General/Other - Ancestral Ancestral Variation Discussion Thread

[RM NoBrows]

He's fun but there's barely any, if any at all, matchups you would use him over either of the other two. Sucks but maybe if they listened to us the variation system would look a bit better. Ancestral's only change being a crouching stance for low arrow is a joke.

I only play ancestral with King Jin. Fuck bojitsu and I'm not a fan of shaolin

 

[Youphemism]

I only play ancestral with King Jin. Fuck bojitsu and I'm not a fan of shaolin

I'm the same, although I'll very rarely also bust out the Bojutsu if I get him in random select lol

 

[Youphemism]

Updated the OP. Finished off some notes, updated some stuff for MKXL and added some stuff too.

 

[Skedar70]

Updated the OP. Finished off some notes, updated some stuff for MKXL and added some stuff too.

Thanks for the effort I will pick up this guy again just for fun.

 

[PetulantWaste]

Ancestral Kung Jin really grew on me. Without an armored launcher or charge arrows he's still a bit underpowered but he's still fun as hell to play. I hope they give him one or the other in the next patch. Hell, I'd even settle for an extra 3 seconds on the arrow timer.

 

[Youphemism]

Ancestral Kung Jin really grew on me. Without an armored launcher or charge arrows he's still a bit underpowered but he's still fun as hell to play. I hope they give him one or the other in the next patch. Hell, I'd even settle for an extra 3 seconds on the arrow timer.

He doesn't need an armoured launcher, he'd be ridiculous with one lol. He already has safe armour anyway which leads to a safe arrow reload. What do you mean by charge arrows? Tbh they should just do away with the stun timer.

 

[PetulantWaste]

By charge i mean I'm in agreement that they should remove the timers or at least extend them.

After playing with him for a couple of weeks I've realized that he's nowhere near as bad as I thought but his non-arrow loaded combos are trash. Armored launcher would be too much i guess but in think making ex straight arrow + enough for a follow up on hit or eliminating push back on it would balance his play as long as there isnt enough advantage to follow up into stun arrow.

 

[Youphemism]

By charge i mean I'm in agreement that they should remove the timers or at least extend them.

After playing with him for a couple of weeks I've realized that he's nowhere near as bad as I thought but his non-arrow loaded combos are trash. Armored launcher would be too much i guess but in think making ex straight arrow + enough for a follow up on hit or eliminating push back on it would balance his play as long as there isnt enough advantage to follow up into stun arrow.

That's not how the mechanics of this game work though, making ex straight arrow more plus on hit won't let you combo from it. His non-arrow loaded combos are what you use to load an arrow then set up oki, and they should be as mediocre as they are because his damage WITH arrows is great.

 

[TackyHaddock]

Pig mentioned something in one of his youtube videos about low arrow being plus 14 on block if "executed instantly"
was anyone aware of this?

 

[Kickbykick]

low arrow or ex air oh arrow? please explain

 

[TackyHaddock]

low arrow or ex air oh arrow? please explain

I'm not sure exactly what he was referring to - i thought he was just referring to DD2, but he may have been referring to it when done in the air. It was a passing reference that I was unclear about which is why I posted here.

 

[Kickbykick]

its probably ex oh arrow

 

[PetulantWaste]

Pig mentioned something in one of his youtube videos about low arrow being plus 14 on block if "executed instantly"
was anyone aware of this?

I heard that as well but I ve neither tested it myself nor seen it utilized in a match. I'll test it out tonight.

 

[PetulantWaste]

I'm not sure exactly what he was referring to - i thought he was just referring to DD2, but he may have been referring to it when done in the air. It was a passing reference that I was unclear about which is why I posted here.

Just tested it at home. The frame data for regular close arrow is -16 on block but if you do it close enough to the ground it is safe but not plus. I was able to successfully block icy slide 90 percent of the time. The frame data for ex close air arrow says its supposed to be +3 on block but if you do it close enough to the ground you can make it ~+10 because I could jail into 343 against icy slide. Maybe i didn't execute it properly but i don't see a way to make regular close air arrow +14. The best i could do is make it safe.

