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General/Other Patch v1.05 Green Arrow changes

SimSim

SimSim

Norwegian Lab-work Champion
EOTL said:
Grabs are also unblockable and used in set ups to catch the opponent by using it's... unblockable property. Unblockable doesn't necessarily mean unavoidable. Its still a high damage super which does over 50% off any standard ice arrow mixup or confirm. You can also use it if you're very quick to catch people at mid-far range jumping to avoid lightning/fire arrow zoning

EDIT: Even if you only ever combo* into. The unblockable nature combined with the ice arrow reset allows for unscaled damage increasing damage output further.
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And yet GA's super is designed to hit people even if they are in hitstun or in early jump frames, so it's clearly very different from command grabs, and should not be compared with them. My argument is that, when NRS designed GA's super, there is no way they did not think of the implications of giving him an unblockable super with a decent hitbox, and they designed his other tools with this in mind too. This is probably one of the reasons why he has very bad damage mid screen imo.

Also, we are talking about damage from from 4 bars, which you will only use in round 2 most of the time (Because it's not worth spending 4 bars on the last 30%~of the opponents life bar if you manage to get super in round 1), where you are forced to give up a lot of damage to avoid having the opponent clash (gain back life and reset screen position), and by giving up this damage, also give up pressure, since you need to end with f3/b3 (The f3 just frame reset is too hard to get consistent from my experience).
 
Sao87

Sao87

@thedigitaldojo
SimSim said:
And yet GA's super is designed to hit people even if they are in hitstun or in early jump frames, so it's clearly very different from command grabs, and should not be compared with them. My argument is that, when NRS designed GA's super, there is no way they did not think of the implications of giving him an unblockable super with a decent hitbox, and they designed his other tools with this in mind too. This is probably one of the reasons why he has very bad damage mid screen imo.

Also, we are talking about damage from from 4 bars, which you will only use in round 2 most of the time (Because it's not worth spending 4 bars on the last 30%~of the opponents life bar if you manage to get super in round 1), where you are forced to give up a lot of damage to avoid having the opponent clash (gain back life and reset screen position), and by giving up this damage, also give up pressure, since you need to end with f3/b3 (The f3 just frame reset is too hard to get consistent from my experience).
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What is the f3 just frame reset?
 
SimSim

SimSim

Norwegian Lab-work Champion
Sao87 said:
What is the f3 just frame reset?
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If you b3/f3 someone, you can hit another b3/f3 right after this, but it will usually slam them away from you. If you time the 2nd f3 to hit the opponent on the last frame before he hits the ground, he will get hard knocked down (Can't tech roll- normal property of 2nd f3) but he will be forced to wake up right before you the instant he hits the ground, basically giving you a restand, and GA allegedly has a few + frames on this set up. Check out this thread:

http://www.testyourmight.com/threads/green-arrow-reset-no-meter-wait-what.34730/

PS: This is not GA only tech, but seems to be pretty universal from what I have heard.
 
Sao87

Sao87

@thedigitaldojo
SimSim said:
If you b3/f3 someone, you can hit another b3/f3 right after this, but it will usually slam them away from you. If you time the 2nd f3 to hit the opponent on the last frame before he hits the ground, he will get hard knocked down (Can't tech roll- normal property of 2nd f3) but he will be forced to wake up right before you the instant he hits the ground, basically giving you a restand, and GA allegedly has a few + frames on this set up. Check out this thread:

http://www.testyourmight.com/threads/green-arrow-reset-no-meter-wait-what.34730/

PS: This is not GA only tech, but seems to be pretty universal from what I have heard.
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Cool, I'll try it out.
 
