The Power Nth -- Hawkgirl General Discussion Thread

[learis1]

Well, then think it's necessary. Go to practice mode and test the shit out yourself. Then you can see to believe. Are you too lazy? I've listed evidence, but you are countering me, not the evidence. People have come in and seconded evidence I have said. You are entitled to your opinion and I don't have to show you a video to know the things I listed are facts. Go to practice mode test out the evidence and see. I did it with you all's rebuttal. Some other people are bringing up other holes to your philosophies, but you're so right that they have to be wrong. That's pretty arrogant bro. This should be an easy rebuttal is you're so right. People are writing other holes in you and boo's arguments but what have you done to write back. I know, zero.

If you find me on the internet then you found me. I go by a different name but there is footage of me playing several fighting games and pictures of me winning tournaments in the fighting games listed above. As I said good luck finding it. If I have to prove myself, then I got a question for you... who in the blue hell are you? Do you know me? Do you pay my rent? If so I'll give your opinions more thought. Until then, use evidence to disprove mine as I have for you.

BTW WE3 sometimes clearly misses people even if d1 connects and they are ducking. And easy to react to and punish that's 41% for Aqua, 47% for supes. Do I have to list everyone to appease you?

Lol, now who's the one taking things too personally. Seriously, if you're a good hawkgirl then just post your vids so we can at least learn from them and see hawkgirl's weaknesses versus the top characters. Your overly defensive nature isn't helping out anything. I agree she has a major weakness in that she needs to be practically point blank to get anything scary started, but I'd still like to see some footage of high level hawkgirl since barely anyone plays her. And honestly when you say stuff like "uuuhh, my friend says I have a better hawk girl", you're kind of opening up a can of worms and asking for some real video proof, not a typed essay.

 

[TAS_DASH]

Lol, now who's the one taking things too personally. Seriously, if you're a good hawkgirl then just post your vids so we can at least learn from them and see hawkgirl's weaknesses versus the top characters. Your overly defensive nature isn't helping out anything. I agree she has a major weakness in that she needs to be practically point blank to get anything scary started, but I'd still like to see some footage of high level hawkgirl since barely anyone plays her.

Dude, the people in this thread don't allow you to present anything b/c as soon as I said things they said that's not true, but then someone else said not only is it true but exhibit b makes it even more true. They didn't quote that or go argue that evidence down. One poster wrote he agreed with 85% of what I wrote and that means nothing to these guys bc they said everyone agreed with them after that fact. I'm not posting vids, but I am showing people I play with how to blow her up. One of her major neutral game options that people are relying on in all of the vids that I see can get blown up, by the 21 out of 26 members of the cast and safely escaped by a couple of the others. I'm telling the people who trust my knowledge this and they'll be ready for any HG's when they travel. Just bc something isn't getting blown up yet doesn't mean it will never get discovered. It's all about the game's evolution. It will eventually happen.

Although, you aren't coming off in the same fashion, I'm just going to level up my people in that match up. I'm sorry, but thank the heads of the thread. They then misquoted me and things to try to make me look incompetent and called me a jackass, saying unless I present vids nothing is valid, which is false. That's what you're reading a reply to. This room is like an oligarchy and I for one will just stick to threads where it's a round table. I'm not taking anything personal and don't get emotional when typing threads, it's online, but read the thread leading up to that. What I'm saying is true... I don't have to post anything whether he "feels" it's necessary or not. To get respect, you have to give it. They just came in and said no instantly, as if my opinion doesn't matter, which is downplaying my thoughts, thus a lack of respect.

We have yet to see a HG place top 8 in any legit tourney (project inj, ect, ufgt, toryuken) yet and she's not as deep as say a Luthor, Bane, Cyborg, Harley, or Joker. I think that's a problem for an A+ or now A character. They even said that Bane has no better match up than HG which is absurd and showing you that they are arguing with the heart not the brain. I will not share info with people who are acting like that. I still use her, but I still feel she needs buffs to make her a solid character who can last in this game competitively long term. I think people are losing to her b/c they are unfamiliar with the match up. Once you start educating them on the match up... it becomes more in their favor. We all can learn and are never above learning, but sometimes I think people forget that.

