Discussion - "Shut up and get better"

[MorbidAltruism]

For me, the true hype comes from watching characters - who have real disadvantages OR haven't been fully explored - win. I was really pleased when Sonya, Jax and Shang started gaining tourney momentum in MK9. Looking forward to similar happenings with Injustice. Judge me all you want, but I love an underdog.

I feel exactly the same way. I really loved watching WoundCowboy's Shang Tsung in tournaments. I mean it is great to see the underdog win...

 

[GrundyFox]

For me, the true hype comes from watching characters - who have real disadvantages OR haven't been fully explored - win. I was really pleased when Sonya, Jax and Shang started gaining tourney momentum in MK9. Looking forward to similar happenings with Injustice. Judge me all you want, but I love an underdog.

Nothing to judge whatsoever, you're not throwing out smug one-liners. Fact is I agree with you.

 

[Swindle]

Yeah, Capcom here too. I like MK9 and IGAU, flaws and all. Not that Cap makes flawless games (I think projectile trading is for the birds). IMHO, I would take IGAU over Tekken any day.

 

[Swindle]

Wow, botched that quote-job. Damn Android phones

 

[GrundyFox]

Ah, I don't think I will ever say I like MK. I'm old lol. I come from back in the day when sf2 was brand spanking new in the arcade and then out of now where MK made its appearance (sometime after). There was a line drawn in the sand very quickly; you were either a SF player or a MK player.

You never mingled.

I've never been able to get over that mentality

However, that said, I do like GAU even with its simplistic gameplay and flaws. Well, flaws I perceive.

 

[Eji1700]

TL;DR My question is this, basically... How much merit does "Shut up and get better" have if it's coming from the mouth (or fingers) from someone who either isn't very good at all, or is abusing something that is "questionably balanced" because they themselves know they aren't very good?

I'm sorry, what?

If someone is worse than you, and they beat you, they have ever right to say shut up and get better, because clearly you're actually worse than them.

If someone is "abusing" something that's "questionably balanced" they're doing what EVERY OTHER MAJOR FIGHTING GAME COMPETITOR HAS DONE. If they beat you because something was questionably balanced then you can 1. get better at dealing with it 2. switch to someone who's better at dealing with it/abusing it 3. quit the game because you feel it's poorly balanced.

Your example otherwise is silly. Good thing "skill" isn't determined by a single round and we have counter pick rules in place to deal with this stuff. There's merit to looking into stage balance, but honestly, right now I don't see anything to really complain about. Don't like it? Pick a power character. Better yet, depending on the tournament, ask for first round random. Otherwise, yes, deal with it. NRS might patch it, they might not, and unless they see people breaking out the broken shit at EVO, i'd say it's here to stay.

 

[Swindle]

Completely off-topic, but where's the best place to go for the NRS E3 coverage?

 

[MorbidAltruism]

Completely off-topic, but where's the best place to go for the NRS E3 coverage?

This is probably a good place. Or the official E3 page.

 

[Posthuman]

I honestly think they should ban interactables.

I agree, interactables dumb the game down so much is not even funny!

 

[Hellbringer]

So basically this thread is about salty people who lose to lesser skilled players and blame it on the game? smh

 

[Ermaculate_Slim]

Ahhh yes. "Shut up and get better." It's a phrase that we've all heard at some point in our fighting game experiences. Whether your enraged about how you lost or whether you're innocently stating your opinion on why something might be overpowered or broken, you are almost guaranteed to be smacked a few times with "Shut up and get better," "Learn to play," or something along those lines.

While I do agree with the message itself, I just want to call to attention the hippocrisy that is often coupled with this statement.

For example: Player A picks a power character, and Player B picks an acrobat character. Stage select chooses Metro rooftop, a stage with respawning interactables (with stupid big hitboxes) that can be thrown by power characters, but not by acrobats. Player A is a decent player, but Player B demonstrates throughout the match that he is the better player at a fundamental level as far as punishes, spacing, blocking etc go. The match is close, however, at the end of the match, Player A emerges victorious by virtue of interactables.

Player B, obviously frustrated, says to Player A "wow, really? that's how I lose?" to which Player A responds "Shut up and get better."

Now, I understand that is a rather extreme example (and the purpose of this thread is to not pick apart that one example), however my point is the saying of "shut up and get better" is said by a player who is not very good at all, or at least won the match in a way that, to put it bluntly, isn't very indicative of the player having "skill" or "being better." To me, it would be like a boxing match in which one boxer payed the ref off and was delivering cheap shots the entire match, and after the other boxer disputes the ref says "shut up and get better."

