A Critical Look at Injustice: Post EVO Review

[Belial]

This post has been brewing for a long time. I didnt want to post this, b/c I hoped EVO would prove me wrong.
The reason for this is not my personal problems, rather, I want to bring this to NRS attention and possible KI devs attention, as when it comes to fighting games, they seem to fail miserably compared to Japanese Fgs. I admire NRS and Ed Boon for they appeal to tournament scene and as a fan and as a pro player, I want to give my review on Injustice flaws.

1. Zoning
   http://testyourmight.com/threads/injustice-zoning.30958/#post-791947
   http://testyourmight.com/threads/injustice-zoning.30958/page-11#post-1014838
   So that I dont repeat myself.
   The problem, I fear, lies in awkward balancing ideas. I cant help but once again look at the classics – SF has melee or zoning characters, but once melee gets through “fireball forest” his tools are far superior to that of a zoner.
   Injustice zoners have very powerful melee tools, combined with multiple options to shake off pressure makes them overall a better choice. With no true options to counter projectile spam, game pace become slow and boring.
   That is even further enchanced by one of the slowest walk speed Fgs have seen.
   
   
2. Jumps
   A lot of characters in the game were given multiple ways to change jump arcs – divekicks, air projectiles, air dashes etc. However , lack of reliable AA's (or specifically, ridiculous hitbox on jump atacks) makes this options obsolette.
   Apparently this has been made to avoid inability of jump atacks to crossup, which occurred in early builds. But finalized version seems raw and counter-intuitive.
   
   
3. Frame data (moves balance)
   Why superman f23 is fast, long range, cancellable juggle starter, while b23 slow, no range and deals 8%?
   Why bane f2 is -23 mid, while f2d (same move basically) is neurtal on block overhead?
   Why movelist is filled with trash moves, which only purpose is excuse for a cool name (like “dark knight rising” or “final hour”) next to it?
   Eventually we end up with “two days of f23” as someone described EVO 2013. It could easily have been “two days of b13” (Green Lantern) or “two days of b23” (Black Adam). Character moves are not balanced, not only between roster, but even between that same character movelist.
   Each move needs to fit a role. Safe, damaging, fast – pick two. The rule as old as fgs go.
   
   
4. Buffening
   Game timings are way too strict. It goes back to MK9 and I dont see a reason for it to stay this way. Lack of buffer windows for normals make online play excruciating.
   
   
5. Ranked play
   Ranked play is the best part of online Fgs and its a total failure.
   If I am a begginner from Asia and get paired with KDZ from USA, not only Im going to suffer a horrible death, but its also going to be slow. In all senses.
   No way to skip opponent, no way to see how good your connection is, no way to separate beginner from expert. Those problems are LONG SOLVED in other online games. How come Injustice falls so far behind?
   
   
6. Patching
   Generally, patching is a good thing. As someone coming from Japanese Fgs I know how developer inability to adress ridiculous bugs laid waste to entire communities. However, I cannot comprehend logic behind patches.
   KF slide is broken. KF resets are broken. Even if it would deal 10% dmg it would still be. Does it get patched? NO. Everyting else does.
   Same for Scorpion TP. Or Superman f23. Or Batman bats.
   The broken stuff IS obvious. But everything gets patched. Everything, but the broken stuff. Its as if NRS is forcing us to abuse this shit even harder.
   The recent patch left me confused. As “universal” D2 improvement actually buffed Black Adam, Superman and GL, as you no longer can jump at them for free with most characters.
   
   To conclude.
   Injustice is a disappointment and a lot of players will drop it after EVO. As a fan of MK9, I, among others, had high hopes for Injustice and saw it as a game, that would unite different Fgs communities. Franlky, I feel even MK9 was a better FG than Injustice (except for p1 advantage). Do you feel the same way? Do you agree with my points?
   If yes, maybe, together, we can reach NRS ears and their next title finally reaches the goal.
   

 

[A New Angel Is Advent]

I find the buffering strange too, but execution in this game is by far the easiest and most forgiving of any game I've played. The difference is the window does not allow a lot of stuff to be hit confirmed. It's really not a bad thing, much like SF, the game requires more yomi than confirms. You have to make your inputs based on what you think the opponent will do and you're committed.