Look at he huge strides other lower characters are making. HG is not making strides on that level. The new joker tech is coming fast. The Bane tech is steadily rising as a local Bane user just showed me something that has yet to be explored in these threads. The flash vortex is crazy, which we knew was corner, but now mid screen! That's a huge problem We know some anti wake up harley tech and trait tech that's not being explored. DS or "Kano 2.0" is still very viable. Batgirl is already a problem and she's a week old. Hawkgirl isn't advancing at the same rate, not because the people in here are not trying, it's just her options are more limited due to her 6f T Rex range and slow starting mix up strings that hinder her mix up ability. They don't allow you to fully take advantage of how good her d1 is. That's my opinion.

 

[M2Dave]

Lol, now who's the one taking things too personally. Seriously, if you're a good hawkgirl then just post your vids so we can at least learn from them and see hawkgirl's weaknesses versus the top characters. Your overly defensive nature isn't helping out anything. I agree she has a major weakness in that she needs to be practically point blank to get anything scary started, but I'd still like to see some footage of high level hawkgirl since barely anyone plays her. And honestly when you say stuff like "uuuhh, my friend says I have a better hawk girl", you're kind of opening up a can of worms and asking for some real video proof, not a typed essay.

I used Hawkgirl casually at UFGT versus high level players like GGA 16 Bit, Pig Of The Hut, and Tom Brady. If I had used Hawkgirl in the actual tournament, I probably would have placed higher thanks to the unfamiliarity of the character. But Hawkgirl is not solid.
In fact, she is one of the most one dimensional characters in the game. The following are her biggest issues.

1. In a game of 50/50 mix ups, she has no mix ups whatsoever. You have to be in your opponent's face to set up b+2,3 and b+2,2. b+2 may not even hit some crouching characters. The hitbox is inconsistent and awful.

2. She cannot cause any chip damage full screen away. The lack of chip damage is a tremendous problem versus characters like Batman and Black Adam. These two characters already have superior normal attacks, footsies, and damage output. Why do they have to out zone and out turtle Hawkgirl too? Good luck making a comeback after taking too much damage. I understand why a full screen aerial d,b+1 may be too powerful, but she ought to have an aerial forward and back dash so she can close the gap. She is supposed to be almighty in the air. Why does Killer Frost have an aerial dash and not Hawkgirl? It makes no sense.

3. The transition from the air to the ground is too unsafe. Some characters can predict and punish this transition. Stomp should be safe on block and have less recovery frames on whiff so this transition can occur safely. Black Adam has a fairly safe dive kick that almost reaches the entire screen, yet Hawkgirl cannot have a safe stomp that has ten times less range? Come on.

Also, speaking of Black Adam, do not believe the hype that she does well against him. Black Adam has some of the most damaging AA punishments. If you spam mace charges or stay in the air a lot, j.2 hits you every time for at least 35% of damage. She can put up a fight versus Killer Frost and Superman, though.

 

[Espio]

It works when I take Espio's advice and do the entire string 32 B1 but I guess I can see it being not as powerful if its a character who's armored attack is stronger but Espio maybe should clarify tho im just saying that I go for the full string for the safeness

Something else of note from what I understand is wake ups all have different type of invincibility, hitboxes etc so using it as an anti-wake up set up varies depending on who you're fighting, how many frames of invulnerabilty, speed of the wake up, timing etc.

I've been using it a lot lately, I never use it for anti-wake up unless I do the entire string, if they scout it and block you're safe with pushback and distance to set up your next move and if it's a vulnerable wake up it gets stuffed.


Some people might just be using 3 alone, which is a different matter entirely so I cannot comment on that. I also didn't get the tag alert for this .

 

[learis1]

I used Hawkgirl casually at UFGT versus high level players like GGA 16 Bit, Pig Of The Hut, and Tom Brady. If I had used Hawkgirl in the actual tournament, I probably would have placed higher thanks to the unfamiliarity of the character. But Hawkgirl is not solid.
In fact, she is one of the most one dimensional characters in the game. The following are her biggest issues.