TL;DR My question is this, basically... How much merit does "Shut up and get better" have if it's coming from the mouth (or fingers) from someone who either isn't very good at all, or is abusing something that is "questionably balanced" because they themselves know they aren't very good



Dam and I thought I was the only one who noticed the hypocrisy on this site.....who knew?

 

[Posthuman]

Sorry. I think we are in the same boat where the people on this site are making us crazy haha. This community has really gone to shit.

I blame the new members that just came for injustice!

 

[HGTV Soapboxfan]

Fact? No, what you said was an opinion. There is an astronomical difference even between a well informed opinion (not that I implying you have given one) and a emphatic fact. The fact that you're still going on with black and white terminology screams you just don't understand that subtle difference.

I was using fact to back up my opinion. Fact: both players have access to the same tools
Opinion: it is up to the loser to step up their game, not the winner.
I'm done with you though because you obviously have nothing to contribute the conversation, neither fact nor opinion.

 

[HGTV Soapboxfan]

Curious if GrundyFox has anything else to add besides being Soapbox's grammar nazi. With all due respect, Mr. Fox

Lol yeah... to be fair I'm using my phone and this argument has been like 10 versus 1 and it's really hard to keep up so most of my posts are probably barely legible.

 

[Saffa]

Can NRS please make Green Arrow a power character? Like give him roids or some shit.

K thanks.

 

[GrundyFox]

I was using fact to back up my opinion. Fact: both players have access to the same tools

Sure, if all fighting games had only one character to use. Ever. Are you starting to catch on how your nebulous one-liners are as empty as:

Opinion: it is up to the loser to step up their game, not the winner.

Thats odd, thats like implying no game should ever be modulated, ever. Oh wait, pretty much all fighting games nowadays have adjustments sooner or later. I guess trying to sum it up with trite little remarks like "adapt" and "level up" actually aren't all encompassing remarks that can me smeared over every character discussion like some kind of shit spread. Thanks but I'll pass on the turd burger.

I'm done with you though because you obviously have nothing to contribute the conversation, neither fact nor opinion.

 

[jonnzz]

Most of the old FG's where extremely unbalanced.
Some MU's where simply not winnable. It didn't prevent a lot of people from playing low tier characters and achieving good results. Patches simply did not exist so being a lazy crybaby was not even an option. Either you made a name for yourself by being the best of a very large pack of tier-whores, or you could work hard to become a low tier hero. The fact that counterpick was not even allowed also helped, because you were tied to your character in success and in failure.

If balance is a problem, why play a game which you know might be subject to this kind of issues ? Why not simply play completely symmetric games (for example Chess or Go) where you will shine by your skill, talent and knowledge alone ? Oh yeah sorry, these games require hard work to get even extremely basic knowledge and understanding.

The crux of the matter is not balance. It's dedication and courage. Low tier heroes have one extremely impressive feature: their ego can bear countless bad losses without blaming anything other than their own skill, which allows them to keep on trying until they get rewarded for their effort. And they always get rewarded, at least through the audience recognition and admiration, be it on a local, national or international level.

 

[HGTV Soapboxfan]

Sure, if all fighting games had only one character to use. Ever. Are you starting to catch on how your nebulous one-liners are as empty as:



Thats odd, thats like implying no game should ever be modulated, ever. Oh wait, pretty much all fighting games nowadays have adjustments sooner or later. I guess trying to sum it up with trite little remarks like "adapt" and "level up" actually aren't all encompassing remarks that can me smeared over every character discussion like some kind of shit spread. Thanks but I'll pass on the turd burger.

But you can both pick the same character and have the same tools, so both players do have the same tools. And games get patches because the designers don't think the gaming is being played the way they designed it (I mean besides nrs, they listen to bitching, that's undeniable). And the word adapt does apply to every character discussion. If you are talking about patching, it would imply that whatever tool is too good to be adapted to. That's what the discussion would be. However it's way too soon for that in this game.

 

[HGTV Soapboxfan]

Alright. I give up. Everything that needs to be said on the matter has been said. Truth is, people who think my way are in small numbers these days. And obviously I'm not convincing anyone. Just know that I'm going to say the same thing every time you bitch.

 

[GrundyFox]

But you can both pick the same character and have the same tools, so both players do have the same tools.

Of course you can but that doesn't happen all the time or even close to all the time. So, no, typically you don't have access to the same tools. In no way am I saying thats good or bad, just pointing out your blanket statements are unrealistic.

And games get patches because the designers don't think the gaming is being played the way they designed it (I mean besides nrs, they listen to bitching, that's undeniable).

Nice semantics argument. I almost can't believe you put that up there. So only the devs should be able to realize something if off (to sum it up) with the game? You do realize devs gather data from the players to decide if something is off or not. But, if no one should ever say anything and just "adapt" or what ever trite saying gets barfed up pertaining to this, how would they ever know in the first place?

