Awesome Argument on WNF

[VIDA]

Is it just me, or was everyone mostly fine with the balance and fairness of the game until this patch didnt come? Sure there are issues as with any game in this genre has had and will have but isnt it a little much for the professional and tournament scene to explode b/c a patch is a little late? Esp considering the lateness is probably due to psn M$ approval and other red tape.

Im no pro but to me the game has enough depth, balance, and char-to-char uniqueness to be very interesting so far, with things that need to be patched like every game that was released not too long ago, heck like with every game. And till now I thought everyone was mostly on the same boat, dont know what to think of its reception now. Hopefully if the patch comes out next it will calm everyone's worries.

As far as genericness goes, when I saw that this game had the iconic uppercut, and when I heard one of the lead designers say they didnt want to stray too far from the formula of chars having the same base, I too was initially disappointed. However then I realized, when it comes to actual fighting, everyone essentially uses the same punches, kicks, TDs...etc as a base, the true differences is how they execute those basic moves, in addition to less basic moves. Is Muay Thai generic cause everyone essentially uses the same punches, kicks, knees...etc? No.

Also, in terms of a game not having that many variables compared to another...why is that a big deal? Again lets look at actual fighting: boxing only entails two guys standing on their feet, and punching above the belt. Thats it. Muay Thai has the elbows, knees, kicks..etc added in. Does that make boxing 'generic' and 'simplistic'? No, it makes it more refined and focused to one aspect, rather than being more multi-dimensional, which is just its own thing, that makes deep in its own sense. And also isnt that why most prefer SF to GG and BB? Arc system games are ridiculously deep and complex but ppl view that as a negative and stick to a less complex system like SF, where things are still interesting and deep in their own right.

And lets not lose sight that NRS had MANY gameplay goals to satisfy with this game, bring back all chars from MK1-UMK3, have them retain similar movesets adjusted for the modern day scene while still making a balanced game that was still essentially MK in gameplay style.

Playing MK and SC just makes more sense for me to play than the other games of the genre, b/c theyre more my thing. I dont see any crisis, I understand the concern but lets see what happens with this patch before you criticise the game's tourney viability.

 

[JennyCage]

Here's an argument to consider about universal normals: in chess, both players have symmetrical tools at their disposal. Neither has an innate advantage over the other, and consequently the competitive gameplay revolves around whoever is better at strategizing, reading and outwitting their opponent. The same thing can be applied to MK9's handful of universal normals. If two players jumpkick each other, the winner is going to be whoever was intelligent enough to read their opponent first, rather than who's character may have an innate frame/priority advantage. Granted, learning the nuances of 100% unique characters and their matchups is both complex and satisfying to a competitive player (I'm a King of Fighters player so I can certainly appreciate it), but I don't feel having a few universal normals reduces the depth of gameplay to the point that MK9 cannot be competitive or be appreciated by competitive players. I also feel it's naive to believe that the potential of characters has already been fully explored when the game is only 2 months old. Finally, many characters do have unique normals - some are longer or shorter ranged, faster or slower executing, or better priority than others.

I do regret that the footsies game is little more than a poke/interrupt game right now and wish it could be expanded upon, but overall, I think with appropriate support (removal of infinites/resets/counter repeaters, bomb trap, and other balance fixes) MK9 will deserve to be called a competitive fighting game.

 

[AC1984]

my 2 cents for the UMK3 thing... That game is awesome but as REO and Juggs pointed out it is generic and at higher levels it usually comes down to run jabs, knee starters and d+4 escapes (REO quote again.) With today's technology, they can do the MK of anyone's wet dreams but for some reason they don't. MK9 is an amazing game and I love it but as a casual player, fan boy and a one who wants to compete and get better, I would do some of the stuff differently...Still MK is what it is...take or leave it...I'll take it

 

[PunchYaFace]

Man this thread has really made me sad. I guess I thought there was more to this game. I see all of the points made against it and see why it's getting the hate. But has any major toury been won by a complete scrub? I may be wrong but it seems the players with higher skill have been consistently finishing near the top? Isn't that the way it should be? I'm just saying Let's wait til after EVO to cast Jugdement. Maybe all the best comp for MK will put on a good show. It not impossible for someone to work on something new and surprise people with new tech. But I don't have time to explore this game as much as I would like. So my knowledge of it is limited.

