An argument for introducing "Fatal Blow" COMMAND INPUTS

[Evil Canadian]

oh no I know that guy is gonna wake up ultra

oh I blocked it and now hes dead

also probably countless safejump setups and the like to ruin wakeup fatal blow going to happen thats the kind of stuff I find on week 1

 

[Lokheit]

In this particular case I think it's nonsense because it's just artificially creating more memorization with minor execution differences but in designing games there's something to be said about input/execution difficulty. In SF2, Zangief having to do a 270 degree stick turn to do his pile driver affected his ability to to do the move in certain situations It gave the move a "tell" so to speak, maybe not a casual friendly input but it affected the gameplay. In Super Metroid, there's a challenging(at least to a new player) and incredibly useful mechanic in wall jumping that isn't required and if you didn't go a certain area in the game you might not know it exists. These moves/mechanics having an execution barrier reward players for skill and/or limit their ability to abuse them.

I think you kind of are alluding to that by saying "same results with simpler inputs" but I just want to make it clear that input complexity/execution difficulty can be used effectively in game design.

Yes I'm talking about cases where they're put for the sake of it because potato. That's a cheap way of making something harder and is completely artificial. The often refered Daigo moment 37 had nothing to do with needing to input multiple combinations, it was all about his perfect timing and clutch. In a competitive game like this, hardware shouldn't be a barrier.

Of course in some games you can have execution challenges (some game genres are 100% about executing inputs) but here there isn't a need and ideally you shouldn't even need the controller.

NRS has an habit of artificial execution difficulty:

- Command grabs requiring 3 directions (but not all of them) because potato.

- Some normals hitting multiple times with a single button, others requiring you to mash multiple buttons very fast to get the same outcome, so there aren't even rules, some are made artificially difficult for the sake of it.

- Some moves, needed for the core gameplay of a character, being specially hard to access (Jaquie's stanky leg when other characters simply had up+button inputs).

- The separate case that was wrestler Jax needing a series of perfect timed inputs including pressing all buttons at once just to get the damage every other grappler had without inputting extra stuff.

All of them could've been avoided, forcing you to mash extra buttons per combo even for basic core stuff is not what makes your game respected, it's completely artificial and unnecessary.

 

[Kroaken]

Idk about this one guys... If command grabs are challenging inputs, we're gonna be having two different discussions to begin with. And I don't say that to cast shade... I'll say this, oversimplification can hurt a game as much as complexity for complexitys sake.

 

[C-Sword]

I want them to have the same inputs as Geese's Raging Storm (better known as the pretzels)

 

[STB Sgt Reed]

Yes I'm talking about cases where they're put for the sake of it because potato.

Fucking lol. This got me!

 

[John Grizzly]

Giving them special inputs doesn't really do much of anything.

Having said that, I do think Fatal Blows should not regenerate if the attack is whiffed or blocked. I don't want to see them every single match. If you miss it, it should be gone. People will just be mashing the shit out of them online at the end of rounds.

 

[Ger187]

"It was the best of times, it was the worst of times, it was the age of wisdom, it was the age of foolishness, it was the epoch of belief, it was the epoch of incredulity, it was the season of Light, it was the season of Darkness, it was the spring of hope, it was the winter of despair, we had everything before us, we had nothing before us, we were all going direct to heaven, we were all going direct the other way - in short, the period was so far like the present period, that some of its noisiest authorities insisted on its being received, for good or for evil, in the superlative degree of comparison only. D1 should never be special cancellable."

"It was the best of times, it was the worst of times, it was the age of wisdom, it was the age of foolishness, it was the epoch of belief, it was the epoch of incredulity, it was the season of Light, it was the season of Darkness, it was the spring of hope, it was the winter of despair, we had everything before us, we had nothing before us, we were all going direct to heaven, we were all going direct the other way - in short, the period was so far like the present period, that some of its noisiest authorities insisted on its being received, for good or for evil, in the superlative degree of comparison only. D1 should never be special cancellable."

What? D1's are special cancellable??

 

[spidey300]

just no. complete waste of time post

 

[Testurmight19]

Its already bad enough we have to remember the special enhanced moves, now you wanna add more. The only thing they need to do with fatal blows is make it one and done. If you miss or get blocked, then you’re out of luck

 

[Rip Torn]

What? D1's are special cancellable??

They are but it doesn't combo.

 

[Juggs]

There’s zero point in making it a command. Either a universal one, or one that is character specific.

People have what seems to be a skewed vison on execution in fighters and the consensus is that less execution = a less skilled game competitively. Or rather, it’s a “dumbed down” version or “watered down”. That isn’t necessarily true. In fact, at times it takes away from the competitive nature of the game itself. I’m not suggesting to make every input as easy and mashable as possible, or to make every combo so easy a caveman could do it, not at all. But you don’t need complex inputs in order for a game to take a massive amount of skill and more importantly, to have a large skill gap.