 

[Simon Wayne]

Quality post man. I loved your previous post about zoning as well. And yes I do agree that MK9 was a better fighting game than Injustice.

Injustice needs close to a complete mechanics overhaul to change my stance on that opinion as well and I just don't see that happening.

 

[Doombawkz]

If this game had SF style combo crafting by linking plus frames together, Bane would be the most stupid monster in the game. B.1 d.1 is already a true block string even without it, I don't even wanna imagine what would happen from our +17 d.1
And our already close frames strings. D.1 b.1 d.1 b.11 d.1 b.2 d.1 b.23 123 body press and etc.

 

[Jeffreys]

If this game had SF style combo crafting by linking plus frames together, Bane would be the most stupid monster in the game. B.1 d.1 is already a true block string even without it, I don't even wanna imagine what would happen from our +17 d.1
And our already close frames strings. D.1 b.1 d.1 b.11 d.1 b.2 d.1 b.23 123 body press and etc.

Does every post have to be related to bane...

 

[Doombawkz]

Does every post have to be related to bane...

He is talking about hit confirms, and bane has pretty much every normal packing +16-18. And yes, it does.

 

[shaowebb]

I wonder if the lack of AA and the many ways to air redirect your approaches was intended as their answer for the zoning Belial ?

As is its not really pulling it off. I still wish the game had been designed around a KoF roll feature to deal with this. As is it can't just be added now or the entire roster would need retooled on their stats. Likely even if it was added as a meter burn variant of dash.

 

[Name v.5.0]

The one true fact about this game is that it favors zoning. Losing life lead in this game can mean certain death against some characters. I'd love to see faster walk speeds.

 

[Hellbringer]

I wonder if the lack of AA and the many ways to air redirect your approaches was intended as their answer for the zoning Belial ?

As is its not really pulling it off. I still wish the game had been designed around a KoF roll feature to deal with this. As is it can't just be added now or the entire roster would need retooled on their stats. Likely even if it was added as a meter burn variant of dash.

Lack of AA? How long was the last time you played? 2 months ago?

 

[Asodimazze]

I agree with everything except the lack of anti airs, which now are actually present in the game.

 

[shaowebb]

Lack of AA? How long was the last time you played? 2 months ago?

I play Green Arrow and a lot of his intended AA is unreliable. Its pretty much why D2 got buffed is because AA wasn't really happnening as easily as it should have with people's specific tools who were in a similar boat to him. His D2 was really his best unless you were popping meter on dead on for the spread.

Its pretty much do your zoning and count frames after adding your zoning tool's recovery time to the startup of your AA to see if you are good to go. Not everyone has good options there.

 

[Saboteur-6]

Oh man...this guy. Ok, I'll start things off:

1. Zoning (as interpreted as ranged projectile spammage):

- NRS nerfed Deathstroke.
- Some characters have air dashes, teleports, armor moves, and projecticle deflectors/evaders to overcome zoning.
- NRS nerfed Deathstroke.
- Movement spacing to offset projectiles is a skill and just because people suck at it now it doesn't mean they won't get better. (Look at DJT's Cyrax vs REO's Kabal match in the MK9 GF).
- NRS nerfed Deathstroke.

2. Jumps

- You're implying that air-projectiles, dive kicks, and air dashes are obsolete and useless with the justification being that there are "always better options"? I mean that's just obviously not true. Air dashing to cross up, air projectile punishing interactable attempts or attempted jump ins, or using a dive kick to get in are all valid uses.

3. Frame data

- Again you're implying that there isn't any sort of cohesive design to ANY character strings by generalizing so you just want to write off the whole game?

4. Buffering

- What? Timing is too strict? Oh this is an online criticism.
- Latency and connection obviously influence this too.

5. Ranked play

- I mean...I guess?

6. Patching

- Honestly at this point, I'm done responding to this post.
- People will debate NRS patching habits and never be happy.

