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I Am Gotham's Reckoning -- Bane General Discussion Thread

Hiryu02

Noob
If you command grab and they jump, they get out. If you b23 and they push block, they get out. If you b23/b1/whatever and they have a solid wakeup, they get out.

Bane is great in the corner. But sometimes people guess right the first time and they get out.
They push block, they are STILL in the corner and you are in the range where they can't jump forward either to get out of the corner. Resume corner pressure.

The command grab getting jumped happens in or out of the corner, it's why we have double punch, venom upper, normal attacks, etc.

I don't know what your background is, but I've been playing grapplers for a long time. I would kill for Abel to have the low and overhead tools Bane has in this game.
 

big_aug

Kombatant
They push block, they are STILL in the corner and you are in the range where they can't jump forward either to get out of the corner. Resume corner pressure.

The command grab getting jumped happens in or out of the corner, it's why we have double punch, venom upper, normal attacks, etc.

I don't know what your background is, but I've been playing grapplers for a long time. I would kill for Abel to have the low and overhead tools Bane has in this game.
So yea, it's still a guessing game. They can also jump out of b23. They might never guess right. They might guess right on the first knockdown. That's how it goes.

The corner is obviously where you want to be, but you haven't played enough matches if someone hasn't gotten out of the corner as soon as you put them there.
 

Hiryu02

Noob
So yea, it's still a guessing game. They can also jump out of b23. They might never guess right. They might guess right on the first knockdown. That's how it goes.

And?

I guess you don't play this type of character in other games. This is what he does. He gets the kd, and mixes you up on wakeup. He's not gonna zone you out. This is his design. Either you have yomi and you can condition and read your opponent and get consistent results or you don't and you can't.

I'm not sure why the weaknesses of his type of gameplay seem so overwhelming to you. If they are deal breakers for you then play another character.

Saying oh he loses to this strat is like saying oh Ryu can srk you then combo you into ultra if you make a bad jump on him. No shit. It's what the character does.

chief713: If only I didn't have to burn meter to make roll invincible to meaty fireballs, lol. It's still a good tool regardless, just not braindead to use.
 

big_aug

Kombatant
And?

I guess you don't play this type of character in other games. This is what he does. He gets the kd, and mixes you up on wakeup. He's not gonna zone you out. This is his design. Either you have yomi and you can condition and read your opponent and get consistent results or you don't and you can't.

I'm not sure why the weaknesses of his type of gameplay seem so overwhelming to you. If they are deal breakers for you then play another character.

Saying oh he loses to this strat is like saying oh Ryu can srk you then combo you into ultra if you make a bad jump on him. No shit. It's what the character does.

chief713: If only I didn't have to burn meter to make roll invincible to meaty fireballs, lol. It's still a good tool regardless, just not braindead to use.
And it's a guessing game. Getting someone in the corner isn't the be all end all. You don't insta-win for it like people make it sound. That's all I'm saying.

And quite frankly, you can go fuck yourself.
 

Hiryu02

Noob
No, your post reeks of condescending asshole.
And that gives you power over me? #sarcasm.

Regardless, you like to misrepresent and imply things that were never stated. You downplay tactical advantages like getting someone in the corner by retreating to your catchphrase "it's a guessing game". You reply to things that were never said, like getting someone in the corner is a "insta-win, be-all end-all". Again, that was never mentioned.

To entertain your argument, that the situation is a guessing game, completely disregards any type of skill or matchup knowledge the player may have. We may as well idly spin the joystick and mash random buttons if the game can truly be reduced to guessing. Many things in FG's are going to come down to making a read at a critical moment. Not to mention player habits, conditioning, and yomi. If you want to just write off all the angles of the scenario as just "guessing", be my guest. Insult me more, but it doesn't counter my points.

You really seem to get mad at this character, and the way he is played effectively. I don't know why you subject yourself to the torture that posting here must be for you.
 

big_aug

Kombatant
And that gives you power over me? #sarcasm.

Regardless, you like to misrepresent and imply things that were never stated. You downplay tactical advantages like getting someone in the corner by retreating to your catchphrase "it's a guessing game". You reply to things that were never said, like getting someone in the corner is a "insta-win, be-all end-all". Again, that was never mentioned.

To entertain your argument, that the situation is a guessing game, completely disregards any type of skill or matchup knowledge the player may have. We may as well idly spin the joystick and mash random buttons if the game can truly be reduced to guessing. Many things in FG's are going to come down to making a read at a critical moment. Not to mention player habits, conditioning, and yomi. If you want to just write off all the angles of the scenario as just "guessing", be my guest. Insult me more, but it doesn't counter my points.

You really seem to get mad at this character, and the way he is played effectively. I don't know why you subject yourself to the torture that posting here must be for you.

The game IS guessing. Well, prediction would be more accurate. You are trying to use past actions to predict what someone will do. If your prediction is wrong, then they get out of the corner. You think someone is going to block low. You use a command grab. They jump. Your prediction, or guess, was wrong. Or maybe you use a normal string and they wake up with an invincible attack. You were wrong and they get out.

