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An argument for introducing "Fatal Blow" COMMAND INPUTS

Now that "X-Rays" / "Fatal Blows" (FB) / "supers" are no longer attached to meter, are divvied automatically, regenerate after a few seconds and can be thrown out infinitely, until one lands -- effectively, guaranteeïng that these moves appear every, single round, without fear or failure -- I think the game, in this respect, runs a real risk becoming predictable; and, as a result, being rendered more boring than it could / should otherwise be. Paradoxically so, in light of all the other bells and whistles NRS have added to try move MK away from the Cirque de Juggle, die-rolling 50-50 fiesta of 'X'.

Now, let me 'inb4' the "oh!, but FB's aren't armoured on their first few frames" (...which is meaningless online and at low-to-intermediate level play) and the "yehbut, you can punish -- and at 30% HP, one punished FB wiff will end it" (...until the next round rolls around), and the Age olde favourite "hurr derr, git gud" (...*fart + follow-through*), by pointing out that, at high level play, all thus spergs of wisdom, and more, are fine and dandy + cherry-on-top DLC. However, in low, intermediate and even online play with moderate latency (i.e., what will comprise 95% of game's play time, throughout its lifespan), the cited issue could well become a real and present problem.

As such, I think an easy way in which the potential, and then predictable passade of to-and-fro FB flailing can be mitigated, could be to do, frankly, what should have always been done (with "supers" in NRS games): GIVING FATAL BLOWS A PROPER COMMAND INPUT (...as distinct from the universal non-command, LT+RT Casual Titillator 9,000).

Now, I'm not implying some Rachmaninoff's 5th style, "flight of the fumblefingers" input schemes are needed -- no. Merely some back-back-forwards or down-down-ups or down-forwards -- nothing too restrictive for casuals; yet, at the same time, something which will require enough deliberate action and consciousness (and character knowledge), that it dissuade automatically bee-lining towards said attack, the instant it becomes available; and such that it will discourage predicable negative offshoots -- e.g., backing away to the far reaches of a stage in order to run down the clock, whenever the trailing opponent reaches 30% HP (because the inevitable YOLO FB is always only a button-mash away).

What I see as a broader, fundamental problem here -- and one that is seemingly reaching a critical mass and, indeed, is evinced by the "Fatal Blow" system at hand -- is that, because of the continual simplification of gaming, certain mechanics that have been and are integral to, particularly, the fighting game genre, are now becoming difficult to implement--without them being broken, too easy, too repetitive, too exploitable etc.. Simply put, and in the case of powerful abilities in fighting games specifically, if the given ability is too easily accessible -- being it automatically granted (...like, FB's) or easily executed (...like, FB's!) -- it will inevitably be abused. This 'abuse' can be either balance-breaking, or simply just annoyingly repetitious ("Clashes", being the most recent, and egregious, analogy). That's as far as I'll elaborate about this here: as I've digressed enough, and a Tolkien-esque epic could be written on this eristic subject matter.

PS: Redundant as it is to state, I do anticipate the après moi, le déluge of "elitist scum!" style ripostes, flowing in from alumni of the 'Sirlin the Vermin Academy of Fighting Games Should All Have But A Single, Bulbous, Illuminated, Dragon's Lair Button to Play, and Still Be Playable at Competitive Levels... While Maintaining a Straight Face' school of fighting games... 'Cause "It's all about teh 'mind games'... yadda yadda, goo-goo, ga-ga, poo-poo". NOTWITHSTANDING, I need to make it clear that this suggestion is not about raising the "entry level" of the game, nor about filtering newbies. Rather, it is purely an easily-implementable means by which to stop the FB's in Mortal Kombat 11, becoming the "Clashes" of Injustice 2: The nuaseating, obligatory mechanic of the latter game -- design decisions that end up goading people to drop a given product, more than they serve to attract people to pick it up.

Disclaimer:

[In theory] I like the overall approach NRS seems to be taking with MK11 -- Flawless Blocking / Countering; hopping; the "Krushing Blows" system... even auto-regen meters (something I had never imagined could be a 'boon' for a fighting game, given how MMO-esque the mechanic seems) -- and even the FB system, as a kind of "rage" or "desperation" ability, could actually work. It's just that, from what has been shown and what has been elaborated upon (e.g., the "Fatal Blow" is available again "3 or 4 seconds" after a failed attempt), unless there is some kind of restriction placed upon the "super" moves in question, human nature dictates that theses abilities will, in one form or another, be abused--and to the ultimate detriment of the overall product.
 