 

[godlessmode]

1. Zoning.
I feel like IGAU has zoning better than most other fighting games. Most contemporary fighting games lack a strong zoning role, and even in games where zoning is a threat most "zoners" get the majority of their damage from combos and or from being up close. There are some exceptions to this rule, but in general most fighting games devolve into 50-50 mixups for high damage leaving little room for zoning other than as a pace/spacing tool.

In essence most fighters treat zoning as a ranged footsies game. And to me, it seems that NRS recognized this, and gave the traditional zoners moderate close range tools in order to let them compete once their zoning has been passed. The alternative to this route is to make it so the zoner can put out about as much damage, about as quickly as a rushdown character with their zoning. Or to give the zoner a reasonable ability to keep the opponent out for a prolonged period of time.

In most games the R/R is heavily in the rushdown characters favor as typically a single right guess gets them in, and another correct guess gets them a large chunk of damage, where the zoner is required to guess correctly MANY times in order to keep the opponent out, and deal significant damage.

As I see it the only problem with zoning in IGAU is that the dedicated zoners typically have more significant holes in their zoning than some of the jack-of-all-traits characters. In other words, zoning is too strong on the non-zoners (Superman, Bladam), and too weak on the zoners (Sinestro, DS).

2. Jumps.
After the AA patch this seems moot.

3. Frame Data
Let's be honest, in every fighting game almost every character boils down to just a few key neutral moves, a few key advantage moves and a few key disadvantage moves. For as long as I have been playing fighters I have seen top 10 moves lists, etc. In SC5 for example a large number of the moves in every characters movelist are useless, they are overshadowed by other moves, are only useful for combo filler, and or are generally unused at high level play. That said, I also think some of the issue comes from people believing the frame data in the move lists, that data is wrong, and it has caused a lot of problems from a character selection and perceived character balance perspective.

4, 5, 6. I all agree with for the most part.


So, all of that aside, what is the real problem with Injustice? Mostly the community. This was the games first EVO showing and frankly it wasn't THAT bad. Superman isn't a problem, in fact, he is this game's Wesker (UMVC3) in that right now he looks unstoppable, but if I were to bet on it, and if the game never saw a change again (unlikely, in fact I expect supes to get nerfed stupidly), he would end up being just above mid-tier and may end up defining the "You must be this tall to pass" line for competitive play.

 

[Doombawkz]

Oh man...this guy. Ok, I'll start things off:

1. Zoning (as interpreted as ranged projectile spammage):

- NRS nerfed Deathstroke.
- Some characters have air dashes, teleports, armor moves, and projecticle deflectors/evaders to overcome zoning.
- NRS nerfed Deathstroke.
- Movement spacing to offset projectiles is a skill and just because people suck at it now it doesn't mean they won't get better. (Look at DJT's Cyrax vs REO's Kabal match in the MK9 GF).
- NRS nerfed Deathstroke.

2. Jumps

- You're implying that air-projectiles, dive kicks, and air dashes are obsolete and useless with the justification being that there are "always better options"? I mean that's just obviously not true. Air dashing to cross up, air projectile punishing interactable attempts or attempted jump ins, or using a dive kick to get in are all valid uses.

3. Frame data

- Again you're implying that there isn't any sort of cohesive design to ANY character strings by generalizing so you just want to write off the whole game?

4. Buffering

- What? Timing is too strict? Oh this is an online criticism.
- Latency and connection obviously influence this too.

5. Ranked play

- I mean...I guess?

6. Patching

- Honestly at this point, I'm done responding to this post.
- People will debate NRS patching habits and never be happy.

My turn!

1. Death stroke isn't the only zoner, and they only nerfed his chip and low shots.
2. Most zoners have air projectiles and anti-armor projectiles (2 hit)
3. See 1.
4. He used dash canceling, something we don't have. Reckless "spacing" will get you 7% bullets every time.
5. See 1.

BA doesn't use dive kick to get in, he uses it for free 54% 2 bar punishments. Air projectiles and iafb are used to stop everything air based, and most air dashes aren't fast enough to reliably cross up any more than a normal jump would.