1. In a game of 50/50 mix ups, she has no mix ups whatsoever. You have to be in your opponent's face to set up b+2,3 and b+2,2. b+2 may not even hit some crouching characters. The hitbox is inconsistent and awful.

2. She cannot cause any chip damage full screen away. The lack of chip damage is a tremendous problem versus characters like Batman and Black Adam. These two characters already have superior normal attacks, footsies, and damage output. Why do they have to out zone and out turtle Hawkgirl too? Good luck making a comeback after taking too much damage. I understand why a full screen aerial d,b+1 may be too powerful, but she ought to have an aerial forward and back dash so she can close the gap. She is supposed to be almighty in the air. Why does Killer Frost have an aerial dash and not Hawkgirl? It makes no sense.

3. The transition from the air to the ground is too unsafe. Some characters can predict and punish this transition. Stomp should be safe on block and have less recovery frames on whiff so this transition can occur safely. Black Adam has a fairly safe dive kick that almost reaches the entire screen, yet Hawkgirl cannot have a safe stomp that has ten times less range? Come on.

Also, speaking of Black Adam, do not believe the hype that she does well against him. Black Adam has some of the most damaging AA punishments. If you spam mace charges or stay in the air a lot, j.2 hits you every time for at least 35% of damage. She can put up a fight versus Killer Frost and Superman, though.

I agree with all of this. She needs to be point blank for her 50/50, it starts from a relatively slow b2 which I've seen whiff on crouchers as well. Her transition from air to ground is unsafe and her zoning can be easily dashed through meaning that she has to waste a meter to dive to stay safe. Her dmg output aint that great either unless you're in the corner or doing a pure punish. A lot of her pressure moves have pushback preventing her from staying up close. That's ultimately her biggest challenge, finding a way to safely get in and get an attack off at point blank range.

She's still the funnest character for me to play though and it really is only minor tweaks that I think would make her be up there with the best, but I suppose that could be said for every character not at the top. I only casually play online and I like how she can counter derpy stuff like Killer Frost slide and Superman punches or air lasers.

 

[HushoftheWind]

I used Hawkgirl casually at UFGT versus high level players like GGA 16 Bit, Pig Of The Hut, and Tom Brady. If I had used Hawkgirl in the actual tournament, I probably would have placed higher thanks to the unfamiliarity of the character. But Hawkgirl is not solid.
In fact, she is one of the most one dimensional characters in the game. The following are her biggest issues.

1. In a game of 50/50 mix ups, she has no mix ups whatsoever. You have to be in your opponent's face to set up b+2,3 and b+2,2. b+2 may not even hit some crouching characters. The hitbox is inconsistent and awful.

2. She cannot cause any chip damage full screen away. The lack of chip damage is a tremendous problem versus characters like Batman and Black Adam. These two characters already have superior normal attacks, footsies, and damage output. Why do they have to out zone and out turtle Hawkgirl too? Good luck making a comeback after taking too much damage. I understand why a full screen aerial d,b+1 may be too powerful, but she ought to have an aerial forward and back dash so she can close the gap. She is supposed to be almighty in the air. Why does Killer Frost have an aerial dash and not Hawkgirl? It makes no sense.

3. The transition from the air to the ground is too unsafe. Some characters can predict and punish this transition. Stomp should be safe on block and have less recovery frames on whiff so this transition can occur safely. Black Adam has a fairly safe dive kick that almost reaches the entire screen, yet Hawkgirl cannot have a safe stomp that has ten times less range? Come on.

Also, speaking of Black Adam, do not believe the hype that she does well against him. Black Adam has some of the most damaging AA punishments. If you spam mace charges or stay in the air a lot, j.2 hits you every time for at least 35% of damage. She can put up a fight versus Killer Frost and Superman, though.

so in short, you think she needs buffs to be a better/viable character?

 

[Tiger Wong]

No. In short, he thinks she's not a worthwhile character.