Saint Op Omen

Savagely beating his super-ego with his id...
well you seem to have argued that out already...I think maybe you could have possibly won... SF & others kinda do that... not really that much a difference to change much either way I think...squirrels can press buttons...squirrels are neat.
 

Jynks

some heroes are born, some made, some wondrous
I like that it is easy to do. The idea of complex inputs vs simple ones is a huge topic. I prefer the barrier to my reactions and thinking to be small as possible. Inputs should be there to allow actions, not make actions hard to do, imo.

So the FB input seem fine to me.

I also think that I would much prefer a standard meter burn, rather then unique transient inputs for all the moves with Crushing Blow. Just seems like a ton of stuff to memories and get into muscle memory.. when the result is the same. A simple meter burn single button thing like they always have done would be perfect imo.

If there needs to be a change to FB, I think it could be the fact that it might be a good idea for it to require meter, maybe 1 bar of each attack and defence or require all the bars or 2 attack 1 defence or w/e. There is a lot of discussion about FB being so at the front of the meta.. being so easy and cheap to pull off there is no reason not to pop it every match. Also, the stamina meter bars themselves, there is a lot of talk about the "cooldown" nature of it recharging.... I think adding more use for the meter and also make it so FB is one of those uses would adjust both those arguments a little.
 
Meh. We've been making inputs easier for awhile now and it hasn't caused issues. Soul Calibur is the best it's ever been and they've got one button supers. There's no denying you can add a little more depth by making some moves charge motions or 360's or something, but at the end of the day in a pro's hands most moves boil down to-

Required setup (charge move for example, 0 way to cheat it)

Buffered (360's or any other complicated motion that you just hide during something else. If you want stupid crazy reference look at anything KOF or a good ivy player).

Almost everything else.

Yeah some moves require you to do annoying shit like continuously pumping your stick in a motion so you can be ready to drop it at a moments notice, but that's not exactly an interesting skill to test.

Personally I don't enjoy winning just because my opponent can't play the game. It means i have fewer chances to learn and more chances to build a bad habit. Sure too easy exists, but given a lot of these moves might just wind up as combo damage fodder anyways, who cares how hard they are to do?
 
Lol you've been talking on this point since MK9!

I don't think you will get your wish Sablicious.

EVER!


Tell you what though you should start your petition now for Fatality commands for Supers in MK12.


Gotta get in there early!

Look on the bright side you finally get to swing your hammer with Shao Kahn.

Enjoy it come April!

You never fail to entertain with your essays on command inputs everytime a new MK is on its way.

Looking forward to reading it again for MK12.
 

Kroaken

Life is a block string with no gaps.
I like that it is easy to do. The idea of complex inputs vs simple ones is a huge topic. I prefer the barrier to my reactions and thinking to be small as possible. Inputs should be there to allow actions, not make actions hard to do, imo.

So the FB input seem fine to me.

I also think that I would much prefer a standard meter burn, rather then unique transient inputs for all the moves with Crushing Blow. Just seems like a ton of stuff to memories and get into muscle memory.. when the result is the same. A simple meter burn single button thing like they always have done would be perfect imo.

If there needs to be a change to FB, I think it could be the fact that it might be a good idea for it to require meter, maybe 1 bar of each attack and defence or require all the bars or 2 attack 1 defence or w/e. There is a lot of discussion about FB being so at the front of the meta.. being so easy and cheap to pull off there is no reason not to pop it every match. Also, the stamina meter bars themselves, there is a lot of talk about the "cooldown" nature of it recharging.... I think adding more use for the meter and also make it so FB is one of those uses would adjust both those arguments a little.
You might have liked Rising Thunder.
 

DDustiNN

MK11 Pocket Guide: Koming Soon to the App Store
I like that it is easy to do. The idea of complex inputs vs simple ones is a huge topic. I prefer the barrier to my reactions and thinking to be small as possible. Inputs should be there to allow actions, not make actions hard to do, imo.

So the FB input seem fine to me.

I also think that I would much prefer a standard meter burn, rather then unique transient inputs for all the moves with Crushing Blow. Just seems like a ton of stuff to memories and get into muscle memory.. when the result is the same. A simple meter burn single button thing like they always have done would be perfect imo.

