A Critical Look at Injustice: Post EVO Review

[ceemurda]

I see people are still crying.... Im just glad the john stewart skin is in the game and now I can play a good black character in a nrs game for once lol

Sent from my SCH-R920 using Tapatalk 2

 

[serge]

Glorious thread!
I'm expecting many more like these to come unfortunatly.

 

[TarkatanDentist]

The key problem with Injustice is that they tried to make each character too different.

Now, obviously character heterogeneity in a fighting game is a good thing (it'd be pretty boring without it) But, much like oxygen, it's entirely possible to get too much of it.

Other fighting games are usually able to strike a decent compromise between character heterogeneity and balance. The Street Fighter series, for instance, opts for having three 'styles' of play that pretty much every character falls into: zoning, rushdown, or mix-and-match. Each type has key strengths and weaknesses to them, and the characters within each type are varied enough to not have gameplay be too 'samey'. The Tekken series takes a different approach in that pretty much every character has the same core game plan - no matter who you pick, close-quarters combat is the default, defense is the default, evasion and punishment are both crucial, and ultimately the goal is to poke and create openings, then launch and juggle when you are successful in creating one. Each character ultimately has variations in how good they are at doing these various things, but the basic plan is almost identical.

Through these means, both games manage to create a solid level of balance.

Injustice, however, tries so hard to make each character different that it's borderline impossible to balance it properly. Ideally, no match-up in any fighting game should be worse than 4-6. But given how each character has an extremely different way of fighting, this becomes incredibly difficult to do. Hawkgirl, Harley Quinn, The Joker, Batgirl, Doomsday, Killer Frost - all of these characters and more play totally differently from each other. Hawkgirl, in particular, does even with or even has an advantage over many high tier characters, but will never be balanced as things stand because she has a handful of matchups that completely ruin her day (the most well-known example being Sinestro). For HG vs Sinestro to be close to 4-6, one or both characters would have to be radically altered - and if that happened, what effects might this have on other match-ups? You see what I'm getting at here?

So ultimately, while I certainly give them credit for trying, and I still find the game fun to play, their attempts to make each character as distinguished as they are was, at best, misguided and has backfired considerably. Thus it will simply not be able to have a competitive scene as good as the likes of Tekken or Street Fighter...

 

[Briyen]

This post has been brewing for a long time. I didnt want to post this, b/c I hoped EVO would prove me wrong.
The reason for this is not my personal problems, rather, I want to bring this to NRS attention and possible KI devs attention, as when it comes to fighting games, they seem to fail miserably compared to Japanese Fgs. I admire NRS and Ed Boon for they appeal to tournament scene and as a fan and as a pro player, I want to give my review on Injustice flaws.

1. Zoning
   http://testyourmight.com/threads/injustice-zoning.30958/#post-791947
   http://testyourmight.com/threads/injustice-zoning.30958/page-11#post-1014838
   So that I dont repeat myself.
   The problem, I fear, lies in awkward balancing ideas. I cant help but once again look at the classics – SF has melee or zoning characters, but once melee gets through “fireball forest” his tools are far superior to that of a zoner.
   Injustice zoners have very powerful melee tools, combined with multiple options to shake off pressure makes them overall a better choice. With no true options to counter projectile spam, game pace become slow and boring.
   That is even further enchanced by one of the slowest walk speed Fgs have seen.
   
2. Jumps
   A lot of characters in the game were given multiple ways to change jump arcs – divekicks, air projectiles, air dashes etc. However , lack of reliable AA's (or specifically, ridiculous hitbox on jump atacks) makes this options obsolette.
   Apparently this has been made to avoid inability of jump atacks to crossup, which occurred in early builds. But finalized version seems raw and counter-intuitive.
   
3. Frame data (moves balance)
   Why superman f23 is fast, long range, cancellable juggle starter, while b23 slow, no range and deals 8%?
   Why bane f2 is -23 mid, while f2d (same move basically) is neurtal on block overhead?
   Why movelist is filled with trash moves, which only purpose is excuse for a cool name (like “dark knight rising” or “final hour”) next to it?
   Eventually we end up with “two days of f23” as someone described EVO 2013. It could easily have been “two days of b13” (Green Lantern) or “two days of b23” (Black Adam). Character moves are not balanced, not only between roster, but even between that same character movelist.
   Each move needs to fit a role. Safe, damaging, fast – pick two. The rule as old as fgs go.
   