Whatever. Last I checked, DS had been "nerfed to the point where he can't possibly compete".

Matches and tourneys aren't won with theories last I checked.

 

[Boodendorf]

m2dave just as you said you're talking about her from a casual point of you, you only played her casually right?

If you really want to use a high low mixup with hawkgirl (tbh she doesn't need a good one) then go for either b22/b2we2 or sweep/iadk midscreen (more range + knockdown but unsafe sweep). Left/right > high/low.
No she doesn't need more range on her b22. Its purpose isn't to give her an easy 50/50 anywhere on screen outside of corner.
No she doesn't need Black Adam's divekick nor does she need an unpunishable divekick no matter the heigth, that's one of her very few punishable moves, leave it as it is.
Chip damage? No boosts needed, she can do an okay amount of chip with mb mace toss, mc and we3.

 

[M2Dave]

No. In short, he thinks she's not a worthwhile character.

Whatever. Last I checked, DS had been "nerfed to the point where he can't possibly compete".

Matches and tourneys aren't won with theories last I checked.

Deathstroke is barely tournament viable. Keep in mind that an NRS employee (and not a mere tester) placed 4th at UFGT. Slips performed well because he is a great player who knew about the changes a month ago. He had plenty of time to prepare for the tournament. Others had two days.

m2dave just as you said you're talking about her from a casual point of you, you only played her casually right?

If you really want to use a high low mixup with hawkgirl (tbh she doesn't need a good one) then go for either b22/b2we2 or sweep/iadk midscreen (more range + knockdown but unsafe sweep). Left/right > high/low.
No she doesn't need more range on her b22. Its purpose isn't to give her an easy 50/50 anywhere on screen outside of corner.
No she doesn't need Black Adam's divekick nor does she need an unpunishable divekick no matter the heigth, that's one of her very few punishable moves, leave it as it is.
Chip damage? No boosts needed, she can do an okay amount of chip with mb mace toss, mc and we3.

I tested Hawkgirl casually against 16 Bit's Killer Frost, Pig's Sinestro, and Tom's Aquaman. She would be my main character if she were only a little bit better.

I genuinely have no arguments against "Hawkgirl does not need more tools". She does not if you prefer that she remain a mid tier character. The S tier characters are very strong in this game and I genuinely believe that she only needs a couple of buffs to be really good.

 

[Tiger Wong]

Dude, you want HG to have an air dash. She'd be broken if that happened.

I like how DS is only viable in the hands of a "great player". So if HG was used by a great player..... What? She would still be mediocre?

Like I said before, its whatever. You think she's not good. Good. You said your peace. You can go now.

Meanwhile I'll be trying to figure out how Doomsday is so tourney viable when he has one meterless low and less mix ups than HG. how does he open people up without grabbing? I mean...... Theory-wise you should never get hit by him right?

He should be mid-tier.

 

[M2Dave]

Dude, you want HG to have an air dash. She'd be broken if that happened.

I like how DS is only viable in the hands of a "great player". So if HG was used by a great player..... What? She would still be mediocre?

Like I said before, its whatever. You think she's not good. Good. You said your peace. You can go now.

Meanwhile I'll be trying to figure out how Doomsday is so tourney viable when he has one meterless low and less mix ups than HG. how does he open people up without grabbing? I mean...... Theory-wise you should never get hit by him right?

He should be mid-tier.

Doomsday is mid tier precisely because of the reason you mentioned above. REO predicted the first week of the game's release that this character would struggle opening up people once they learn how to block the Earth Shake.

See, I want to use a character who will be very good long term, not someone who depends on shenanigans and gimmicks. The good players will eventually expose your gameplay if it not fundamentally solid. I am very concerned that Hawkgirl's gameplay is gimmicky instead of solid. As TAS_DASH stated, the vast majority of players are losing because they do not know how to fight Hawkgirl. They have not resolved how to punish flight and mace charges. I hear foolish statements like "Hawgirl counters Black Adam", yet Black Adam punishes flight and mace charge with 40% combos. If you do a mace charge and Black Adam jumps back with 2, he can 1,1 Trait b+2,3 u+1+3. Good luck trying to get the life lead back because Hawkgirl cannot force 50/50 mix ups mid screen and chip damage full screen away.

