General/Other - Ninjitsu Anyone else feels that Ninjutsu is missing something?

[wa_black]

The general consensus that I'm getting is that ninjustu needs a small buff to his neutral game.

As of right now f4,2 b3,2, f2 and f2 leave us at a disadvantage in the neutral. I think it'd be arbitrary to come up with random stun values to push for, but we can still form an idea of where we want to be.

I feel that would should end on neutral ground, not that we should be 0 on block, but enough space and frame data to move back for whiff punishes or press a button that the opponent could walk into without it being suicide.

I would also lIke to see f3's block advantage reduced to -5 or -6

 

[JTB123]

They should give helfire's blockstring pressure back, other characters with cancels still have blockstrings why not scorp? I don't get it.

Scorpion at the time was the only character that was put under a microscope for his cancel pressure. That's why it was significantly nerfed early on.

What still irks me though is how they went about it, not only did they nerf his cancels in an entirely unique way (resetting the block stun) they also nerfed the 214 string heavily and his was unique in that it started with a high string and not a mid.

That said though Scorpion is still very good and if he were to be buffed the old pressure coming back would not be on my list of requests. I honestly don't think Scorpion needs anything, he just requires a lot of work and match up knowledge.

 

[RM Jonnitti]

Scorpion walks like a turtle, walkback speed needs to be increased

thats almost every character in injustice and mkx

 

[MAN0]

Scorpion at the time was the only character that was put under a microscope for his cancel pressure. That's why it was significantly nerfed early on.

What still irks me though is how they went about it, not only did they nerf his cancels in an entirely unique way (resetting the block stun) they also nerfed the 214 string heavily and his was unique in that it started with a high string and not a mid.

That said though Scorpion is still very good and if he were to be buffed the old pressure coming back would not be on my list of requests. I honestly don't think Scorpion needs anything, he just requires a lot of work and match up knowledge.

The 214 nerf must have been unintentionally from reducing the plus frames on block otherwise, like you said, it doesn't make any sense.

It definitely dropped some levels after nerf but it's still a viable variation. I doubt we will see it winning any majors at it's current state anytime soon tho.

 

[Mitsuownes]

Let's just send a group mail to Paulo or something..

The voices of those who speak against Scorpion will always be louder than ours.

I mean just look at his Inferno variation. The damage got nerfed and meanwhile Quan Chi got buffed who can do a 53% combo in the corner.

I guess it's just part of being a Scorpion loyalist, you need to suffer in evey game.

Every game has Top Tiers, Scorpion can't be at that spot because we would be considered broken instantly.

 

[Eddy Wang]

thats almost every character in injustice and mkx

http://testyourmight.com/threads/movement-data.55410/#post-1866437

 

[HuttonMD]

Armor on ex spear

Wishful thinking but it could be used as counter poke or armoring gaps or even anti zoning. it would def help when he being pressured which I'm having a lot of trouble with but that's mostly just me needing to level up more. I know it would be overkill but everybody needs some dirt .

Not asking for it or saying he needs it just wishful thinking

 

[Matix218]

I think that fair buffs to Scorpion would be as follows:

Safe F2 from all ranges in Ninjutsu...Since this move is the basis of literally everything that this variation does I believe it should be a safe on block move.

Safe F2 in Hellfire/Inferno...its not like its an overhead launcher, it is a single hit knockdown move that already was made two frames slower in the last patch. I know it is safe against most characters but I don't see why it should be punishable at all.

No gaps in B32F2 and B32F2 should be safe against all characters on block (other characters have safe low starter strings that launch, this string only gives a knockdown and it is unsafe against some characters, I don't understand that logic)

Empty teleport should only use half stamina bar. The reason I say this is that you could still use your fbrc pressure in hellfire after an empty teleport or you could run in and initiate a 214 and still do the teleport away if it was blocked. I think that is fair and would slightly increase hellfire's pressure and mindgames without breaking him.

Armor on EX spear. Again, many other characters in this game have a (non wake up specific) armor option that leads to a combo and some of those same characters are much safer in general than scorpion who often has to take significant risks in order to get his damage. Similar to the post above this one by HuttonMD I am not saying he really "needs" this but it would be nice to have the option to spend a bar on a standing armor move that actually nets you a decent reward when you hit it.

Takedown and EX takedown should give more advantage on hit. You should at least get a decent opportunity to set up some oki if you actually hit a takedown especially since it is unsafe on block and is just a single hitting move that only does a little over a throw worth of damage.

I also would like them to fix the hitbox on 123 in combos so that it is more consistent/universal and does not whiff on smaller hitbox female characters sometimes.

I don't think any of these are unreasonable or would break the character but it would just help him to compete with the top characters in the game and give him more of a fighting chance.

I also don't think the character is bad by any means currently and Hellfire and Ninjutsu are quite good as is with just a few minor problems.