 

[cabibi]

Is it just me, or was everyone mostly fine with the balance and fairness of the game until this patch didnt come? Sure there are issues as with any game in this genre has had and will have but isnt it a little much for the professional and tournament scene to explode b/c a patch is a little late? Esp considering the lateness is probably due to psn M$ approval and other red tape.

Im no pro but to me the game has enough depth, balance, and char-to-char uniqueness to be very interesting so far, with things that need to be patched like every game that was released not too long ago, heck like with every game. And till now I thought everyone was mostly on the same boat, dont know what to think of its reception now. Hopefully if the patch comes out next it will calm everyone's worries.

As far as genericness goes, when I saw that this game had the iconic uppercut, and when I heard one of the lead designers say they didnt want to stray too far from the formula of chars having the same base, I too was initially disappointed. However then I realized, when it comes to actual fighting, everyone essentially uses the same punches, kicks, TDs...etc as a base, the true differences is how they execute those basic moves, in addition to less basic moves. Is Muay Thai generic cause everyone essentially uses the same punches, kicks, knees...etc? No.

Also, in terms of a game not having that many variables compared to another...why is that a big deal? Again lets look at actual fighting: boxing only entails two guys standing on their feet, and punching above the belt. Thats it. Muay Thai has the elbows, knees, kicks..etc added in. Does that make boxing 'generic' and 'simplistic'? No, it makes it more refined and focused to one aspect, rather than being more multi-dimensional, which is just its own thing, that makes deep in its own sense. And also isnt that why most prefer SF to GG and BB? Arc system games are ridiculously deep and complex but ppl view that as a negative and stick to a less complex system like SF, where things are still interesting and deep in their own right.

And lets not lose sight that NRS had MANY gameplay goals to satisfy with this game, bring back all chars from MK1-UMK3, have them retain similar movesets adjusted for the modern day scene while still making a balanced game that was still essentially MK in gameplay style.

Playing MK and SC just makes more sense for me to play than the other games of the genre, b/c theyre more my thing. I dont see any crisis, I understand the concern but lets see what happens with this patch before you criticise the game's tourney viability.

I think people are just getting more time to be exposed to the unballanced tactics. It's frustrating as all hell when the only players you loose to are the ones that spam up balls, spam quan chi teleports and trance resets, and take away the wake up game with kung lao's safe spin. It's almost like because these fixes were made public, people decided to use that information to exploit what's currently broken until the patch fixes them. It's cheap and aggravating.

 

[Ilthuain]

... I dont see any crisis, I understand the concern but lets see what happens with this patch before you criticise the game's tourney viability.

The "crisis" is an invention of internet busybodies. The game could use some improvement, but the way people are talking about it, it's like it's unplayable or it suffers from totally insane exploits that completely dominate play.

As time goes by, fighting game forums become indistinguishable from Blizzard forums. Everyone is losing their mud over a perceived megacrisis and moaning about how the injustice du jour will finally kill the community once-and-for-all.

 

[GNG Iniquity]

It's almost like because these fixes were made public, people decided to use that information to exploit what's currently broken until the patch fixes them. It's cheap and aggravating.

Here's the thing. Once you breakdown a character like Kano, which I used to play (I'm still disgusted with myself) he has a fucking answer for everything literally. His up ball is so difficult to react to, his x-ray does a whopping 41% damage and essentially takes half your life, his knife spam recovery is stupid fast. If you're zoned against him you can neutral crouch his knives to avoid chip damage but guess what? He has an answer to get back in there with the fucking ball which you cannot hold block quickly enough to punish to avoid these tactics. So, once he's in there, he can hit you with the ball; you'll use a wakeup of which he'll block or his x-ray with super armor will rip through your wakeup and you're dead.

