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Question - Grandmaster An unusual buff to GM SZ

RVB

twitch.tv/rvblacktail
Everyone is speculating about this new MKX patch so I figured I'd make a somewhat unusual "buff" request for GM SZ.
No it's not faster pokes or klone staying on block, none of that is gonna happen anyway and female hitboxes are gonna stay the way they are.
Also weapons or extra limbs getting a hitbox is just a delusion at this point so don't bank on me requesting that.

That MK9 thread going on right now got me thinking about how the klone worked in that game and I though to myself what if the MKX klone positioned SZ further back from it, like it did in MK9.

SZ would still be unsafe after a klone cancel so that forward advancing armor could punish the klone but it would make matchups like D'Vorah easier where you're not eating a meterless combo if you klone cancel after a string.
Using D'Vorah as an example again imagine the Klone positioning you just slightly out off the D4 range.

Tell me if you think this could work or why you think it wouldn't help SZ at all.
 

Dankster Morgan

It is better this way
I like the idea of that. But I think Sub-Zero is just really flawed from a design standpoint. I whole heartedly believe that Sub was designed with Grandmaster in mind and the other variations are very much an afterthought. He wasn't created for the versatility of the variation system. So here is the thing: what makes Sub-Zero good is the amazing tools in the Grandmaster variation that make up for the lackluster variation less Sub-Zero, but the other two variations don't have something like the Ice Klone to protect his weaknesses. The other two variations would need a complete overhaul in my opinion, which will never happen. So that leaves variation less Sub-Zero, who if was given too much would make Grandmaster broken. So he is kind of left stagnant. The only healthy changes for Sub-Zero that can be made imo is a 7 frame poke, and a nerf to the top tier, and have some of his strings like 114 and shit tweaked a bit.
 
i dont think that most of you people who just started playing fighting games with mortal kombat x, realize that there are just natural bad matches in the fighting games.

there are characters that deal with other characters easily or have harder time.

every single fighting game that is played competitively has characters that have losing and winning matches, and just because subzero loses to dvorah it does not mean that he needs buffs.

lets make an example of what needs buffs or needed buffs alright? well for example ethereal mileenas ex teleport, it was exactly the same as the regular one, also her universal sky drop, it was -8 on hit, so stuff like that needs buffs, and not matchup specifics.

yet again i will be portrayed as an asshole for saying that it is okay for a fighting game characters to have bad matchups, and its bias should not be a key factor of determining whether character is strong, balanced or weak. because grand master sub is still very solid.

edit

to answer your question this buff would make subzero idiotic, because with reversal armor of some characters would not reach... hopefully you can use your brain and think of the outcome
 

Dankster Morgan

It is better this way
i dont think that most of you people who just started playing fighting games with mortal kombat x, realize that there are just natural bad matches in the fighting games.

there are characters that deal with other characters easily or have harder time.

every single fighting game that is played competitively has characters that have losing and winning matches, and just because subzero loses to dvorah it does not mean that he needs buffs.

lets make an example of what needs buffs or needed buffs alright? well for example ethereal mileenas ex teleport, it was exactly the same as the regular one, also her universal sky drop, it was -8 on hit, so stuff like that needs buffs, and not matchup specifics.

yet again i will be portrayed as an asshole for saying that it is okay for a fighting game to have bad matchups, and its bias should not be a key factor of determining whether character is strong, balanced or weak. because grand master sub is still very solid.
None of us think GM Sub is bad. He is very good.
 
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RVB

twitch.tv/rvblacktail
i dont think that most of you people who just started playing fighting games with mortal kombat x, realize that there are just natural bad matches in the fighting games.

there are characters that deal with other characters easily or have harder time.

every single fighting game that is played competitively has characters that have losing and winning matches, and just because subzero loses to dvorah it does not mean that he needs buffs.

lets make an example of what needs buffs or needed buffs alright? well for example ethereal mileenas ex teleport, it was exactly the same as the regular one, also her universal sky drop, it was -8 on hit, so stuff like that needs buffs, and not matchup specifics.

yet again i will be portrayed as an asshole for saying that it is okay for a fighting game to have bad matchups, and its bias should not be a key factor of determining whether character is strong, balanced or weak. because grand master sub is still very solid.
you're not sounding like an asshole for trying to explain your point, you DO sound like an asshole when you label me as part off "you people who just started playing fighting games with mortal kombat x"

To address your point, my request is not specific to D'Vorah but IMO if implemented correctly, this could help with a lot more of his 7-3 matchups without affecting his equal or winning matchups. I understand the fact that losing matchups will always exist but I see no fault in trying to find ways to lessen them without making a character boken in his winning matchups. Isn't that what balance is?
 

