Question - Grandmaster An unusual buff to GM SZ

[FL Rushdown]

So uh, since when is "make my move safer/better" an unusual buff request?

 

[RVB]

So uh, since when is "make my move safer/better" an unusual buff request?

Since nobody has ever suggested to move SZ a lil further from the klone so he doesn't eat a free meterless combo... at least to my knowledge.

 

[AcMilan91]

when you know b2 is punsihable so hard, i actually like to play against Subby ,btw its hard when you are in corner ,but when he is in corner against me,he is dead like me otherwise

 

[RVB]

when you know b2 is punsihable so hard, i actually like to play against Subby ,btw its hard when you are in corner ,but when he is in corner against me,he is dead like me otherwise

Crazy corner game for both characters, undeniable

Remember back in the day Nikola? Some of the best matches I ever had were against your Jax, I didn't give 2 shits about the matchup and neither did you and we had lots of fun. Nowadays it's considered a sin to play a 6-4 in your disfavor.

 

[LaidbackOne]

The problem isn't that Jax can't punish unsafe klone cancels or that Jax can't do much when the klone is out... it's that YOU can't punish unsafe klones and that YOU can't do much when the klone is out.

Ask @karaokelove or @AcMilan91 or any other player that has been a Jax loyalist and they will tell you that the matchup is 6-4 in favor of SuB Zero and like with any other 6-4 losing matchup you need to play a more patient and tight game with emphasis on defense and trip guarding to compensate.
SZ isn't the one putting you in the klone YOU are putting yourself in the klone by either jumping too much, being overly aggressive and not spacing yourself properly.

I'm gonna go on a little rant here for you and the rest of the "OMG the matchup is too hard" possy...

It goes like this... the final patch for MK9 is out and I decide to finally buy MK9 on 360 to see if the game was worth all that high praise that people were giving it.

I spent the next 3 YEARS playing a SEA of Kabal, Cyrax, Smoke, Kenshi and Kitana with ONLY Sub Zero as my main,there was no " OMG the matchup is too hard' going on in my head ONLY "how do I play to turn the tables in this match".
All this whining about matchups and no one EVER considers the fact that the player is STILL the deciding factor in the match NO MATTER WHAT THE ODDS ARE.

If there's a bad matchup you try and dissect it and see where the problem is and what viable solutions are there and THAT IS WHAT I'M CALLING FOR, OPEN UNBIASED DISCUSSION and what I'm getting in return is snarky posts from frustrated people.
Not to say that all the post here are like that, but some are and they have no purpose other than clutter the thread with nonsense.

Well keep on hating the klone guys... you're doing God's work

Isnt ACmillan the guy who started learning Jax? IMO unless you can do IAGP all day its 7-3 for Subby

 

[thlityoursloat]

Jax's corner game is GREAT but please don't compare it to GM's....

 

[flappysamyhamy]

Wah wah dvorah doesn't care about clone.
Now do you know what Jax, non Slasher Jason, Kano, BRC and LF feel against GM?
Sorry your character has matchups worse than 5-5, it must be such a struggle.


E: I also still don't get why you won't just hit confirm and refrain from doing UNSAFE CLONE CANCELS AGAINST CHARACTERS WHO PUNISH.
you don't see Reptile players complaining about people punishing their slide when they fail to hit confitm, do you?

Sub does not beat brc, And slasher gets the same treatment

 

[flappysamyhamy]

I like the idea, and as much as I would love all these buffs and adjustments to make my character as good as the top tiers, that is really over the top.

That would take away any sort of bait/Mindgame against a ton of characters, and would take away a good portion of the cast's ability to punish it.

Clone cancels should not be safe, that just makes no sense. I do think he could use a few tweaks without going completely over the top, such as a 7f d1, even a faster d2 is a luxury he doesn't need. He is already a solid character and his only real problems are the characters with insane range or overwhelming tools that simultaneously destroy clone.

If a patch were to drop with More than needed adjustments to GM, along with nerfs to his real problems, (The characters) You will create a monstrosity of a character with almost no flaws and that isn't what anyone wants...