Yes, being in the corner is advantageous. It's advantageous for THE ENTIRE CAST.

The only reason I said anything was because someone said that if opponents keep running, they'll end up in the corner. Well, they might end up in the corner. We might dominate them in the corner. They might not end up in the corner, and even if they do, they might correctly predict what you were going to do and escape immediately. Then the chase continues.
 

regulas

Your Emporer
I highly suggest the both of you just end this discussion, it's not going in a positive direction and I would hate to see it degrade any further.
 

Hiryu02

Noob
The game IS guessing. Well, prediction would be more accurate. You are trying to use past actions to predict what someone will do. If your prediction is wrong, then they get out of the corner. You think someone is going to block low. You use a command grab. They jump. Your prediction, or guess, was wrong.

Yes, being in the corner is advantageous. It's advantageous for THE ENTIRE CAST.

The only reason I said anything was because someone said that if opponents keep running, they'll end up in the corner. Well, they might end up in the corner. We might dominate them in the corner. They might not end up in the corner, and even if they do, they might correctly predict what you were going to do and escape immediately. Then the chase continues.

Okay. I think it's safe to say we prioritize things differently in this game.

I agree with your last paragraph, with a caveat. In the corner, you can guess and get out. This is true. However I simply feel that it is up to the player to maximize his pressure and damage in the corner, and to do this via the use of conditioning, to minimize the need for prediction.

To take that further, I think that Bane shines if you can force your opponents into these guessing games, while conditioning them into making the guess you want.

I'll use an example from SF4 Abel. If I can force the opp to block a stepkick, then I dash cancel and I am now at point blank range with +1/+0. This is where the majority of the mixup comes in.

The opponent can block, throw, attack, backdash or jump. Block and attack lose to EX Tornado Throw. Jump/regular attack loses to my attack, which leads into full combo. Throw beats my attack and EX TT, but loses to regular TT. Backdash beats all these options except Overhead attack from me.

You would think that opponents just backdashed all the time, right? Well they don't. Surprisingly, most opponents stop backdashing after I tag them once or twice with overhead to knock them out of the backdash. Additionally after I land OH, they reset into the perfect range for stepkick so I can start the mixup again.

In general. after the first failed jump or backdash, people sit there til I throw them. Then they start trying to mash out, which I usually counter by attacking into full combo.

I've been playing Abel since the game came out consistently, and people still get conditioned the exact same way 4 years later.

I think Bane is viable because he has the tools to produce the same situation as above, but without stepkick. Instead his armored grab beats attack, grab, block, and even backdash at certain timings. Therefore the only real "escape" is jump as you said. But if you start conditioning them to abandon jumping with uppercut and double punch, eventually they will stop jumping and you get to start the command grab/meaty combo starter mixup again.

In a regular match, you only need 1 or 2 combo starters to take your opponent out with judicous use of meter and venom. So, you have a 33/33/33 mixup. 33% to command grab into another mixup. 33% to combo starter into 40-50% damage (venomed/metered) and 33% to get a knockdown with double punch or upper to lead into kd, back into pressure.

Therefore, the mixup is 66% in your favor. The reward for the mixup varies depending on what you land, but the opponent has only a one in three chance of picking the correct option. I will take those odds any day.

Edit: I'm not trying to exacerbate the argument, I'm just trying to explain my position. I will refrain from antagonizing Big Aug and I would like to instead present my points via explanation, as shown by the wall of text above.
 

big_aug

Kombatant
Okay. I think it's safe to say we prioritize things differently in this game.

I agree with your last paragraph, with a caveat. In the corner, you can guess and get out. This is true. However I simply feel that it is up to the player to maximize his pressure and damage in the corner, and to do this via the use of conditioning, to minimize the need for prediction.

To take that further, I think that Bane shines if you can force your opponents into these guessing games, while conditioning them into making the guess you want.

I'll use an example from SF4 Abel. If I can force the opp to block a stepkick, then I dash cancel and I am now at point blank range with +1/+0. This is where the majority of the mixup comes in.

The opponent can block, throw, attack, backdash or jump. Block and attack lose to EX Tornado Throw. Jump/regular attack loses to my attack, which leads into full combo. Throw beats my attack and EX TT, but loses to regular TT. Backdash beats all these options except Overhead attack from me.

You would think that opponents just backdashed all the time, right? Well they don't. Surprisingly, most opponents stop backdashing after I tag them once or twice with overhead to knock them out of the backdash. Additionally after I land OH, they reset into the perfect range for stepkick so I can start the mixup again.

In general. after the first failed jump or backdash, people sit there til I throw them. Then they start trying to mash out, which I usually counter by attacking into full combo.

I've been playing Abel since the game came out consistently, and people still get conditioned the exact same way 4 years later.