He isn't wrong about the strings. Every character has clearly useless strings that only exist for the sake of cool names. Banes f.2d 3 for example. -30'on block, puts them full screen, does crap for damage.

Yeah

Yeah

Long as bane gets buffed they can patch every day IMO.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

This seems like an honest appriasal to me. I hope people keep the discussion civil, because the OP is backing up his argument with descriptions of specific features and issues.

I will also say -- a lot of people will have kneejerk reactions, but if you don't truly understand what this guy is talking about and the fighting game history it's based on, stay out of the discussion and just read and learn.

Saboteur-6 I'm looking at you

 

[Saboteur-6]

This seems like an honest appriasal to me. I hope people keep the discussion civil, because the OP is backing up his argument with descriptions of specific features and issues.

I will also say -- a lot of people will have kneejerk reactions, but if you don't truly understand what this guy is talking about and the fighting game history it's based on, stay out of the discussion and just read and learn.

Saboteur-6 I'm looking at you

First up, that's pretty dismissive of you CrimsonShadow. Obviously this doesn't seem like an "honest appraisal" to me and he asked for counterpoint feedback. Just because I disagree doesn't make it "kneejerk".

1. And to be clear, I understand completely that there's legitimate observation in having design issues with a character who excels both at ranged and at melee and how that seems counter-intuitive. However, I take exception with the way the OP minimizes aspects of the game that counter ranged projectile zoning like those tools just don't exist.

2. Generalizing that since there are obvious trash moves in any given characters movelist implies that there's a fundamental flaw with the game is inaccurate. As is ignoring that many other fighting games have this same issue.

3. He flat out dismisses the need or practical use of air projectiles, dive kicks, and air dashes with the justification that "they're obsolete because AA in this game sucks and you'd be better off doing something else."

 

[NY_Jailhouse]

Omg these threads lol.

 

[Solid]

I respect Belial a whole lot for his abilities as a player and his work on Mistsurugi on 8wayrun says it all. I agree with you on the online ranked stuff. The rest is still too early to tell. I say this using the argument that many supposed top players got exposed at EVO. I will give one example of this. Slayer blew up many great players by jumping straight up, air dashing and hitting them sometimes from the front and sometimes crossing them up. He tried it on KDZ and failed I believe all times. KDZ stopped him simply by seeing him jump straight up and scouting the airdash. As soon as Slayer committed to the airdash KDZ dashed away/forward completely nullifying that tactic and there is a lot of time to do dash away. It is something very very simple to do yet many top players simply couldn't do it. They where clearly not prepared and ready to stop such a simple tactic yet they all claimed to have Injustice all figured out. Some people on these forums have the nerf to say he won because of Superman. I will admit Superman is very good. But he blew up all the other Superman players too. He knows the character very well and off course he knows it's weaknesses. He is also very active on these same forums where all of Superman's tech has been discussed and exposed for weeks. Everything he used was and still is posted here in the TYM forums. The sad thing is that about all of them are gimmicks and somehow nobody knew about them. I don't claim that gimmicks won't work after they are exposed and I also don't expect everybody to be on TYM but I'm sure that if more people knew about those stuff KDZ would have had a much harder time. It is too early. I hope NRS keeps it's word and that they do give the rest of the cast a little buff here or there. I know this is a difficult task but it is not impossible. I fear that this time around they might do the same as MK and ruin their own game again.

 

[HardlyWalken]

Injustice did put up a terrible showing at EVO, Day 2 was good but the Top 8 was awful, awful, awful. Hope they do something better so that I actually want to watch it next year.

 

[August]

1. Agreed! Zoning is too strong in this game. In other games, it's more about positioning and spacing, but in this one, it's just pure keep away. The fact that projectiles don't clash and the width of the stage is huge makes zoning stronger than it should be. As an Ares player, even I have trouble with zoning, even though people think you can simply teleport and get in for free. But his teleport is too slow to do on reaction to most decent projectiles. MB godsmack is a good option too, but you have to time the MB correctly or the armor won't absorb the hit of the projectile.