RVB

twitch.tv/rvblacktail
edit

to answer your question this buff would make subzero idiotic, because with reversal armor of some characters would not reach... hopefully you can use your brain and think of the outcome
yes that came across my mind where if spaced too far from the klone certain advancing armor would not reach but that's not what i'm asking for is it ?
Could you name these characters for me please since you brought them up ?
 
yes that came across my mind where if spaced too far from the klone certain advancing armor would not reach but that's not what i'm asking for is it ?
Could you name these characters for me please since you brought them up ?
Can I ask why everyone thinks gm is so great, granted iam new, but I personally feel very comfortable with cryo and do not like using gm at all, cryo has 111 he has a juggle in db2+r2 where you can really extend the kombo with damage, his cold blooded is cancellable into all special moves, if there is something iam really missing about gm would you be kind enough to explain, it would be much appreciated for me I would like to cryo have a faster d2, d1, d3 or b33 and give him a basic move and a basic kombo move with positive block advantage
 

hkriderz

Lin Kuei Scum, yellow robot enthusiast
Can I ask why everyone thinks gm is so great, granted iam new, but I personally feel very comfortable with cryo and do not like using gm at all, cryo has 111 he has a juggle in db2+r2 where you can really extend the kombo with damage, his cold blooded is cancellable into all special moves, if there is something iam really missing about gm would you be kind enough to explain, it would be much appreciated for me I would like to cryo have a faster d2, d1, d3 or b33 and give him a basic move and a basic kombo move with positive block advantage
GM has a clone. Game over, he wins.








Ok ok. GMs clone is one of the strongest moves in the game. It gives sub zero godlike neutral besides characters that go through it. It is an automatic keep away tool, cannot be jumped, leads to corner carry, can straight up be abused in some matchups like Jax, acts as a pseudo safe parry on wake up, ex clone is safe and armored, has infinite setups, and gives sub zero great safety in neutral which cryo does not have.

Oh did I mention, it's freaking terrifying?! People who do not play disjointed hitbox characters are terrified of the clone. It has a very commanding presence on screen.

That's only 30% of the use. The corner is the other 70% and I'm sure I don't have to explain myself here. Scour the forums for everyone's salt on his corner clone game.
 

hkriderz

Lin Kuei Scum, yellow robot enthusiast
yes that came across my mind where if spaced too far from the klone certain advancing armor would not reach but that's not what i'm asking for is it ?
Could you name these characters for me please since you brought them up ?
Mileenas ex roll. B33 clone is safe against it and every cancel would be safe if that got buffed.

But kill that bitch, Lord Paulo I hate that matchup
 
Can I ask why everyone thinks gm is so great, granted iam new, but I personally feel very comfortable with cryo and do not like using gm at all, cryo has 111 he has a juggle in db2+r2 where you can really extend the kombo with damage, his cold blooded is cancellable into all special moves, if there is something iam really missing about gm would you be kind enough to explain, it would be much appreciated for me I would like to cryo have a faster d2, d1, d3 or b33 and give him a basic move and a basic kombo move with positive block advantage
Why GM is good... This is the GM flow chart.

Try a 50/50 or safe string/stagger into Frost Bomb counter to get the one or two combos needed to carry them to the corner. Proceed to guess between throw, overhead or low as most wake ups will get blown up and jumping out isn't an option.
 

ChatterBox

Searching for an alt.
I came here hoping to see air Klone! feelsbadman

I like your idea though, it would be helpful to his keep away game in general, which MKX needs more of.
 

llabslb

R1D1_998
Personally, I think his clone should be able to walk around the screen while maintaining its regular properties and freeze the opponent. The recovery should be reduced...you know what. Fuck that, make it plus and make sure his clone is also able to make a clone so it doesn't feel lonely. In fact, let's have him able to make a clone party. So as soon as GM inputs DB2 we will see a party of clones all happily dancing to music (while creating space) this will then create like a trance effect on the opponent, then they'll try join in on the party but end up getting frozen and eat a full combo.

Anyone that says anything else is up playing scum and really should reevaluate their neutral.

Spacing.
 

RVB

twitch.tv/rvblacktail
Mileenas ex roll. B33 clone is safe against it and every cancel would be safe if that got buffed.

But kill that bitch, Lord Paulo I hate that matchup
Yeah but Mileena doesn't care about the klone cancel, doesn't telekick on reaction catch sz in recovery?
I don't have the game to test these things out, I'm just throwing an idea out there that I haven't seen brought up, in regards to the buff thread.

This part is for everyone reading the thread!
To clarify things I don't want the klone cancel to be safe, just SZ to be put a little further back with the forward advancing armor that CURRENTLY connects REMAINING that way.
You'd be able to back dash from the klone and avoid things like D'Vorahs pincers, Takedas lashes etc ,instead of trying to backdash and still getting hit.
Feel free to discuss the idea further.
 

RVB

twitch.tv/rvblacktail
I came here hoping to see air Klone! feelsbadman

I like your idea though, it would be helpful to his keep away game in general, which MKX needs more of.
They went out of their way to take away Air Klone and Klone staying on block so for me requesting that as a buff is a waste of time :(
 

hkriderz

Lin Kuei Scum, yellow robot enthusiast
Yeah but Mileena doesn't care about the klone cancel, doesn't telekick on reaction catch sz in recovery?
I don't have the game to test these things out, I'm just throwing an idea out there that I haven't seen brought up, in regards to the buff thread.