All I want is a faster poke lol

 

[Revenant Zero]

Amen to a faster poke.
Never in my life did I feel the #SubStruggle more than getting low poked trying to punish Raiden or Ermac.

 

[blue dragon]

Why GM is good... This is the GM flow chart.

Try a 50/50 or safe string/stagger into Frost Bomb counter to get the one or two combos needed to carry them to the corner. Proceed to guess between throw, overhead or low as most wake ups will get blown up and jumping out isn't an option.

Thank you, I will put in some serious lab time on hard practice mode and really make a serious effort over a long period of time and apply your flow chart, and if Ican get that down I will proceed to corner clone kombos, I do appreciate the to the point flow chart you described

 

[Dankster Morgan]

Sub does not beat brc

Yes, thank you

 

[Tweedy]

Jax's corner game is GREAT but please don't compare it to GM's....

Outside of HW Jax cannot launch without being super punishable. GM Sub guesses wrong against Jax and many other characters, who cares.

Like you said, it's not comparable.

 

[AcMilan91]

Crazy corner game for both characters, undeniable

Remember back in the day Nikola? Some of the best matches I ever had were against your Jax, I didn't give 2 shits about the matchup and neither did you and we had lots of fun. Nowadays it's considered a sin to play a 6-4 in your disfavor.

Yeah, we should play again, i am still on steam

 

[omooba]

don't think GM needs anything

Sub does not beat brc

why

 

[llabslb]

GM in general requires a stupid and a braindead play style. By design GM is a character that wants to bait you into your death by positioning and timing the clone accordingly. He's not built to survive without the clone (look at his other two variations) rather than just making clone adjustments and fixes to further support his braindead GM playstyle that only works in the match ups he's extremely dominant make some adjustments that helps him and the rest of the cast. I also think it's highly inconsiderate to straight up buff the clone the way you mentioned. His meta needs to be slightly changed, GM is a defensive powerhouse because of the way the clone works but it does needs a few adjustments so he's not such an unreliable character and will give characters that get destroyed by by him more of a fighting chance. I've also previously said that I hate the idea of 50/50's that lead into full combos.Here are some brief adjustments I think should be made:

Adjustments to the clone: Give his MK9 clone back, this will allow characters who get wrecked by him more of a chance to play neutral with him while he can carry on playing his defensive play style. Shatter combos and clone toss should still exist.

Adjustments to his move set:

F42: becomes -2 on block (from -7) but the cancel window should be increased to prevent the potential birth of another clone set up. I also think the F4(2) should have toned down priority.

B1: Becomes 9f and be +1 on block and B12 become -4

B3: This should be made 11f. B3 itself should be made 0 on block while B33 maintains its usual block advantage.

12: The block advantage of this should be made -3 (down from -6)

B2: Although I've said I hate the idea of full combo 50/50s, I honestly don't know how to approach adjusting his B2. While most of GMs filth comes from what he can do in the corner, this normal contributes a lot to his game plan in the corner. What I had in mind initially was this:

Make a sort of return of his MK9 B2. Cancelable and when fully charged it leads to a combo.

Jump ins: I don't have much to say about this. His jump ins are dumb to AA, give them the adjustments they deserve.

Luxury buff for unbreakable: like tremors flash parry, F4 EX AURA, F4 EX AURA should be a thing. If possible, it should some how be turned into a cancel input simply because I like cancels.

 

[flappysamyhamy]

don't think GM needs anything

why

Maybe you didn't know this but bartitsu can punish a good portion of clone cancels with f1, He can d4 through clone at a ton of ranges, he handles the matchup really well.

Drunken master can roll around the clone kinda, but it's still prob trash. Bartitsu is the way to go in the mu.

Up close Bartitsu wins because off his offense and the fact that sub can't clone in his face, destroys any chance of GM doing anything really. Sub can keep away though, which is very difficult for bo. 5-5 if you are patient and lame enough but 6-4 in Bo's favor if not, and that is a hard adjustment for some players to make, But bo definitely does not lose the mu that's kinda wack

 

[omooba]

Maybe you didn't know this but bartitsu can punish a good portion of clone cancels with f1, He can d4 through clone at a ton of ranges, he handles the matchup really well.