I think Bane is viable because he has the tools to produce the same situation as above, but without stepkick. Instead his armored grab beats attack, grab, block, and even backdash at certain timings. Therefore the only real "escape" is jump as you said. But if you start conditioning them to abandon jumping with uppercut and double punch, eventually they will stop jumping and you get to start the command grab/meaty combo starter mixup again.

In a regular match, you only need 1 or 2 combo starters to take your opponent out with judicous use of meter and venom. So, you have a 33/33/33 mixup. 33% to command grab into another mixup. 33% to combo starter into 40-50% damage (venomed/metered) and 33% to get a knockdown with double punch or upper to lead into kd, back into pressure.

Therefore, the mixup is 66% in your favor. The reward for the mixup varies depending on what you land, but the opponent has only a one in three chance of picking the correct option. I will take those odds any day.

Edit: I'm not trying to exacerbate the argument, I'm just trying to explain my position. I will refrain from antagonizing Big Aug and I would like to instead present my points via explanation, as shown by the wall of text above.
I don't disagree with you. The biggest problem is that the damage on double punch is nothing to worry about for an opponent. Eating two, three, or four double punches in a row is not a big deal. That's one combo worth of damage for anyone else. So they have conditioned us to stop the jump for the price of ~30%. This is especially the case if people are trading wakeup attacks with double punch. It's an even trade for many characters. The goal when playing Bane is to avoid the combo and avoid command grab/charge when venom is up. Double punch is not really anything to fear.
 

Doombawkz

Trust me, I'm a doctor
I don't disagree with you. The biggest problem is that the damage on double punch is nothing to worry about for an opponent. Eating two, three, or four double punches in a row is not a big deal. That's one combo worth of damage for anyone else. So they have conditioned us to stop the jump for the price of ~30%. The goal when playing Bane is to avoid the combo and avoid command grab/charge when venom is up. Double punch is not something to fear.
f.2.d is, with much more reach and being able to be linked into anything you want. To my knowledge, f.2.d d.b.f.3 is in the area of some decent enough damage. You can't jump out of f.2.d either, you have to block it high. As to your earlier comments about how "its just a guessing game so we don't dominate in the corner or etc", they have an equal chance of guessing wrong and finding themselves unable to fight back while taking damage for free and setting up another guess, and all in all being the attacker we naturally have more options to work with. This isn't including the hard knockdown grab set-ups with you HAVE to grab immune out of to avoid since there isn't time enough to jump away.
 

Hiryu02

Noob
I don't disagree with you. The biggest problem is that the damage on double punch is nothing to worry about for an opponent. Eating two, three, or four double punches in a row is not a big deal. That's one combo worth of damage for anyone else. So they have conditioned us to stop the jump for the price of ~30%. This is especially the case if people are trading wakeup attacks with double punch. It's an even trade for many characters. The goal when playing Bane is to avoid the combo and avoid command grab/charge when venom is up. Double punch is not really anything to fear.

As Doombawks pointed out there is the F2D move as well. To your point though, low damage on DP doesn't lower it's effectiveness in getting to a point of advantage e.g. getting the kd so we can pressure on wakeup.

DP gives the knockdown, can be comboed into off near anything, safe on block, and if you have venom up functions as a frame trap if you do blocked DP, then venomed special again.

Again I think I prioritize getting a kd more highly than you do in this game. For me any tool that gives kd is a good one, low damage notwithstanding.
 

regulas

Your Emporer
Our double punch is now neutral on block instead of -5, and gives us about 23 frames more advantage on hit than it used to. That's crazy.
Interesting, mostly I guess it gives better Oki set-up in the corner? And better chance of armord follow-up. Anything else you have seen I don't know his stats to well, but it felt like something else was off somewhere, like his B1 or B2.
 

Doombawkz

Trust me, I'm a doctor
Interesting, mostly I guess it gives better Oki set-up in the corner? And better chance of armord follow-up. Anything else you have seen I don't know his stats to well, but it felt like something else was off somewhere, like his B1 or B2.
It means midscreen we can double punch and have time to dash in and go meaty. We are testing everything atm. We'll let everyone know once we ourselves know for sure.
 

LEGI0N47

I like to play bad characters
And here I was, trying to say that double punch SHOULD be negative on block to allow jumps, back dashes, and fast normals to counter.

This is ridiculous. I can't believe they'd give us neutral on block. :confused:
I don't see why not considering all our other specials can be punished pretty hard on whif. and it's damage is lackluster + does not lead to combos. I understand it knocks them down which is good but it's not like we got super safe slide or something.
 
I don't see why not considering all our other specials can be punished pretty hard on whif. and it's damage is lackluster + does not lead to combos. I understand it knocks them down which is good but it's not like we got super safe slide or something.

Haha, I know.

But damn, more buffs. Chef will not be pleased.
 
The greatest thing about wrecking people online with a bottom tier character: You know it's only going to get easier as time goes on.