Slips is a great player, but he has also played the patched version of the game for a month. He is an NRS employee who has had plenty of time to adapt to the changes unlike 99% of all tournament players. Deathstroke is now a solid mid tier character, but I guarantee you that NRS will release a DLC whose zoning game will rival Deathstroke's pre-patch, and nobody will give a damn about Deathstroke. Just like nobody will give a damn about Hawkgirl unless she gets some minor buffs.

 

[Boodendorf]

"Hawgirl counters Black Adam", yet Black Adam punishes flight and mace charge with 40% combos. If you do a mace charge and Black Adam jumps back with 2, he can 1,1 Trait b+2,3 u+1+3. Good luck trying to get the life lead back because Hawkgirl cannot force 50/50 mix ups mid screen and chip damage full screen screen.

I never thought HG countered BA, I always thought BA had the advantage in this matchup.
Oh and any character can punish a whiffed mace charge with backjump 2 for 35+%. But it also means he has to guess whether you'll mace charge or not. If he guesses wrong he'll do backjump 2 into nothing, you'll have some breathing room, unless he mb divekick (can be avoided by jumping though).
The thing with HG is that if you give her a buff there's a high chance it'll make her overly broken, so until we study her more and we know exactly what she needs (and if she even needs buffs). It's only been a bit more than amonth since the game came out, we should take our time and learn the character a lot more before asking for buffs or nerfs.
And don't say that we won't find anything, because we've been finding things like the wing evade tech.

 

[TAS_DASH]

Doomsday is mid tier precisely because of the reason you mentioned above. REO predicted the first week of the game's release that this character would struggle opening up people once they learn how to block the Earth Shake.

See, I want to use a character who will be very good long term, not someone who depends on shenanigans and gimmicks. The good players will eventually expose your gameplay if it not fundamentally solid. I am very concerned that Hawkgirl's gameplay is gimmicky instead of solid. As TAS_DASH stated, the vast majority of players are losing because they do not know how to fight Hawkgirl. They have not resolved how to punish flight and mace charges. I hear foolish statements like "Hawgirl counters Black Adam", yet Black Adam punishes flight and mace charge with 40% combos. If you do a mace charge and Black Adam jumps back with 2, he can 1,1 Trait b+2,3 u+1+3. Good luck trying to get the life lead back because Hawkgirl cannot force 50/50 mix ups mid screen and chip damage full screen away.

Slips is a great player, but he has also played the patched version of the game for a month. He is an NRS employee who has had plenty of time to adapt to the changes unlike 99% of all tournament players. Deathstroke is now a solid mid tier character, but I guarantee you that NRS will release a DLC whose zoning game will rival Deathstroke's pre-patch, and nobody will give a damn about Deathstroke. Just like nobody will give a damn about Hawkgirl unless she gets some minor buffs.

Thank you m2DAve for understanding, but they won't listen even to someone like you who is very knowledgeable in general of this stuff. I have found so many holes that have no answer and i can literally tell any one how to beat her in any match-up including the flash. Her air zoning is not good at all unless someone is a fool to jump at her from full screen. If you play her at full screen while she's in the air she's worthless. You can back dash faster than she can fly. If she tries to corner you every character has an option to either escape or anti air her. Once you touch her and hurt her she has to come to you and if you are patient she can't do anything in flight. Block low and react to jump or WE or slow f3. That's it. d1 is negative on block. I tried to tell them it could only get her so far and everything else is too slow. For christ sakes Bane beats her easy if you stick to this. She can't wake up against any level of bane's venom, which then leads to doom for Hawkgirl in that match up. She's completely free to Bane's anti wake up game just like half of the cast. Venom uppercut her out of the air. He can level 3 her super if she tries to punish RC.

She has no WE block strings outside of slow b2 that are relatively safe.