I mean...what the hell is this shit?! If we had projectile cancels like SF then that scenario can be avoided. Oh, but every other character in the game has a dumbass teleport attack, forgot about that...no I didn't because once he's spamming in the input for the knives it'll turn into another fucking up ball and punish you YET again right as the teleport reaches him.

It's just...beyond ridiculous. Kano's only difficult comp is Raiden and vice fucking versa.

 

[Sinultros]

The game is most definitely fun, but seeing OnlineTony constantly win WNF for the past month thanks to Kabal infinites do have me concerned. I'd be VERY disappointed if the winner of the next big tournies done that...and it COULD happen. I never thought that would still be an issue today after seeing it for the first time a month ago.

 

[LordxMugen]

The "crisis" is an invention of internet busybodies. The game could use some improvement, but the way people are talking about it, it's like it's unplayable or it suffers from totally insane exploits that completely dominate play.

As time goes by, fighting game forums become indistinguishable from Blizzard forums. Everyone is losing their mud over a perceived megacrisis and moaning about how the injustice du jour will finally kill the community once-and-for-all.

i hate to say it but your EXACTLY right. MK9 is NOT a terrible game, its NOT unplayable and at its core is a good fighter. does the Kabal infinite suck? YES!! A THOUSAND TIMES YES!!! and it sucks that the patch aint coming before CEO. if people really hate it so bad why dont yall fucking tell everybody that Kabal is BANNED UNTIL THIS IS RESOLVED? there, problem solved. anybody hurt by this you just tell them sorry but hes broken and quit bitching and moaning till this is over.

i think whats REALLY sad is that at the end of the day, when MK players finally get a decent first try at a good game and it is good with just a few hiccups but a promise to patching, its not good enough and theyd rather eat each other over how these hiccups have "destroyed the game" rather than just take measures (no matter how hard it is) to make sure it stays competitive. i would reiterate something ive said a thousand times to you guys before (as is my way) but i think thatd just fall on deaf ears.

 

[JVMaverick]

Here's an argument to consider about universal normals: in chess, both players have symmetrical tools at their disposal. Neither has an innate advantage over the other, and consequently the competitive gameplay revolves around whoever is better at strategizing, reading and outwitting their opponent. The same thing can be applied to MK9's handful of universal normals. If two players jumpkick each other, the winner is going to be whoever was intelligent enough to read their opponent first, rather than who's character may have an innate frame/priority advantage. Granted, learning the nuances of 100% unique characters and their matchups is both complex and satisfying to a competitive player (I'm a King of Fighters player so I can certainly appreciate it), but I don't feel having a few universal normals reduces the depth of gameplay to the point that MK9 cannot be competitive or be appreciated by competitive players. I also feel it's naive to believe that the potential of characters has already been fully explored when the game is only 2 months old. Finally, many characters do have unique normals - some are longer or shorter ranged, faster or slower executing, or better priority than others.

I do regret that the footsies game is little more than a poke/interrupt game right now and wish it could be expanded upon, but overall, I think with appropriate support (removal of infinites/resets/counter repeaters, bomb trap, and other balance fixes) MK9 will deserve to be called a competitive fighting game.

This sums up my feelings after reading trough all the posts in this thread.

 

[GNG Iniquity]

I think ultimately the problem is, we all came from tournament level games for the most part, which already stood on their own two feet. MK has one foot in the grave. Aris really summarized this up...I'm really questioning if a franchise known for a gimmick can actually put themselves in this category.

 

[Vulcan Hades]

I agree with JennyCage. SSF4 is for sure more complex, deep and characters all have unique normals and stuff. But that results in a game that takes you half a year to be merely comfortable with 1 character.