2. I do agree that better anti airs should've been implemented. I'm glad they buffed d2, since it made characters like Batman less braindead. But there should've been more SRK moves.
3. I can't say I agree because I don't really know most of the characters' strings. However, with Ares, I think they did a pretty good job. A major problem with his strings at first glance is that he doesn't have any strings with low attacks besides f1d3. But they gave him a good d1 along with his trait that can be used as a low, although it can be interrupted in some cases. So I feel like this issue is more character specific.

4. The buffer window is odd. It definitely took some getting used to.

5. Yeah, the online ranked feels like it devolved from other games. That's a problem for online warriors.

6. I have mixed feelings about this one. There's some things that I'm glad they addressed, but there's other questionable things that should be looked at.

Overall, I honestly don't think I would still be playing this game if DC characters weren't in it. As a DC fan, I'm happy that they're finally getting some fighting game love after so many years. That's why I even stuck to MK vs DC for a while. I still like Injustice despite its flaws as, again, a DC fan. But I can't see myself playing online much longer. I think I might switch over to SFIV. Not going back to marvel though because of terribad online.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

First up, that's pretty dismissive of you CrimsonShadow. Obviously this doesn't seem like an "honest appraisal" to me and he asked for counterpoint feedback. Just because I disagree doesn't make it "kneejerk".

1. And to be clear, I understand completely that there's legitimate observation in having design issues with a character who excels both at ranged and at melee and how that seems counter-intuitive. However, I take exception with the way the OP minimizes aspects of the game to counter ranged projectile zoning like those tools just don't exist.

2. Generalizing that since there are obvious trash moves in any given characters movelist implies that there's a fundamental flaw with the game is inaccurate. As is ignoring that many other fighting games have this ssame issue.

I'm just being honest -- 'NRS nerfed deathstroke' is not a high-level assessment of zoning in a game.. This guy took the time to put his thoughts together and back it up with decent justification; so even if you disagree, if you're going to give 'feedback' at least make it worthwhile.

I don't want to argue this forever; but I think it's not difficult to understand.

 

[iShinnok03]

- Good keepaway characters that can also fight up close and in some cases do even better than those who must rush down. (Superman, Black Adam).
- Good keepaway characters with ultra high damage combos. (Superman, Black Adam).
- Good keepaway characters who can play safe all day. (Superman, Black Adam).
- Good keepaway characters with better mobility than other characters. (Superman, Black Adam).
- Snail-like walk speed in contrast to the size of the zoom. This benefits keepaway.
- Clash mechanic benefits keepaway because of meter reliance (which keepaway characters can build very fast) and aftermath distance.
- Chip damage too high.

 

[Zoidberg747]

Saboteur-6 was actually right, while zoning is strong in this game there are plenty of ways around it.

The only thing I agree with is the ranked matches. Everything else I disagree with.

 

[aldazo]

...KF slide is broken. KF resets are broken. Even if it would deal 10% dmg it would still be. Does it get patched? NO. Everyting else does. Same for Scorpion TP. Or Superman f23. Or Batman bats. The broken stuff IS obvious.

You nailed it. Finally someone speaks the truth.
(inb4 someone say "everybody have dirty tools, the game is balance in that sense"... smh.)

 

[kronspik]

Although I agree with pretty much everything in your post, this part is the big issue here.

1. Frame data (moves balance)
   Why superman f23 is fast, long range, cancellable juggle starter, while b23 slow, no range and deals 8%?
   Why bane f2 is -23 mid, while f2d (same move basically) is neurtal on block overhead?
   Why movelist is filled with trash moves, which only purpose is excuse for a cool name (like “dark knight rising” or “final hour”) next to it?
   Eventually we end up with “two days of f23” as someone described EVO 2013. It could easily have been “two days of b13” (Green Lantern) or “two days of b23” (Black Adam). Character moves are not balanced, not only between roster, but even between that same character movelist.
   Each move needs to fit a role. Safe, damaging, fast – pick two. The rule as old as fgs go.

This was a huge problem in MK9 too. If a character has a fast advancing (low or mid or overhead) safe combo starter, why the fuck does that character have any other strings? I'm actually curious how many characters in this game have more than 2 strings that are useful in neutral situations.