being a rushdown / pressure and footsie character. Her 50/50s strengthen her offense and both of them together are essentially what makes D'Vorah, D'Vorah.

Ermac is a top tier 50/50 character with zoning and space control.

Quan Chi was arguably considered the best in the game and had insane 50/50s and hard to blockables at one point.

Tanya was also underrated as a 50/50 character. Standing 1~EX Low drill or B+1 was in itself a 50/50 that hit many players in tournament and was risky to scout and block if you were psychology on the receiving end. But she was mainly a rushdown / pressure character WITH the added bonus of a 50/50 in Kobujutsu.

Demolition Sonya (who many top players currently consider potentially the best ATM) needs no explanation.

Cutthroat also doesn't need an explanation.

Pre-Patch Raiden was both an offensive juggernaut and a 50/50 power house.

Smoke, Imposter, Jacqui, Jax, Ferra/ Torr, Kotal Kahn, and Kung Jin are underlooked 50/50 and mix-up heavy characters that are extremely strong in the current meta in the game. ESPECIALLY Smoke and Imposter - who are severely underestimated by the community.


I think 50/50s and rushdown / pressure in this game are pretty even if you factor in day one to now. Pre patch Liu Kang was the most broken rushdown character while characters like pre patch Quan Chi and Raiden were the most ridiculous 50/50 characters.

I believe the same as you as in, its a mixture of all aspects of a character that makes them good, not a single tool like 50/50's or Cancel pressure, its all combined, Zoning, Footsies, Pressure, Blockstrings, Mixups, 30/30/30's, Air OS, Run OS, Mobility, Space Control and blah blah blah you know what i mean, but i 100% agree. None of the top characters are good just because of Cancel pressure its a combination off all of thier tools as well as Strong 50/50's.

 

[SmokingWarrior]

In A-List you can't.113 and 12 SKRC f2 done right is unfuzzyable.

Your reflexes must be clearly dead to get F2d after a -23 move

 

[hkriderz]

Your reflexes must be clearly dead to get F2d after a -23 move

Wut? 113 is the low, and 12 RC f2 is the overhead. I don't understand the joke lol

 

[aldazo]

Are you also having this feel like NRS gameplay designers really havent thought deeply enough about what are they doing? That their work was looking like "lets just give character X some overheads and lows, make animations so fast that human brain cannot react, a little guessing wont hurt", and repeated this pattern to almost everyone in roster?

I really doubt Paulo plays his own game, I bet he's a casual. like me.

 

[Meep8345]

I always laugh at the people who Claim the 50/50's are braindead, They are the ones left behind, its a full year and half into the games core, and we have had 50/50's the entire time, and its not as hard as reading 30/30's and mutiple guess situations that have astronomical chances at guessing right, and every fighter shares that aspect. just the acting like 50/50's is what makes the game unskillful is absurd. we know all fighting games 50/50's or not have a Read and Guess factor and its a big part of all fighters.

I genuinlly Love MKXL and how they made it, they did fuck up some patches, and some balances they went over board and took a wrong approach "with the Nerf in case approach" but all in all MKXL is the greatest game they have made bar none. and i love all of them, but this one is becoming the most balanced Fighter they have made so far. and could be one of the most balanced fighters if they change a few Game mechanics and focus on Defense in the upcomming patch oct 4th. like Breakers costing only 1 bar and buffing AA's and Nerfing some JIP's and Instant air JIP. stuff like that could do wonders for the games balance. and if they take a slower approach to Patching, this 6 months is a perfect break to patch a agme, and hope to gawd they only give slight 2-6 Buffs for Bottom where needed and 2-6 Nerfs where needed not this 27+ Buffs/Nerfs for one character and then wonder why Mileena Rockets to top tier or why Tekada goes from Bottom to A+ arguably S Tier in one patch.






I believe the same as you as in, its a mixture of all aspects of a character that makes them good, not a single tool like 50/50's or Cancel pressure, its all combined, Zoning, Footsies, Pressure, Blockstrings, Mixups, 30/30/30's, Air OS, Run OS, Mobility, Space Control and blah blah blah you know what i mean, but i 100% agree. None of the top characters are good just because of Cancel pressure its a combination off all of thier tools as well as Strong 50/50's.

Bruh are you kidding me so you'll say that CT Kano's 50/50's aren't brain dead or how about Demo? Even erron's 50/50's are crazy. Its not the 50/50's going into the same dmg from both options it's the lack of a reward for guessing right that makes some 50/50's brain dead (some characters make you guess after guessing right lmao) You can say that they had the right read on which way you would block but really you don't have to read shit because your safe and the most they'll get is their turn. This doesn't apply to the whole cast tho def

 

[Error]

Great depression memes... that is so meta

 

[Cossner]

Great depression memes... that is so meta

 

[Tweedy]

Alien and Mileena are exactly the same, kind of.

Both have high risk/high reward 50/50s. Neither are safe if they want to launch.

Both are really oppressive and stupid on all parts of the screen, making it so they're the ones that land. It doesn't matter if Jacqui is safer or does more damage, because she never lands hits.

 

[MadeOfMetal]

Bruh are you kidding me so you'll say that CT Kano's 50/50's aren't brain dead or how about Demo? Even erron's 50/50's are crazy. Its not the 50/50's going into the same dmg from both options it's the lack of a reward for guessing right that makes some 50/50's brain dead (some characters make you guess after guessing right lmao) You can say that they had the right read on which way you would block but really you don't have to read shit because your safe and the most they'll get is their turn. This doesn't apply to the whole cast tho def

I was reffering to mixups in general, not Sonyas/Aliens/Kano CT's thos obviously are getting toned down.

I was saying when people complaine about mixups being in the game. i just laugh cuz thats what MKX has been about for the entire Cycle of its life. If they dissagree with the Core Meta of the game, they should play other games.
Now as i said before its not the 50/50's that are the problem its certain tools they use with 50/50's that make the opponent have Zero options and force them to guess repeatedly that makes it broke.
E.G. Sonya Grenades go away on hit, alien JIP2 cut Rekkas gaped, Kanos Plus reduced so we can at least backdash. shit like that would be resonable requests. Like when Kano does it over and over on ya he is so plus you have nothing to say but guess i get frustration there. iunstead of removing a cool tool that he pays for with meter. Reduce how plus he is like Reo said you make it 5-7 frames plus and you would have a backdash option among other options.

Like i said before im not even maining the characters your talking about i have no need to downplay cuz i don't main them. I said if you can understand this, the 50/50's are not brain dead its the tools they use to keep you forced to guess thats Braindead.

 

[Saltea Moonspell]

Seriously TYM, what kind of weed ya been smoking? What kind of threads are these?

Its the same question that I asked my self right after bumpin' into this thread. Either someone has a good supplier or has its own plantation.

 

[Untiered]

I don't see how Mileena isn't a 50/50 char. The whole notion that she's just this "footsie / zoning" character is not being completely honest. She has very strong offense with countless staggers and strings, and she's definitely a 50/50 character also. She's just literally everything being 50/50s / offense / pressure / footsies / space control / and zoning.

I can't tell how many tournament matches I watch where top Mileena players win by doing a string mix-up with a low and use EX Overhead ball roll to clutch it out, or to open up the opponent with one of her (5?) multiple 50/50 mix-ups in strings or the mindgame conditioning of going low or overhead.

Her 50/50 game is meter dependent unless you count ravenous's low pounce. Even then she is spending bar for a -31 mixup.