4. Buffening
   Game timings are way too strict. It goes back to MK9 and I dont see a reason for it to stay this way. Lack of buffer windows for normals make online play excruciating.
   
5. Ranked play
   Ranked play is the best part of online Fgs and its a total failure.
   If I am a begginner from Asia and get paired with KDZ from USA, not only Im going to suffer a horrible death, but its also going to be slow. In all senses.
   No way to skip opponent, no way to see how good your connection is, no way to separate beginner from expert. Those problems are LONG SOLVED in other online games. How come Injustice falls so far behind?
   
6. Patching
   Generally, patching is a good thing. As someone coming from Japanese Fgs I know how developer inability to adress ridiculous bugs laid waste to entire communities. However, I cannot comprehend logic behind patches.
   KF slide is broken. KF resets are broken. Even if it would deal 10% dmg it would still be. Does it get patched? NO. Everyting else does.
   Same for Scorpion TP. Or Superman f23. Or Batman bats.
   The broken stuff IS obvious. But everything gets patched. Everything, but the broken stuff. Its as if NRS is forcing us to abuse this shit even harder.
   The recent patch left me confused. As “universal” D2 improvement actually buffed Black Adam, Superman and GL, as you no longer can jump at them for free with most characters.
   
   To conclude.
   Injustice is a disappointment and a lot of players will drop it after EVO. As a fan of MK9, I, among others, had high hopes for Injustice and saw it as a game, that would unite different Fgs communities. Franlky, I feel even MK9 was a better FG than Injustice (except for p1 advantage). Do you feel the same way? Do you agree with my points?
   If yes, maybe, together, we can reach NRS ears and their next title finally reaches the goal.

we need to walk faster foreal

 

[M2Dave]

A "quality" post masquerading as another thread whining about zoning.

You scrubs will not stop until Deathstroke is Roll tier.

 

[Hellion_96]

Hmm this is weird. I could have sworn I typed in testyourmight.com it must have auto-corrected me to Gamefaq

 

[TarkatanDentist]

Hmm this is weird. I could have sworn I typed in testyourmight.com it must have auto-corrected me to Gamefaq

Would that be a good or a bad thing?

 

[Treadmill]

A "quality" post masquerading as another thread whining about zoning.

You scrubs will not stop until Deathstroke is Roll tier.

lol....scrubs...you are a tool.

 

[Hellion_96]

Would that be a good or a bad thing?

a bad thing a very bad thing but with that being said I think Flash needs a couple buffs he can't get in and has no mixups

 

[187x]

This post has been brewing for a long time. I didnt want to post this, b/c I hoped EVO would prove me wrong.
The reason for this is not my personal problems, rather, I want to bring this to NRS attention and possible KI devs attention, as when it comes to fighting games, they seem to fail miserably compared to Japanese Fgs. I admire NRS and Ed Boon for they appeal to tournament scene and as a fan and as a pro player, I want to give my review on Injustice flaws.

1. Zoning
   http://testyourmight.com/threads/injustice-zoning.30958/#post-791947
   http://testyourmight.com/threads/injustice-zoning.30958/page-11#post-1014838
   So that I dont repeat myself.
   The problem, I fear, lies in awkward balancing ideas. I cant help but once again look at the classics – SF has melee or zoning characters, but once melee gets through “fireball forest” his tools are far superior to that of a zoner.
   Injustice zoners have very powerful melee tools, combined with multiple options to shake off pressure makes them overall a better choice. With no true options to counter projectile spam, game pace become slow and boring.
   That is even further enchanced by one of the slowest walk speed Fgs have seen.
   
2. Jumps
   A lot of characters in the game were given multiple ways to change jump arcs – divekicks, air projectiles, air dashes etc. However , lack of reliable AA's (or specifically, ridiculous hitbox on jump atacks) makes this options obsolette.
   Apparently this has been made to avoid inability of jump atacks to crossup, which occurred in early builds. But finalized version seems raw and counter-intuitive.
   
3. Frame data (moves balance)
   Why superman f23 is fast, long range, cancellable juggle starter, while b23 slow, no range and deals 8%?
   Why bane f2 is -23 mid, while f2d (same move basically) is neurtal on block overhead?
   Why movelist is filled with trash moves, which only purpose is excuse for a cool name (like “dark knight rising” or “final hour”) next to it?
   Eventually we end up with “two days of f23” as someone described EVO 2013. It could easily have been “two days of b13” (Green Lantern) or “two days of b23” (Black Adam). Character moves are not balanced, not only between roster, but even between that same character movelist.
   Each move needs to fit a role. Safe, damaging, fast – pick two. The rule as old as fgs go.
   