I didn't really get into inferno too much in this post because I really am not sure how to properly buff the minions without having it be too much or even potentially broken. That being said I feel that there is little reason to use Inferno as it stands now as hellfire and Ninjutsu seem to be superior in every matchup that I have played personally.

 

[youthinkyoubadyouaintbad]

He needs a punchwalk

 

[Slips]

I think that fair buffs to Scorpion would be as follows:

Safe F2 from all ranges in Ninjutsu...Since this move is the basis of literally everything that this variation does I believe it should be a safe on block move.

Safe F2 in Hellfire/Inferno...its not like its an overhead launcher, it is a single hit knockdown move that already was made two frames slower in the last patch. I know it is safe against most characters but I don't see why it should be punishable at all.

No gaps in B32F2 and B32F2 should be safe against all characters on block (other characters have safe low starter strings that launch, this string only gives a knockdown and it is unsafe against some characters, I don't understand that logic)

Empty teleport should only use half stamina bar. The reason I say this is that you could still use your fbrc pressure in hellfire after an empty teleport or you could run in and initiate a 214 and still do the teleport away if it was blocked. I think that is fair and would slightly increase hellfire's pressure and mindgames without breaking him.

Armor on EX spear. Again, many other characters in this game have a (non wake up specific) armor option that leads to a combo and some of those same characters are much safer in general than scorpion who often has to take significant risks in order to his damage. Similar to the post above this one by HuttonMD I am not saying he really "needs" this but it would be nice to have the option to spend a bar on a standing armor move that actually nets you a decent reward when you hit it.

Takedown and EX takedown should give more advantage on hit. You should at least get a decent opportunity to set up some oki if you actually hit a takedown especially since it is unsafe on block and is just a single hitting move that only does a little over a throw worth of damage.

I also would like them to fix the hitbox on 123 in combos so that it is more consistent/universal and does not whiff on smaller hitbox female characters sometimes.

I don't think any of these are unreasonable or would break the character but it would just help him to compete with the top characters in the game and give him more of a fighting chance.

I also don't think the character is bad by any means currently and Hellfire and Ninjutsu are quite good as is with just a few minor problems.

I didn't really get into inferno too much in this post because I really am not sure how to properly buff the minions without having it be too much or even potentially broken. That being said I feel that there is little reason to use Inferno as it stands now as hellfire and Ninjutsu seem to be superior in every matchup that I have played personally.

I agree with all these. Only stretch I'd say is ex spear getting armor which would be a pretty significant buff. The rest of these are simply quality of life fixes that would help a lot.

F2 being safe is huge. I feel if this doesn't happen Hellfire will eventually be the only viable variation as people learn the matchup. Every character in the game has a form of offense that functions well. Whether it's a 50/50, pressure game or strike/throw game, they at least they have one option that isn't punishable.

Not the case for Scorp unless you count b121 which doesn't do much damage and knocks his opponent full screen. I've been trying to hit confirm b12 into spear but it's pretty damn hard to do. And even if you can it's pretty easy to avoid with jumps and backdashes unlike f2 which I end up doing anyway since it covers so much basis.

None of this will happen anytime soon even if we get what we want. Buckle down and deal with it I guess. I've been doing it this long, might as well keep going.

 

[wa_black]

So in his current state, what is the proper way to play Ninjutsu to his maximum potential?

 

[Matix218]

So in his current state, what is the proper way to play Ninjutsu to his maximum potential?

I mean it is obviously dependent on the specific matchup but in general I would say the following:

Precise spacing of F2 and establishing the range of F2 in the footsie game (which will cause opponents to block when in or just outside of F2 range which opens up the opportunity for MANY throws)

Whiff punishing with F2 and B2

Once establishing F2 in Oki and making the opponent respect that it can eat their armored wakeups they will be very likely to block instead of waking up which allows you to pressure or throw or tick-throw or even go for a OH/Low mixup (although the only overhead you have in Ninj is f4 which is quite slow so usually this may not be something you want to do regularly)

Those are the main game plans when it comes to things specific to Ninjutsu. Also remember he has an improved NJP and also has the 212 string for hard knockdowns

 

[wa_black]

I mean it is obviously dependent on the specific matchup but in general I would say the following:

Precise spacing of F2 and establishing the range of F2 in the footsie game (which will cause opponents to block when in or just outside of F2 range which opens up the opportunity for MANY throws)

Whiff punishing with F2 and B2

Once establishing F2 in Oki and making the opponent respect that it can eat their armored wakeups they will be very likely to block instead of waking up which allows you to pressure or throw or tick-throw or even go for a OH/Low mixup (although the only overhead you have in Ninj is f4 which is quite slow so usually this may not be something you want to do regularly)

Those are the main game plans when it comes to things specific to Ninjutsu. Also remember he has an improved NJP and also has the 212 string for hard knockdowns

If they delay wake up f2, are we safe? I know that f2 is good for whiff punished pursuing strings like erran black's strings of punches, but what are some good ways to set up whiffs ranges? I ask because I assume the opponent will know that is our goal.