Gin Tronic

Gin Tronic

Noob
Green Arrow, a character about no one says that he is fine the way he is. Some overacts to his "incredible" mixups and the GA players underrates him. His super reset should stay in the game like it is now. His 90% comebacks are not guaranteed! Are only possible if the opponent have already clashed and if the opponent doesn´t know how to pushblock. If the match is pretty even and you fake clash you need a tool to get a payoff for the high risk. The opponent gets nearly full life bar and you´re around 60% against a char with tracking zoning shit. His unclashable setup is about 60% for 4 bars. How many damage can Black Adam deal with 1 bar? GA have a weak BnB damage output midscreen, everybody who says his resets are OP should play him and you´ll see how much work it is to constantly pressure with him. If your gimmick arrows are blocked your pressure breaks and a lot of chars can avoid reloading your arrows full screen. Is there any secret tech who isn´t already known? I don´t know why NRS nerfs him constantly. With the wakeup buff, a lot of pressure/super reset setups are gone, nice. B+23 block adv nerf, nice, it never was a block infinite. Now we recieve the next nerf, it´s not a big nerf but it is a nerf. I think he is mid tier, never seen it before nerfing constantly a mid tier. But if NRS would buff him, he is close to the border to become broken. In my opinion GA is like Quan Chi, he crushes unexpirenced players and a medicore player with MU knowledge can shut him down. GA is great but against brain afk zoning you have a hard time to make him shine.

I only support a few of the suggested buffs you can read on TYM, like green Arrow on hit with 2%. I want less pushback on hit for 223 to get a crossup/non crossup/anti wakeup setup with "DEAD ON" midscreen. It´s -2 onblock plus landing frames and can be fullcombo punished, so it´s fair. The wake ups in the game are the worst part, I like to bait safe wakeups. And a lot of them can´t be neutral jumped because of Ice Arrow reload
 
EOTL

EOTL

...
SimSim said:
And yet GA's super is designed to hit people even if they are in hitstun or in early jump frames, so it's clearly very different from command grabs, and should not be compared with them. My argument is that, when NRS designed GA's super, there is no way they did not think of the implications of giving him an unblockable super with a decent hitbox, and they designed his other tools with this in mind too. This is probably one of the reasons why he has very bad damage mid screen imo.

Also, we are talking about damage from from 4 bars, which you will only use in round 2 most of the time (Because it's not worth spending 4 bars on the last 30%~of the opponents life bar if you manage to get super in round 1), where you are forced to give up a lot of damage to avoid having the opponent clash (gain back life and reset screen position), and by giving up this damage, also give up pressure, since you need to end with f3/b3 (The f3 just frame reset is too hard to get consistent from my experience).
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Shazam's grab hits people in hitstun, in perjump frames and in the air. Cyborgs grab hits people in histun, in prejump frames and in the air. I don't see anything wrong with the comparison.

I agree that NRS planned for this kind of thing to happen but you want everything whereas I'm happy having guaranteed resets of ice arrow and block confirms/111 on hit resets which require a strictly timed backdash to get out.

EDIT: Look I don't really wanna argue, I wished he woulda got a few buffs too. I can just understand why they would nerf a string which leads to suyper on both hit and block. Its not about being overpowered to me, its just that its braindead.
 
Phosferrax

Phosferrax

Original Liu Kang cop.
I think that as GA players we're carried quite a bit by the fact f2d13 is a tricky string to block and people still by default block low which opens them for b2.


When people learn to block like this, it's really going to push GA's footsies game, cus that's all he's getting at that point.
 
GodsLonelyman

GodsLonelyman

Kombatant
Phosferrax said:
I think that as GA players we're carried quite a bit by the fact f2d13 is a tricky string to block and people still by default block low which opens them for b2.


When people learn to block like this, it's really going to push GA's footsies game, cus that's all he's getting at that point.
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Exactly. This is what some of us are saying but others insist it's not the case. This is a good video that demonstrates how you can effectively completely shut down Green Arrow. At this point we can hope for no more nerfs at best, and at worst, 1 or 2 more nerfs down the road from NRS. I guess they see something we don't see.
 
Eddy Wang

Eddy Wang

Skarlet scientist
Phosferrax said:
I think that as GA players we're carried quite a bit by the fact f2d13 is a tricky string to block and people still by default block low which opens them for b2.