4. Buffening
   Game timings are way too strict. It goes back to MK9 and I dont see a reason for it to stay this way. Lack of buffer windows for normals make online play excruciating.
   
5. Ranked play
   Ranked play is the best part of online Fgs and its a total failure.
   If I am a begginner from Asia and get paired with KDZ from USA, not only Im going to suffer a horrible death, but its also going to be slow. In all senses.
   No way to skip opponent, no way to see how good your connection is, no way to separate beginner from expert. Those problems are LONG SOLVED in other online games. How come Injustice falls so far behind?
   
6. Patching
   Generally, patching is a good thing. As someone coming from Japanese Fgs I know how developer inability to adress ridiculous bugs laid waste to entire communities. However, I cannot comprehend logic behind patches.
   KF slide is broken. KF resets are broken. Even if it would deal 10% dmg it would still be. Does it get patched? NO. Everyting else does.
   Same for Scorpion TP. Or Superman f23. Or Batman bats.
   The broken stuff IS obvious. But everything gets patched. Everything, but the broken stuff. Its as if NRS is forcing us to abuse this shit even harder.
   The recent patch left me confused. As “universal” D2 improvement actually buffed Black Adam, Superman and GL, as you no longer can jump at them for free with most characters.
   
   To conclude.
   Injustice is a disappointment and a lot of players will drop it after EVO. As a fan of MK9, I, among others, had high hopes for Injustice and saw it as a game, that would unite different Fgs communities. Franlky, I feel even MK9 was a better FG than Injustice (except for p1 advantage). Do you feel the same way? Do you agree with my points?
   If yes, maybe, together, we can reach NRS ears and their next title finally reaches the goal.

AGREE. I ready said why this game sucks 100x but you wrote a good article about it

 

[Foreskin Fissure]

Oh man...this guy. Ok, I'll start things off:

1. Zoning (as interpreted as ranged projectile spammage):

- NRS nerfed Deathstroke.
- Some characters have air dashes, teleports, armor moves, and projecticle deflectors/evaders to overcome zoning.
- NRS nerfed Deathstroke.
- Movement spacing to offset projectiles is a skill and just because people suck at it now it doesn't mean they won't get better. (Look at DJT's Cyrax vs REO's Kabal match in the MK9 GF).
- NRS nerfed Deathstroke.

My gripe with zoning is that the truly superior characters in this game (i.e. Bats, KF, GL, SUPES, BA, hell even Bat girl and Aquaman) Have tools to not just to zone you but but perfectly 100% safe footsie tools for when you get in range. Sinestro is an incredible zoner with a disadvantage in footsies, that's how it should be. If I'm playing flash and get away from all those falling rocks, binds, and fear blasts i should be in a position where i have to make him play defensively, and thats exactly what happens. On the other hand we have supes where if you get in on his incredibly annoying array of heat vision zones you get f23 breathed into backdash for another f23 or another free back dash for zoning oppurtunities again. If supes is gonna have F23 breath why does he get a fullscreen overhead zone thats safe on block? Why is it that we have to wait out and guess which zone he's gonna use next if when we finally get to that "footsies range" we're already dominated by f23? And even with all this he has an absolutely obnoxious trait that counters characters that are supossed to help you with counter zoning (ex: doomsday trait completely nullified by superman trait) and is used to land 70% combos, and has a ONE frame super with ARMOR to eat through your zone and punish you FULLSCREEN for doing what your character does. I know I spent a whole paragraph picking on superman but i could do the same for any of the top tier characters with the exception of maybe WW who seems to be by far the most fair "S tier" to date.

So yes, there are ways to counter zoning, but those are zoning specific, the problem lies in the characters who zone you and then punish you for finally getting in on them when your character should have the advantage at that point.

edit: I personally believe zoning has no place in a figthing game when all you have to do is mindlessly shoot projectiles at fullscreen. I understand the use of projectiles but no character IMO should be able to do it safely all game, it's just flat out boring. My Point to sum up again is if a character is in a game where he is allowed to do this it should be unsafe in melee range because the character lacks the tools to compete with a character who can't zone and is pure rush down.

 

[Under_The_Mayo]

Although I agree with pretty much everything in your post, this part is the big issue here.



This was a huge problem in MK9 too. If a character has a fast advancing (low or mid or overhead) safe combo starter, why the fuck does that character have any other strings? I'm actually curious how many characters in this game have more than 2 strings that are useful in neutral situations.