If there needs to be a change to FB, I think it could be the fact that it might be a good idea for it to require meter, maybe 1 bar of each attack and defence or require all the bars or 2 attack 1 defence or w/e. There is a lot of discussion about FB being so at the front of the meta.. being so easy and cheap to pull off there is no reason not to pop it every match. Also, the stamina meter bars themselves, there is a lot of talk about the "cooldown" nature of it recharging.... I think adding more use for the meter and also make it so FB is one of those uses would adjust both those arguments a little.
I agree, and that’s exactly why I never play command grab characters. The dbf input is just too awkward and I can’t pull it off with 100% consistency.

Another input I hate is the close/medium/far versions of moves. It’s like.... why? Why not just make them track, like Aquaman’s?

Those are the two character types I avoid in NRS games. In Street Fighter, it’s full-circle stuff like Zangief, and charge moves like M. Bison (which suuuucked, because I loved Necalli).
 
there is no skill difference between mashing the shoulder buttons or mashing fireball motions. in low level play learn to block the super which you know will be coming out the second they get it. there will deff be a mind game with it in high level play, and I want to see someone bait it out and parry it into their own super.
 

STB Sgt Reed

Online Warrior
I like that it is easy to do. The idea of complex inputs vs simple ones is a huge topic. I prefer the barrier to my reactions and thinking to be small as possible. Inputs should be there to allow actions, not make actions hard to do, imo.

So the FB input seem fine to me.

I also think that I would much prefer a standard meter burn, rather then unique transient inputs for all the moves with Crushing Blow. Just seems like a ton of stuff to memories and get into muscle memory.. when the result is the same. A simple meter burn single button thing like they always have done would be perfect imo.

If there needs to be a change to FB, I think it could be the fact that it might be a good idea for it to require meter, maybe 1 bar of each attack and defence or require all the bars or 2 attack 1 defence or w/e. There is a lot of discussion about FB being so at the front of the meta.. being so easy and cheap to pull off there is no reason not to pop it every match. Also, the stamina meter bars themselves, there is a lot of talk about the "cooldown" nature of it recharging.... I think adding more use for the meter and also make it so FB is one of those uses would adjust both those arguments a little.
I absolutely agree with this! Making complicated commands for things just makes you think less about the situation at hand and more about oh god, I hope I don't drop this. And you start staying away from certain useful strings or combos because you can't do them consistently.


I agree, and that’s exactly why I never play command grab characters. The dbf input is just too awkward and I can’t pull it off with 100% consistency.

Another input I hate is the close/medium/far versions of moves. It’s like.... why? Why not just make them track, like Aquaman’s?

Those are the two character types I avoid in NRS games. In Street Fighter, it’s full-circle stuff like Zangief, and charge moves like M. Bison (which suuuucked, because I loved Necalli).
LMAO, me too man... me too. That character looks amazing! Wait, command grabs? nah bruh, I'm out.

On your other point though, I don't like the close, med, far inputs either, but they shouldn't just make them track because that changes the strategy of the character. I would say just make a different input for each one.

db1, db2, db3 or something.
 

Marlow

Premium Supporter
Premium Supporter
Another input I hate is the close/medium/far versions of moves. It’s like.... why? Why not just make them track, like Aquaman’s?
I assume it's partly a balance thing. From The Reveal, Raiden's lighting bolt move looked really strong, with a pretty big hitbox. If that thing tracked it would be a pretty insane move for the opponent to always deal with. Having it be c/m/f lets NRS keep the move strong, but force the Raiden player to know what ranges to use it, and gives the opponent a chance to try and find the "blind spot". Adds to the footsies.
 

BecomingDeath13

"You won't winter over?" Who the fuck wrote that?
I understand that people want them to be more difficult to execute, but Tekken and SC have 1 button supers now. It wouldn't bother me if we were given a new command. I don't see it happening though.
I mean blazblue's Ragna has a distortion drive that's 6321456D. Mk doesn't really use diagonals though.

I honestly think it's fine how it is. If you're talking low level play, they're unsafe. Armor aside if you're blocking. You can punish a mashed FB easily. Do it enough and maybe they'll learn not to just throw it out there. Maybe they'll actually hit confirm into it instead to guarantee it hits. It's a once per match thing.

Mind games. If you are in your opponent's head you know they're gonna mash it out. React accordingly. I really don't think it's a big deal.
 