I think the fear here is simple. If you make a game too simple executionally, the skill gap will be too small. I don’t believe that to be at all the case. The most important aspects of a fighting game, to me at least, are the high level competitive aspects. Which include but aren’t limited to, spacing, footsies, zoning, fundamentals, reactions, anticipation, mind games, etc. Knowing what to do in certain situations, when to punish, what to punish with, timing on jump ins, timing in general, knowing matchups, etc.

People believe that high execution weeds out the casuals and separates the pros from the noobs. Because in order to be able to have the ability to perform high execution stuff, you need to put a lot of time into being able to execute perfectly 99% of the time. And afterall, no casual is going to invest that amount of time into something as tedious as execution. But what if instead of that, instead of being required to spend a ridiculous amount of time in training mode for high executional stuff, you spent that time training in every other area I mentioned? The skill gap would still be there, it would just be ingrained in all the other areas that again, I already mentioned. I also believe it would be more encouraging for someone like a casual to put some real time into the game.

Anyway, I know your point was more specific to the fatal blows, but I just think in general high execution games, characters, combos or even moves are over glorified. I think there needs to be a medium level of execution, with some characters requiring more, and some requiring less. I could go on but you should get my point by now.

 

[Lokheit]

There’s zero point in making it a command. Either a universal one, or one that is character specific.

People have what seems to be a skewed vison on execution in fighters and the consensus is that less execution = a less skilled game competitively. Or rather, it’s a “dumbed down” version or “watered down”. That isn’t necessarily true. In fact, at times it takes away from the competitive nature of the game itself. I’m not suggesting to make every input as easy and mashable as possible, or to make every combo so easy a caveman could do it, not at all. But you don’t need complex inputs in order for a game to take a massive amount of skill and more importantly, to have a large skill gap.

I think the fear here is simple. If you make a game too simple executionally, the skill gap will be too small. I don’t believe that to be at all the case. The most important aspects of a fighting game, to me at least, are the high level competitive aspects. Which include but aren’t limited to, spacing, footsies, zoning, fundamentals, reactions, anticipation, mind games, etc. Knowing what to do in certain situations, when to punish, what to punish with, timing on jump ins, timing in general, knowing matchups, etc.

People believe that high execution weeds out the casuals and separates the pros from the noobs. Because in order to be able to have the ability to perform high execution stuff, you need to put a lot of time into being able to execute perfectly 99% of the time. And afterall, no casual is going to invest that amount of time into something as tedious as execution. But what if instead of that, instead of being required to spend a ridiculous amount of time in training mode for high executional stuff, you spent that time training in every other area I mentioned? The skill gap would still be there, it would just be ingrained in all the other areas that again, I already mentioned. I also believe it would be more encouraging for someone like a casual to put some real time into the game.

Anyway, I know your point was more specific to the fatal blows, but I just think in general high execution games, characters, combos or even moves are over glorified. I think there needs to be a medium level of execution, with some characters requiring more, and some requiring less. I could go on but you should get my point by now.

Well put.

A big example: Smash Bros has VERY EASY AND SIMPLE inputs for its attacks and special buttons, yet the amount of execution for that game and the skill gap from casual to experienced to pro is brutal. This is done again with basically everyone having B + 1 direction powers, A + 1 direction normals and aerials and tilt smash attacks. You DON'T NEED extra inputs to have a game that is respected for its execution.

 

[DeftMonk]

As a game developer I only want to say that attaching harder inputs to stuff for the sake of it when you can have the same results with simpler inputs is BLASPHEMY against everything that game design should aim at. Basically in a perfect world, you wouldn't even need hardware to transfer your thoughts to game instructions, hardware is there because it's the only way to make you connect with the game and should always be non-intrusive.

Difficulty should be on having good timing, good reactions, making reads, understanding the pace of the game, etc... Adding additional inputs just to make you press more unnecessary buttons is a HUGE design mistake (btw, I think the way moves are enhanced now are a mistake too because there was already a better system that worked, they're not even hard on their current state, but makes it harder for players to jump from one character to another).

I am gonna have to completely disagree with this. One thing that makes Sf chars legit feel different is fb and charge chars. Also when your doing bnbs that require charging to the late cancel frames of a link on purpose (otherwise u didn’t charge long enough) it feels soo fun. By ur logic, 1 button could be first two hits of a string, and another could be next 5 hits and a special if u want to hit confirm it. That is lame homie.

 

[Lokheit]

I am gonna have to completely disagree with this. One thing that makes Sf chars legit feel different is fb and charge chars. Also when your doing bnbs that require charging to the late cancel frames of a link on purpose (otherwise u didn’t charge long enough) it feels soo fun. By ur logic, 1 button could be first two hits of a string, and another could be next 5 hits and a special if u want to hit confirm it. That is lame homie.

In the quote you replied to, I say "Difficulty should be on having good timing[...]", so canceling on late frames isn't something I'm talking against. I'm talking about adding inputs to a move to say "see? we got a hardcore game with high execution" and call it a day just because a move has extra directional inputs.

Basically, if I can offset execution with hardware (special controllers to asign shortcuts, which aren't allowed in tournaments but people can use online), then that's LAME AND ARTIFICIAL difficulty. Good timing and good fundamentals can't be cheated with hardware.

But the example you put doesn't contradict what I said.