 

[Kickbykick]

You can make normal air oh arrow like -2 to -3. The ex one is up to +14. It jails into b1

 

[Youphemism]

Yeah it's instant air ex down arrow that's roughly +14 and it's been known for a while. I think it's alright but it's not going to win Ancestral matches or anything. Better saving the bar for armour or breakers imo. This community is just really good at seeing some good tool and overhyping it until they realise how useful it actually is lol

 

[TackyHaddock]

Yeah it's instant air ex down arrow that's roughly +14 and it's been known for a while. I think it's alright but it's not going to win Ancestral matches or anything. Better saving the bar for armour or breakers imo. This community is just really good at seeing some good tool and overhyping it until they realise how useful it actually is lol

Do you think ancestral would be as good as shaolin if they removed the timer from stun arrow?

 

[Youphemism]

Do you think ancestral would be as good as shaolin if they removed the timer from stun arrow?

Meh probably not, but that and less recovery on the meterelss versions of his Ancestral-specific arrows are all it needs imo to be a more viable choice in some matchups. It's unlikely to ever really be as good as Shaolin since Shaolin just has better tools like better meter building and safety from any blockstring but it's still solid since Kung Jin himself is solid.

 

[ILuvFightGames]

So if I do b14~load stun arrow won't that guarantee me a 50/50 to hit with the already loaded stun arrow since after the load I can either do f2 for an oh or b1 (I think, the hit where he hits low)? I'm saying b14, cancel into stun arrow, then I'd be in the position to do an overhead or low canceled into the stun arrow? Is this not a guaranteed 50/50?

 

[Scott The Scot]

So if I do b14~load stun arrow won't that guarantee me a 50/50 to hit with the already loaded stun arrow since after the load I can either do f2 for an oh or b1 (I think, the hit where he hits low)? I'm saying b14, cancel into stun arrow, then I'd be in the position to do an overhead or low canceled into the stun arrow? Is this not a guaranteed 50/50?

The frame data would suggest that on hit or block, no.

@Youphemism In this thread you have B14 listed as -4 on hit but in your thread you have it listed as +1. Which one is it? Not that I'm going to play the variation, I just noticed that they're listed differently lol.

 

[Youphemism]

So if I do b14~load stun arrow won't that guarantee me a 50/50 to hit with the already loaded stun arrow since after the load I can either do f2 for an oh or b1 (I think, the hit where he hits low)? I'm saying b14, cancel into stun arrow, then I'd be in the position to do an overhead or low canceled into the stun arrow? Is this not a guaranteed 50/50?

No, there's not enough hit advantage to guarantee a 50/50. You can see it just by doing the jump test, the opponent jumps almost at the same time as you which means you don't have much advantage.
You can see how much advantage moves have when cancelled into reload on hit and block in this thread I made https://testyourmight.com/threads/ancestral-load-arrow-cancel-frame-data.56030/

The frame data would suggest that on hit or block, no.

@Youphemism In this thread you have B14 listed as -4 on hit but in your thread you have it listed as +1. Which one is it? Not that I'm going to play the variation, I just noticed that they're listed differently lol.

The frame data thread is right.

 

[tatterbug4]

with stun arrow loaded) J2, 343~DD2, DD1, run cancel~J2~air DD2, run cancel~34, instant air D4, 34~DD2

You know I thought I had great execution but what the heck? The run cancel 34 after the overhead fire arrow has to be near impossible

 

[RM NoBrows]

Bump. What do you guys think about ancestral now?

I think it still may be his worst variation but it's too early to tell with the new patch. But with the changes he got, I believe he is much more viable. Straight fire arrow being completely safe is huge and the block stun and pushback it gives, he can zone much better with IA arrow, low arrow and ia straight arrow. And an extra 60 frames of the arrow timers is extremely helpful too

 

[Masta]

with stun arrow loaded) J2, 343~DD2, DD1, run cancel~J2~air DD2, run cancel~34, instant air D4, 34~DD2

You know I thought I had great execution but what the heck? The run cancel 34 after the overhead fire arrow has to be near impossible

I would know aswell what is the "trick" to execute this combo

 

[RM NoBrows]

with stun arrow loaded) J2, 343~DD2, DD1, run cancel~J2~air DD2, run cancel~34, instant air D4, 34~DD2

You know I thought I had great execution but what the heck? The run cancel 34 after the overhead fire arrow has to be near impossible

Just practice. And that combo is near impossible to get in a game. The run in 34 after OH arrow is way easier to connect off of f14, b14 stun arrow