Drunken master can roll around the clone kinda, but it's still prob trash. Bartitsu is the way to go in the mu.

Up close Bartitsu wins because off his offense and the fact that sub can't clone in his face, destroys any chance of GM doing anything really. Sub can keep away though, which is very difficult for bo. 5-5 if you are patient and lame enough but 6-4 in Bo's favor if not, and that is a hard adjustment for some players to make, But bo definitely does not lose the mu that's kinda wack

yeah for some reason i forgot bartitsu was a variation.

 

[MadeOfMetal]

personally i think this could be a good idea. and as far as i see it i have no bias against most characters being one who plays with most of them equally with obvious favorites like Cyrax, Cyber Sub Zero, Mileena, Jason, Alien and Cassie. But with that said i do use all of them and im not for one and against another. I am in the market of making every character as good as they can be while still keeping them fair. What i do see on TYM is a wide range of diversity of ways of thinking especially on the topic of character placement and characters moves usefulness. Sum players struggle against D'vorah and some struggle against Sub Zero and many struggle with others, but almost everyone on here think differently of the same character.

On one hand i feel Sub Zero is a very good character, and on another hand i feel he struggles against Females in general among many other matchups with long range moves. having the clone place him a bit further back is not an unwarranted request or outlandish in my opinion. In my view no one should be able to poke through normal or normal-special through any clone placed anywhere unless you are so close to sub it cancels it out. and OFC armor should take a hit and break it, but beyond that D'vorah, Cassie, Kung Jin, Alien, and any other character should not be using moves that go through clone to hit opponent without being frozen. Sub zero has always frozen any move ever since he had a clone to work with. To me its obvious that the game intends to freeze them but some have found ways around it. I do not fault NetherRealm for this error, for what game is without bugs or fault.

I would wan't some more moves in all 3 variation's some variation specific ones and some more universal, as well as this idea for Clone landing being farther back than it is now. i would say another OH in Unbreakable or a few high to overheads. and maybe a Low to OH in Cyromancer, and Grandmaster could get at least another good mid with some range or maybe some juggle catching normals added.

I am all for every character getting better and better, to me i enjoy playing each character, learning what they have each combo, each starter, baits juggles, different enders, different feels and pressing what they are capable of. to me there is nothing better than finding a cool combo with a character that was very hard to pick up for you.

 

[LaidbackOne]

No changes to the clone are needed unless they are bug fixes . The clone destroys some characters and is not as useful against others. To sum up, Subby has some bad matchups, nothing unusual.

 

[RVB]

@llabslb I'm starting to wonder what did this character do to players for them to act with such bias?

Half your post was pure subjective nonsense and the part with the buffs you mentioned is not gonna happen... especially not reverting to the MK9 klone design.
What you're asking is a complete overhaul of a character which is NOT gonna happen at this point in the game's life.
I've said this before... if SZ was meant to have better normals or strings then he would've had them by now.
At most we're gonna get that 7 frame d1.

 

[RVB]

NOW could someone please come up with a GOOD REASON why SZ being placed slightly behind the klone, AS LONG AS the forward advancing armor moves that CURRENTLY HIT STAY THAT WAY, is a bad idea???

P.S. Keep it objective, nobody wants to hear how SZ bullied you in school and that's why you think he deserves no buffs.

 

[YoloRoll1stHit]

How about, instant air klone?
Everything sounds broken if you add "instant air" into it

 

[RVB]

How about, instant air klone?
Everything sounds broken if you add "instant air" into it

Everytime you klone in MKX it has the same shape and hitbox, in MK9 that wasn't the case and that's why you had air klone available.
The jump in air klone cancel fake was baws back in the day

 

[llabslb]

Lmao, carry on playing your braindead neutral. The fact that you think having the clone spaced out even more is stupid. Adjustments I mentioned considered everyone in the cast and promoted GMs defensive play style whilst helping his other variations.

 

[boba_buster]

Not totally caught up on this thread , but I could see this idea screwing with the b2 shatter combo. Just something to think about