Catwoman is one of the most enjoyable characters to play for this reason. She has has mixup strings of B12D3 and F112. She has 1F2 which is a 6 frame jab into an overhead that`s +3 on block setting up d1 launchers. 2D2 is a low mixup from a mid that leaves her +2. B23 overhead goes over pokes and leaves her +3.

 

[Eddy Wang]

I find the buffering strange too, but execution in this game is by far the easiest and most forgiving of any game I've played. The difference is the window does not allow a lot of stuff to be hit confirmed. It's really not a bad thing, much like SF, the game requires more yomi than confirms. You have to make your inputs based on what you think the opponent will do and you're committed.

Even on SF if you do random shit you will be punished.

Nice post belial, i have to agree i feel the same way. I Had my hopes for Injustice, but i see more and more peoples dropping the game from time to time, some players getting disappointed...

 

[Jimmypotato]

If you don't like the game, then don't play. Nobody was holding a gun to the head of the 500+ players at Evo.

If top players drop the game, who cares, new top players will come around.

I SAY THIS TO ALL, IT IS SIMPLE, IF YOU DON'T LIKE THE GAME STOP PLAYING IT, AND BE SILENT ABOUT IT.

 

[mistermoo]

If you don't like the game, then don't play. Nobody was holding a gun to the head of the 500+ players at Evo.

If top players drop the game, who cares, new top players will come around.

I SAY THIS TO ALL, IT IS SIMPLE, IF YOU DON'T LIKE THE GAME STOP PLAYING IT, AND BE SILENT ABOUT IT.

NRS is not a company of mind-readers. If they don't know the problems people have with IGAU they can't easily fix them in new fighting games they make.

The people on this site are so god damn toxic to the very idea that the game they place is not perfect or that it is in some way imbalanced/improvable, it's absolutely insufferable.

 

[Crazykitana]

this game is fine and a great improvement from mk9 .
if you didnt see the vast amount of entrants, that mk9 never came close to in its 3 years at evo,then i dont know.
why cant people accept this game for what it is instead of wanting it to be something else.
this is the first NRS game to receive such international attention and entrants.
i can only see this game getting stronger yes we wont have the same top mk9 players top in injustice but is that a bad thing.

 

[Darth Mao]

snip

Great post, agree with all. Especially the Patching and Frame Data topics, these things are exactly what I say here. If these two items had special attention from NRS, IGAU would improved incredibly.

 

[SilverKeyMan]

Frame data (moves balance)

Character moves are not balanced, not only between roster, but even between that same character movelist.
Each move needs to fit a role. Safe, damaging, fast – pick two. The rule as old as fgs go.

This is my biggest problem with NRS titles. After a few months (weeks?), every character is optimized. There is no reason to modify your combo to use a slower, less damaging, and unsafe starter.

 

[godlessmode]

This is my biggest problem with NRS titles. After a few months (weeks?), every character is optimized. There is no reason to modify your combo to use a slower, less damaging, and unsafe starter.

That'll happen in every fighting game. By the very definition provided in this case you would have only 3 moves per character, a fast move, a safe move and a damaging move. Not a great design. If you wanted to argue that the same metrics should be applied to the types (low, overhead, high, mid) of moves then you only have 9-12 moves per character. And even assuming all of this, you would still end up where the Risk to Reward ratio favors using just some small subset of them.

 

[Zoidberg747]

If you don't like the game, then don't play. Nobody was holding a gun to the head of the 500+ players at Evo.

If top players drop the game, who cares, new top players will come around.

I SAY THIS TO ALL, IT IS SIMPLE, IF YOU DON'T LIKE THE GAME STOP PLAYING IT, AND BE SILENT ABOUT IT.

I see you have come around. Props good sir

 

[kronspik]

If you don't like the game, then don't play. Nobody was holding a gun to the head of the 500+ players at Evo.

If top players drop the game, who cares, new top players will come around.

I SAY THIS TO ALL, IT IS SIMPLE, IF YOU DON'T LIKE THE GAME STOP PLAYING IT, AND BE SILENT ABOUT IT.

This is a horrible thought process. I want NRS to improve the quality of their games. If you don't speak out against problems in a game, they will never be fixed. Even if these issues aren't fixed until a new game comes out, it's better than them never being fixed at all. If it wasn't for people complaining, then Injustice would still have no trades, input bugs, block infinites, and so on.

In short, stop being a sheep.