One thing I liked about UMK3, is that once you understood the mechanics and how to play chess, you could basically pick up any character and be good with them. All you needed to remember was the special moves and combos. The rest was all universal knowledge and footsies. So there's definitely a big + to having uniformity in some areas. UMK3's mechanics allowed me to play high level with the whole cast and didn't force me into "sticking with only one character". Plus that uniformity also meant a lot more balance and diversity in character usage.

So I think there's a good side to both approach and ideally you'd want to be somewhere in the middle: Have really unique characters with different normals and playstyles but at the same time have really balanced tools and universal footsies/options.

I don't think all characters should have the same moves (teleports/projectiles/command throws) however I do think all characters should have similar tools and options. (an overhead, a normal that gives untechable knockdown, a reliable anti-air, a juggle starter, a long range and a mid range attack, a low/high crush, a reliable wake up move and reversal etc. Also the ability to punish should be universal. But that's just my opinion. That way playing footsies/mixups would be something all characters could do. But special moves, super, mobility, power, stamina, health would define the strenght and playstyles of the different characters. That's what I'd like to see in future fighting games.

 

[SCK ERR0R MACR0]

I agree with points from both sides of the argument--MK is simple, but it works pretty well. Sure, there probably won't be any huge changes in combos/strategies that people use a year from now, but many characters in SF are playing exactly the same way they were when SSF4 was released. I'm not saying that MK has the same depth because that's obviously not true, but I don't think there are many game changing revelations happening in SF (again, I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but I'm questioning the frequency and impact).

On the other side of the coin, MK does have some very generic stuff going on (uppercuts, jump-ins, etc.), which I would like to see change to add additional depth to the gameplay. This MK was a step in the right direction, and I think with additions like many of the things pointed out in this post, it will get even better.

MK, in my opinion, is simple, but has enough depth to make it a decent fighter, and one that folks can play meaningfully in competition. However, in future iterations, they need to continue moving forward by removing generic moves and such, and incorporate unique moves per character, and possibly additional mechanics to increase the depth and make it more than a guessing game.

I play both MK and SF, and I'm happy that they are different, but at the same time, I wish MK had a bit more depth.

 

[LordxMugen]

I think ultimately the problem is, we all came from tournament level games for the most part, which already stood on their own two feet. MK has one foot in the grave. Aris really summarized this up...I'm really questioning if a franchise known for a gimmick can actually put themselves in this category.

apparently they can cause enough people play it and they dont complain about it. its just you guys who expect it to be absolutely amazing out of the gate when the reality is that theyve only just gotten started on making something decent.

 

[MKF30]

It was interesting but I do feel MK9 is a tournament, serious worthy game...there's far more broken games out there played at tourneys, events etc... a lot of fighters now days get updates, patches etc Honestly, what game is "perfect" out of the gate?

I think it should be standard for all.

 

[Robotic]

My take, we are all working for NRS with no pay:

Game was 100% ready for the casual masses (which makes most of the MK audience) and ready ENOUGH for the tourney community so they can pick it apart. Game was released in time for EVO. There was enough time for the scene to voice concerns while NRS looked through the one sided mirror and take notes. Everything the scene found that NRS agreed with will be addressed in the patch. The plan is to release the patch before EVO so it is as viable a fighter as it can possibly be to that point.* I could be very wrong, but from a business standpoint, it's not unreasonable to see this as a likelihood.

*Except for Quan Chi. Netherrealm has a hard on to destroy him.

 

[LordxMugen]

My take, we are all working for NRS with no pay

dems fightan gahms for ya. it doesnt help matters when theres no arcade to gauge matters before a release like SF4, KOF, VF, and Tekken. right now this what they have to work with and YES they did rush the game to meet EVO and it didnt do them any favors but if they hadnt it probably would have hurt them more in the Hype department. so its a case of "your damned if you do. damned if you dont.