Lokheit

Noob
As a game developer I only want to say that attaching harder inputs to stuff for the sake of it when you can have the same results with simpler inputs is BLASPHEMY against everything that game design should aim at. Basically in a perfect world, you wouldn't even need hardware to transfer your thoughts to game instructions, hardware is there because it's the only way to make you connect with the game and should always be non-intrusive.

Difficulty should be on having good timing, good reactions, making reads, understanding the pace of the game, etc... Adding additional inputs just to make you press more unnecessary buttons is a HUGE design mistake (btw, I think the way moves are enhanced now are a mistake too because there was already a better system that worked, they're not even hard on their current state, but makes it harder for players to jump from one character to another).
 

Marlow

Premium Supporter
Premium Supporter
I'll never understand why people come on here and write novels based on their goofy opinions. :DOGE
"It was the best of times, it was the worst of times, it was the age of wisdom, it was the age of foolishness, it was the epoch of belief, it was the epoch of incredulity, it was the season of Light, it was the season of Darkness, it was the spring of hope, it was the winter of despair, we had everything before us, we had nothing before us, we were all going direct to heaven, we were all going direct the other way - in short, the period was so far like the present period, that some of its noisiest authorities insisted on its being received, for good or for evil, in the superlative degree of comparison only. D1 should never be special cancellable."
 

Marinjuana

Up rock incoming, ETA 5 minutes
As a game developer I only want to say that attaching harder inputs to stuff for the sake of it when you can have the same results with simpler inputs is BLASPHEMY against everything that game design should aim at. Basically in a perfect world, you wouldn't even need hardware to transfer your thoughts to game instructions, hardware is there because it's the only way to make you connect with the game and should always be non-intrusive.

Difficulty should be on having good timing, good reactions, making reads, understanding the pace of the game, etc... Adding additional inputs just to make you press more unnecessary buttons is a HUGE design mistake (btw, I think the way moves are enhanced now are a mistake too because there was already a better system that worked, they're not even hard on their current state, but makes it harder for players to jump from one character to another).
In this particular case I think it's nonsense because it's just artificially creating more memorization with minor execution differences but in designing games there's something to be said about input/execution difficulty. In SF2, Zangief having to do a 270 degree stick turn to do his pile driver affected his ability to to do the move in certain situations It gave the move a "tell" so to speak, maybe not a casual friendly input but it affected the gameplay. In Super Metroid, there's a challenging(at least to a new player) and incredibly useful mechanic in wall jumping that isn't required and if you didn't go a certain area in the game you might not know it exists. These moves/mechanics having an execution barrier reward players for skill and/or limit their ability to abuse them.

I think you kind of are alluding to that by saying "same results with simpler inputs" but I just want to make it clear that input complexity/execution difficulty can be used effectively in game design.
 

villainous monk

Terrible times breed terrible things, my lord.
So much talking and double speak. Too much.

Besides x-rays we're mapped to blk+stance change and no one has ever said peep before you.

Wow. Look at you.
 

DDustiNN

MK11 Pocket Guide: Koming Soon to the App Store
I absolutely agree with this! Making complicated commands for things just makes you think less about the situation at hand and more about oh god, I hope I don't drop this. And you start staying away from certain useful strings or combos because you can't do them consistently.




LMAO, me too man... me too. That character looks amazing! Wait, command grabs? nah bruh, I'm out.

On your other point though, I don't like the close, med, far inputs either, but they shouldn't just make them track because that changes the strategy of the character. I would say just make a different input for each one.

db1, db2, db3 or something.
That’s actually how Freddy, Cyrax, and Shang Tsung worked in MK9. I like those a little better than holding back and forward after the inputs.
 

Rip Torn

ALL I HAVE IS THE GREEN.
What a strange thing to be so concerned about. It really wouldn't change anything to make the input DF2 as opposed to a button press. There's like a 7 second cool down on a missed Fatal Blow, so it's not like you can just keep spamming it until it hits.

They aren't going to change the input because it's a non-issue.
 
I prefer super commands like from Street Fighter but for different reasons. For new players learning how to do these for the first time, it can be a very satisfying and self rewarding experience to pull them off in a casual setting. And once they've learned it, they can show off their skill to their noobier friends and be like "hey check out what I can do". As of now if I'm showing someone a game for the first time and I just tell them "press these two buttons at the same time", the super will come out right away. This doesn't feel rewarding because the player doesn't have the build up of finding out how to do the move and failing through trial, so there's no pay off.