 

[The Borax Kid]

People will often get hostile about justified nerfs because as the TC says, NRS will just nerf a bunch of unnecessary stuff around the problem most of the time rather than deal with it head on like they should.

Walk speeds is the big thing most people want fixed, for a faster paced game with a better overall balance.

Just being able to get in faster, not even being guaranteed any damage from it mind you, would buff a whole host of characters while still keeping the good characters good.

 

[Qwark28]

This thread just exposes you and is filled with bullshit and whiners who are not willing to learn the game 2 months in.

Zoning? Really? Flash. Raven. Doomsday. Bane. Grundy. Batman. KF. Scorpion. Batgirl. Harley So many people can get past zoning. I do it with Joker who is bottom 2.

Sorry this isn't SF4, maybe you have to get used to the NRS "block projectile, dash" logic.

Lack of antiairs? Have you downloaded the last patch? 90% of chars now have anti airs, also, god forbid you have to react to air dashes or read air projectiles. Wait, Akuma, Gen, Yun, Seth, Juri, Adon from street fighter have air projectiles, divekicks, wallbounces, should they be nerfed too? is sf4 a bad game based on these?

Are combos hard? Really? With Injustice being the second easiest game to do combos in, you complain about combos being hard to do ONLINE? And the netcode? How do you speak and with what credibility about game balances when one of the most important things for you in this game are ranked matches and difficult combos online?

About strings, if you take away those dedicated strings from superman, black adam or KFs slide or NERFED VORTEX which only does about 30% now then you ruin the characters. What is KF gonna do without a safe slide? What is superman without f23? Only BA can remotely exist without his B23 purely because of B1 and that's pushing it. Filler strings also make for useful tech, even if they're worthless to you, who are you to say which strings are useless when the game is so new?

Honestly, this thread looks like it came from someone who wants to complain 2 months in a game instead of letting it play out, I NEVER would have guessed this came from a SC5 EVO top 8 player and is just embarrasing, I can see why your felow people who can't deal with this game would agree when they're salty, scrubby and only wish to take out their frustrations on any anti-superman post even if superman is 1/6th of your posts' focus.

OP, you have no idea how a majority of the game's characters work or how the game's mechanics work. Please try to get over the "zoning and online are OP!!!" stage that the rest of the world did 1 month ago.

I still haven't see people grinding out matchups for hours with capable players, even from americans except very few top players.

 

[ceemurda]

This is a horrible thought process. I want NRS to improve the quality of their games. If you don't speak out against problems in a game, they will never be fixed. Even if these issues aren't fixed until a new game comes out, it's better than them never being fixed at all. If it wasn't for people complaining, then Injustice would still have no trades, input bugs, block infinites, and so on.

In short, stop being a sheep.

true but now its about a matter of opinion.. I really dont think NRS has much else to do to this game but let it breathe........ and Im a cyborg player saying that

 

[Belial]

skip

I take it you have the idea.
I dont want this to come off as a troll answer, but arent you Black Adam main?
Maybe I got a little carried away, but my main point about zoning is not that you cant get around it, but that it is poorly implemented, makes game look monotonous and , fact, characters have many defencive options at close range, but close to none at mid to full screen range.

Anti Airs are still bad in this game. Try to count how many times Chris G J3 got AA'd. Or Batmans J2. You have way too little time to react to jump as hitbox of jump atacks is too big. DP style moves would help, but sadly, armored f/b+3 do not work as AA reliably. For example if KF f+3 MB against Batman J2 into 1 or even b1 will get interrupted, unless you input f+3 very early. See above.

You seem to justify poor move design by the fact, that if you remove it, there would be nothing left. My point - devs have to put more options in there for players to discover and utilize.
Move A has reach to hit backdash and is safe, move B has little range but great blockstun.
Char A can punish huge unsafes for 50%, but cannot punish smaller ones, while Char B can i8 punish all unsafes but for 15%.
Some tools are great in matchup A, but bad in matchup B.
It builds one small thing after another and thats what makes amazing game, matchup diversity and something you can explore even when games out for years.

Injustice is poorly designed and is boring. Full screen fireball wars with slow momentum shifts and then spam of 1 same move over and over again at close range. If you need proof - re-watch EVO stream. Do you believe game is going to evolve past this? As you said, take f23 away, and Superman's dead.

Since you bring this up, instead of throwing around insults, maybe you should consider it IS coming from a top competitor. Ask SC community about me, or even KDZ himself. I am not the sort that needs "step up your game/learn 2 play" advice.