 

[Hitbox_Tyrant]

Im a die hard mk fan. All we can do is trust in NR and support them

 

[HurlingDervish]

I've seen this happen with many console games:
1. Broken/unbalanced mechanics at launch
2. Promise for patch
3. Patch gets sent for certification/QA by MS/Sony
4. Takes several weeks to get approved
5. New issues arise before original patch can even be approved
6.a. They withhold current patch and add more, get approved again
6.b. Let patch be approved and released and submit/work on new one.
7. Repeat with no real progress for many months.

This always goes on for months longer than it should on any respectable PC game. Ignoring the debate of NRS' ability to release a tournament level game from the start, console patch approval has been KILLING all competitive or buggy games by dragging a simple 2-week process into months and creating new problems on the way. By the time the patches come out on some other games, people have already moved on to something else or have just become burnt out by the game in general. It takes a long time to code? That's fine! but having the QA tests take twice as long defeats the purpose of "quality assurance" in the most ironic way: Quality Assurance testing patches for weeks only assures the games will lack quality...

Hopefully MK doesn't fall into this trap as well.

 

[hardwire]

I agree with this 100%.

m2dave ~ I agree that it has 90% of what SF has but it's a very dumbed down 90%. And that's my point. MK9 is as generic as they come which is great for casual gamers but not for hardcore tournament players who are looking for something with a little bit of depth. I've stated this many times before, you can pretty much pick up any character in this game in less than 5 minutes and if you're an already competent player it won't be difficult to get you up and winning. However, try that with a character like C.Viper and see what happens.

I agree with Aris on the stream. NRS is just incapable of making a solid tournament worthy game.

i have to disagree

in football (american) fights break out all the time and people understand its because tempers run high


now this competitor should have kept his cool but he didnt and all it will be viewed as is 1 jerk talking smack to 1 jerk and a nerd fight broke out


nothing of value was lost

 

[Cr1ms0n]

I'd rather be playing this and wait for a patch instead of getting Yun and Yang'd on in AE.

 

[mPariah]

Jesus this thread is depressing lol.

 

[Vulcan Hades]

I gotta say I'm a lot more disapointed in the MK community than with NRS to be honest. So far I think NRS did an amazing job on balancing the game and supporting the community. It's unfortunate that the patch had to be delayed and that the netcode couldn't get fixed quickly enough, but it's kind of childish to always blame NRS for everything.

Reading some comments in this thread really fills me with shame and sadness. Makes me wonder how MK can even survive with so much pessimism and hate. SF community isn't like this, they stick together and support Capcom, their games and it scenes, maybe that's why they were able to get so far and build up a good international reputation.

I think some of you guys should start looking in the mirror instead of calling NRS incapable shitheads.

 

[PoliceBrutality]

any link to the stream video? and when does the talk start?? and if they dont patch the game soon ill make sure i use sindel infinite at ECT over and over O_O

Well if that's how you feel, then im also going to use stryker's infinite

 

[John Grizzly]

my 2 cents for the UMK3 thing... That game is awesome but as REO and Juggs pointed out it is generic and at higher levels it usually comes down to run jabs, knee starters and d+4 escapes (REO quote again.) With today's technology, they can do the MK of anyone's wet dreams but for some reason they don't. MK9 is an amazing game and I love it but as a casual player, fan boy and a one who wants to compete and get better, I would do some of the stuff differently...Still MK is what it is...take or leave it...I'll take it

One thing I will say is that high level MK9 is waaaaaaay more exciting to watch than UMK3. Again, this is just my opinion.

As far as getting the game patched, I'm happy NRS seems to be listening to the players and moving forward with balancing issues. They're not just nerfing characters, they're buffing others as well. That's something I don't recall much of a history of with ANY fighter.

I'm very happy with the new MK thus far. To those saying it's too generic, I'd have to argue that that's the way MK has always been for the most part. This game seems to have the most separation from one character to another. Hell, there's even differences between Cyrax and Human Cyrax.

With DLC characters and gameplay patches, I think the game will have more life than people think. I just hope NRS doesn't give up on it soon just to make MK10.