This part is for everyone reading the thread!
To clarify things I don't want the klone cancel to be safe, just SZ to be put a little further back with the forward advancing armor that CURRENTLY connects REMAINING that way.
You'd be able to back dash from the klone and avoid things like D'Vorahs pincers, Takedas lashes etc ,instead of trying to backdash and still getting hit.
Feel free to discuss the idea further.
oh no yeah mileena doesn't care. I've played that mu countless times, ex roll is not her only option. I was jus throwing out an armored move that would be affected.

Since NRS haven't done anything and won't do anything to actually fix grandmaster sub zero, I guess more distance might not be so bad if that was given. Since everything else he needs (YES HE DOES NEED THINGS TYM) he won't be given.
 

RVB

twitch.tv/rvblacktail
oh no yeah mileena doesn't care. I've played that mu countless times, ex roll is not her only option. I was jus throwing out an armored move that would be affected.

Since NRS haven't done anything and won't do anything to actually fix grandmaster sub zero, I guess more distance might not be so bad if that was given. Since everything else he needs (YES HE DOES NEED THINGS TYM) he won't be given.
^funny how certain people on TYM are willing to discuss things... but others are well off just saying "bad matchup nothing to be done" and move on.
No wonder NRS games have shitty balance, nobody discusses anything around here without drama and "asshole" remarks.
 

THTB

Arez | Booya | Riu48 - Rest Easy, Friends
I like the idea of that. But I think Sub-Zero is just really flawed from a design standpoint. I whole heartedly believe that Sub was designed with Grandmaster in mind and the other variations are very much an afterthought. He wasn't created for the versatility of the variation system. So here is the thing: what makes Sub-Zero good is the amazing tools in the Grandmaster variation that make up for the lackluster variation less Sub-Zero, but the other two variations don't have something like the Ice Klone to protect his weaknesses. The other two variations would need a complete overhaul in my opinion, which will never happen. So that leaves variation less Sub-Zero, who if was given too much would make Grandmaster broken. So he is kind of left stagnant. The only healthy changes for Sub-Zero that can be made imo is a 7 frame poke, and a nerf to the top tier, and have some of his strings like 114 and shit tweaked a bit.
He'd have to be made into a solid character with some nerfs on Grandmaster in order to fix him.
 

hkriderz

Lin Kuei Scum, yellow robot enthusiast
^funny how certain people on TYM are willing to discuss things... but others are well off just saying "bad matchup nothing to be done" and move on.
No wonder NRS games have shitty balance, nobody discusses anything around here without drama and "asshole" remarks.
just like the post above would show you, when it comes to Grandmaster, people get on their periods. @thlityoursloat probably hasn't touched or played GM a day in his life yet still thinks he has any idea about the Dvorah MU and how oppressive she can be or what sub needs. Still the first one to go out and rally with pitchforks against buffs. Nobody but GM mains will admit the issues or "buffs" he needs fixing. Clone hate is clone hate and scrubs will die before they see him get buffed. TYM is not the place to talk about sub zero buffs lol
 

thlityoursloat

kick kick
Wah wah dvorah doesn't care about clone.
Now do you know what Jax, non Slasher Jason, Kano, BRC and LF feel against GM?
Sorry your character has matchups worse than 5-5, it must be such a struggle.


E: I also still don't get why you won't just hit confirm and refrain from doing UNSAFE CLONE CANCELS AGAINST CHARACTERS WHO PUNISH.
you don't see Reptile players complaining about people punishing their slide when they fail to hit confitm, do you?
 
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hkriderz

Lin Kuei Scum, yellow robot enthusiast
Wah wah dvorah doesn't care about clone.
Now do you know what Jax, non Slasher Jason, Kano, BRC and LF feel against GM?
Sorry your character has matchups worse than 5-5, it must be such a struggle.


E: I also still don't get why you won't just hit confirm and refrain from doing UNSAFE CLONE CANCELS AGAINST CHARACTERS WHO PUNISH.
you don't see Reptile players complaining about people punishing their slide when they fail to hit confitm, do you?
Yes it is a struggle. I'm sure all of those characters don't struggle as much against GM as GM struggles against shaolin, alien, sonya, dvorah, mileena etc.

and WHAT hitconfirm?! You only cancel it on block and slide or ice ball on hit, and even that's mad hard off b12. You will never do it 100%. f42 doesn't combo without meter, and 123 only goes into slide midscreen AND IS THE MOST UNSAFE CANCEL. Yeah the "hitconfirmable" string is the most unsafe. And its -8 on block.

f4 clone cancel is almost un-viable in the neutral. If you misudge the distance you die because of the horrible whiff recovery.

If you clone off the block string you die. If you just end the string, you lose your turn because all of sub's strings are negative, and u still die.

Do you even know what you're saying when you say hitconfirm?
 
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