When people learn to block like this, it's really going to push GA's footsies game, cus that's all he's getting at that point.
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Can't get in, and when he does, he just wastes a ice arrow for the "incredibly good" countless mixup, then he is pushed away, has trouble because he has to load up again, and has to fight his way in again, then he wastes his arrow again, and the process repeats itself.
Until he gets in, already lost lots of damage to zoning, interactables, and etc.

Among the process:
Regular arrow does crap damage, so it doesn't matter how many times he fires it, it will never do good against zoning, even if the main point is to open a window to get in, regular arrow doesn't serve their Goal, this is probably one of those projectiles who are only good when blocked because is +3 on block.

I used to play Skarlet which her daggers is 2% on hit i guess, but her all other counter options complete the main goal of her zoning, they allowed her to get in, trade to get in, or to force impulsive zoning, also to force ppl to stop zoning and jump in, or to simply crouch.
 
Seapeople

Seapeople

This one's for you
GodsLonelyman said:
This is exactly what I feared but it's impossible to tell until we test. d1-arrow is already interruptable, imagine the f2d13 or f2d1-arrow mixup becomes interruptable. That would seriously hurt the character.
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F2d1~arrow is already very interruptible if the other person makes a read, or they could just fuzzy guard it instead.
 
GodsLonelyman

GodsLonelyman

Kombatant
Wasn;t the low arrows hitbox supposed to be fixed? I just tested and am still getting hit by high projectiles while in a crouching state with an arrow.
 
Eddy Wang

Eddy Wang

Skarlet scientist
His gameplay hasn't changed much after the patch, i can still do everything normally.

It seems his D2 hitbox was improved a bit too, i'm not sure if its a bit faster though maybe colt could explain ^^, i was able to win some trades against Batman J2 on Read and combo at will afterwards.

Btw, there still one 90% guaranteed reset combo from a blockstring only if the opponent doesn't has a full bar B13~super will produce nearly the same effect his old F2d13~super did. However it can be escaped as his Reset on hit, i wonder if NRS team did left it intentionally.

But there is ways to avoid it.
1. letting getting hit by the last hit of the string before the super, it will force GA to spend the whole bar and the super won't connect.
2. Response this tactic with the opponent's own super will blow him up.

Here is a few AA combos after the patch.
aaD2, J2, 22~Ice Arrow, J2, 223~Reload ice Arrow.
aaD2~MB Sky Alert, B3, J3, 22~Ice Arrow, J2, 22~Savage Blast, Reload ice arrow 27%

Reset
(well Placed) aaD2, B3, J3, 22~Ice Arrow, dash in~Reload ice Arrow, B13~Super, B3, J3, 22~Ice Arrow, J2 223, Reload Ice Arrow
 
shaowebb

shaowebb

Get your guns on. Sheriff is back.
Can't you still F2D1 low arrow though to cancel the overhead into a low to screw with people or does the cancel advantage thing also effect that too strongly to use the low arrow option as part of your mixup?
 
SimSim

SimSim

Norwegian Lab-work Champion
Joker8417 said:
So two very minor changes and arrow is useless? Where do you guys come up with this stuff? lol
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There wasn't many of us claiming he was useless. In fact most of us argue that it doesn't affect us much. What we do want though, is for some of his broken (in a bad way) stuff to be fixed and for some of his other moves to be slightly buffed to make them more useful. When they are nerfing GA every patch without adding anything positive, this makes us want to speak up.
 
Briggs8417

Briggs8417

Salt Proprietor of TYM
SimSim said:
There wasn't many of us claiming he was useless. In fact most of us argue that it doesn't affect us much. What we do want though, is for some of his broken (in a bad way) stuff to be fixed and for some of his other moves to be slightly buffed to make them more useful. When they are nerfing GA every patch without adding anything positive, this makes us want to speak up.
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I understand the speaking up about nerfing him when it's unnecessary. I was kinda just calling out the people who were calling him useless.
 
ShenChan

ShenChan

Noob
d.2 buff is really good. It's faster and have better hitbox now. I think it's one of the best AAs along side Aquaman if not the best one.
 
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