Laughable.

And the word adapt does apply to every character discussion.

Not in the all encompassing way you're trying to pass it off as. It's absurd. I remember when these terms first were used back in SF4 when people said Sagat was too strong. You were a whiner, L2P, adapt and all that BS. Funny how much silence fell when Mago (the best Sagat player in Japan by far) basically said, yeah he's too good and needs to be toned down.

The fact is, you can't use such statements to just shut down every discussion about it, like you're some kind of FG sage, by uttering adapt and other blanket statements. Catchy one-liners are never actually as catchy as people think.

IHowever it's way too soon for that in this game.

Is it too soon? I would actually say it probably is unless its something glaring (which is debatable with scorpion) and I don't like reactionary, knee-jerk, patches in general. However, that said, for the umpteenth time robust discussion about it rather than tossing out stupid one-liners is a better way to go about handling it.

 

[Reauxbot]

I feel the pain of interactables as I'm a Harley, Batgirl and Nightwing Player. The best I can do is destroy the intractable if I can before power characters start blowing my ass away with em.

 

[Juggs]

The reason you see it so often is because everyone seems to be complaining about everything all the time. Instead of actually training to beat something and work on it for hours and hours for weeks, everyone just comes on TYM and whines in hopes that it will get nerfed. Most people on this forum DO need to just shut up and get better. The problem is that this message lacks tact and most people will just see it as an insult.

If you guys would work hard to beat something and after tireless effort and many many hours of work you still have found no ways to beat it... that's when you start asking around how to beat it. But the problem with this is first of all most of you don't work for hours and hours trying to beat it, you can't beat it after a few matches then you come whining on TYM. However, even if you have done this, you don't constructively ask what to do, you make a thread crying about it saying it's too powerful and needs to be nerfed. Like if YOU can't figure out how to beat it, obviously no one else can and it obviously is too good.

Everyone wants everything spoon fed to them these days. If it isn't easy to beat, instead of working hard to conquer it, you cower in defeat and cry about it. You all remind me of spoiled brats who when they don't get their way, they pitch a fit until Mommy comes and makes it all better again. The lot of you sicken me.

 

[SaltShaker]

I'm willing to wait and continue to learn on almost everything else in this game. Except ridiculous interactables.

For the MK players, imagine if Kenshi could jump up and throw respawning interactables at you for 18%, along with his zoning and your char couldn't. I wonder how you would have "adapted".


When they show their face at Evo and singlehandedly eliminate a couple of better players, more people bitch, and NRS nerfs the retarded hitbox and damage of them. Well...

Considered me having adapted.

 

[Onilordasmodeus]

The main problem with people taking offense to the term "adapt" is that most people don't know what the term means in this context. They think they know what it means, but in reality it is a word with a wide birth of conotations as it pertains to a fighting game.

The term adapt can mean anything from:

• changing your own overall mindset of how you see and play the game (the actual players stance on how the game is to be played in the real world).
• to changing how someone plays in a particular match-up, on a particular stage, in that specific moment against that specific player.

The former is a complete choice that many players decided a long time ago before they even started playing games. If you soley play to "have fun," or so your opponent can have fun (think about it), have at it! But don't complain about losses by saying things like "I'm better but I'm loosing to BS," because that doesn't fly. The "BS" is a part of the game, and as such is fair game. Some things may be OP, and if you choose not to use them for one reason or another that is on you, not the other player. You play your game, they play theirs.

The latter is a skill most people don't have, but the many who recognize that they lack this work hard to achieve it. Most beginners don't even know where to begin on this front, and as such their first incling is to cry foul because they lost to something they don't understand or see as cheap.

Talking specifically about the Metro Rooftop stage now, the interactibles on that stage ARE a huge issue as they are very frequent, AND in many cases are unavoidable. That being said, THAT IS A FACT THAT BOTH PLAYERS SHOULD KNOW, and if you go into a match unprepared for the facts at hand (whether it be the character you chose of the tactics you employ), that is your fault; you can't blame the game or the other player.

@HGTV Soapboxfan hit the nail right on the head early on and is continuing to hit it. Most of the issues the TC and others are talking about are design issues that are just a part of the game. If you don't like them or want to complain about them, be constructive and start a dialouge, that or send a letter to NRS or somebody else directly. Don't start the conversation with outlandish stuff like "DS is Kano 2.0," or something equally close minded because at that point you are asking to be blown up. Coming here to beg and plead for changes because you lost or failed to work out your short comings falls on deaf ears to many here...or at least me.

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

Typically .... this term is simply for those who don't knwo what else to say...... but simply don't want to say "What i'm doing is broken and dumb"