 

[Matix218]

If they delay wake up f2, are we safe? I know that f2 is good for whiff punished pursuing strings like erran black's strings of punches, but what are some good ways to set up whiffs ranges? I ask because I assume the opponent will know that is our goal.

When you say "if they delay wake up F2 are we safe?" do you mean if the opponent delays the timing of their wake up attack and you threw out your f2 before they initiated the wake up attack? If you hit the f2 when they are attempting to wake up when their armor frames are active the fast two hits of f2 will beat their wake up even if they initiate it on a slight delay. Maybe I am not understanding the question and someone else can answer better lol

If you are saying if they delay waking up and just lay there and then block and you throw out f2 it would depend on the character and range if you are safe or not.

Regarding your question about good ways to set up whiff ranges against your opponent that all comes down to your neutral spacing. If you know a specific matchup or character (like for example the one you mentioned which is Erron Black) you will learn the max range of that string of punches (11212 or whatever the input is for that string) and you will want to try to stay at the tip of the range where that string will be just slightly out of range if he throws it out so that you can whiff punish it if you are looking to bait a whiff on that specific move. Basically that is not MKX or even Ninjutsu Scorp specific stuff that is just learning the spacing on your opponent's characters best moves which is pretty universal to fighting games in general. The main thing is that Ninjutsu Scorp has one of those moves that your opponent will constantly be trying to space a whiff on as well (F2) so the dance with ragards to Ninjutsu's neutral/footsie game is basically you trying to keep your opponent in the range where F2 is a threat but still safe to throw out and your opponent trying to be just outside of that range (or in the case of a solid rushdown character like cassie or lao they would prefer to be right up in your face).

I am not a professional player or anything and players that are fighting game gurus like @Slips can probably explain more detailed or technical answers to your questions but hopefully what I am saying makes sense lol

 

[IrishMantis]

Thought of something that might be a bit controversial

This variation is a space control based, but you can be punished but some chars

But what if the first hit off f2 had a decent hit advantage increase.

Enough to where you can do F2 tele cancel and have enough frames to link 1, would this be unnecessary or too much?

 

[HuttonMD]

Is there certain armor wake ups that f2 won't break the armor on?

 

[wa_black]

Is there certain armor wake ups that f2 won't break the armor on?

The gap is 10 frames, so you can trade with start ups of 10 and beat out anything slower. I believe the gap for b4 is 7 frames, so you can beat out more with b4, not recommended.

On that note, should b4 be safe-r?

 

[Bomborge]

The gap is 10 frames, so you can trade with start ups of 10 and beat out anything slower. I believe the gap for b4 is 7 frames, so you can beat out more with b4, not recommended.

On that note, should b4 be safe-r?

Absolutely not for b4 being safer. It'd be a little silly for something that can break armor that fast to be safe.

 

[Ze Dingo]

Per one of the replies above I believe the combo is

B12, spear, walk back, f2, b2, b2, jk, tele, 212?

They didn't fully notate it but I think that was the combo

Yeah, sorry about that, lol.

But you're right, that's the combo. It doesn't provide much oki but you can run up and bait a wake up.

Edit: Just noticed that you can do 3 B2s if spaced correctly. So, walk back F2,B2,B2,B2 JK~Tele, 212 works after B3~Spear or B12~Spear. @Matix218

None of this will happen anytime soon even if we get what we want. Buckle down and deal with it I guess. I've been doing it this long, might as well keep going.

Man, trust me, you're an inspiration to us all. Watching what you did with MK9 Scorpion was what made me stick with the character through thick and thin

 

[Matix218]

The gap is 10 frames, so you can trade with start ups of 10 and beat out anything slower. I believe the gap for b4 is 7 frames, so you can beat out more with b4, not recommended.

On that note, should b4 be safe-r?

Thats one thing I forgot in my reasonable scorpion buffs post, I do think b4 in Ninjitsu should be safe as well because currently there is no reason to use it over f2 since it is so negative on block and the reward is so much less if you hit it

 

[Tony at Home]

Mid tier characters do not qualify for buffs. Stop.

 

[Matix218]

Mid tier characters do not qualify for buffs. Stop.

But top tier characters like quan can get 6 frame poke buffs?

 

[Tony at Home]

But top tier characters like quan can get 6 frame poke buffs?

That was a dumb buff. What's the logic behind "hey, we gave one character a boatload of unnecessary horrible buffs, why not the entire cast????"

Like seriously, are we really basing our balance standards on Quan Chi?????

 

[Eddy Wang]

That was a dumb buff. What's the logic behind "hey, we gave one character a boatload of unnecessary horrible buffs, why not the entire cast????"

Like seriously, are we really basing our balance standards on Quan Chi?????

No, but Scorpion needs buffs

 

[HuttonMD]

Mid tier characters do not qualify for buffs. Stop.

Everyone has said that he doesn't necessarily need them but they would be nice. your acting like we have a buff scorpion campaign going on in here when that is clearly not the case