B2 WE 2 at most distances of b2, whiffs and can be punished
B2 WE 3 can be ducked and punished
B2, delayed WE 3 can be punished or escaped by some as well including bane.

For WE3 to be positive on block it has to be delayed, so just armor b3 it for full combo. It it is done early just duck. These can be done on reaction.

The Black Adam positive matchup is a joke at best. Same philosophy... be patient stay back and back dash. If she thinks she cornered you jump mace throw and punish. If she MC dash and run. If she's at that good angle for Down Mace throw, neutral jump and MB dive kick for full combo. Her air mace throw is so slow you can react. When she falls slowly from flight cloud and then lightning full screen for 12%. BA can duck all wing evade options unless completely touching bc of his weird hurtbox even delayed WE3 unless done near the end, which is now a liability. Of course when he touches you he punishes hard, which is BA's specialty, then run and repeat. She doesn't want to be face to face with BA, who does?. You can easily win by timing her out. It may be "lame," but if a tourney is on the line, I do what it takes to win.

Aquaman can do the same, yet use water shield to stay safe from MT and then jump over 2 and half her life is gone.

Supes, Luthor, DS, Sinestro, GL, Raven, WW, Batgirl, Cyborg, Arrow, Doomsday, Supes, Batman, and Catwoman can all blow her up easily if they know the match up. You're not going to make it far in a tourney outright losing to these people.

I will continue to show people how to beat her relatively easy with any character. The funny thing is, I have a lot more devastating anti HG tech than this. As I said, it will be too late before it is realized. Then the HG buff requests will start.

Thanks again m2dave for hearing me out and being ok with written text.

 

[Boodendorf]

TAS_DASH Then could you create a "The buffs Hawkgirl needs" thread? With explanations and all that stuff. Debates about buffs/nerfs should be held there rather than the general thread.

 

[Boodendorf]

Oh and while we're at it please do an "How to beat Hawkgirl thread.", that would be much appreciated by everybody here.
TAS_DASH

 

[Espio]

I'm content with playing a mid tier character, I'm not a proponent of buffing a character unless they NEED buffs and simply being mid tier is not grounds for a buff.

I agree she has weaknesses and opening people up at times can be tricky somewhat.



It's still early and she may not need anything at all. I'm not saying anyone's right or wrong, but being mid tier is not a bad thing, it means she's well balanced that's the aim to have characters who don't destroy everyone or get destroyed by everyone, but hold their own just fine against the roster.


I never thought Black Adam lost to Hawkgirl, many Black Adam players think he loses though, which I've discussed before with some of them.


Lastly, everyone can punish whiffed mace charge for full combo or meter burn back 3, it's still neutral on block and if people are blowing up your mace charge, it means you're getting baited and outplayed with superior reads.

 

[Tiger Wong]

*yawn*

So basically what I'm hearing is, if you have to think through a matchup, you're not good correct?

Yes BA can 35% her if he lands a jump 2 while she's flying. But that's pretty much the only thing he can do while she's flying. So if I alternate horizontal MTs and diagonal MTs and occasionally do an MC to keep him guessing (and to hit him) then he's not gonna be able to do much to hit her correct? Because that's pretty much how I play vs BA.

His jump is only 2nd to HG in how slow and high it is. You think HGs jump is easy to read? Guess what? So is BAs. Everybody knows BA can't really handle jumpers except with meeting you in the air with J2 or the cage.

If I'm HG and I know these things and I keep you off balance with Air Mts, MCs, and neutral jumps, then what exactly can BA do to hit me? This is why I don't fear the BA matchup. I just have to outthink his user. That's why I don't fear superman or catwoman or DS or even WW. Those characters aren't super duper hard counters to the point where I can't create a situation or a counter situation to keep my HG alive.

You guys wanna play characters that have an easy answer to everything then by all means...... Get your roll on and get outta here. You already said your peace and don't seem to give a crap about any counterpoints to her sucking so...... What do you want? A cookie for wanting her to be OP and an easy way through a matchup?

 

[4x4lo8o]

I'm content with playing a mid tier character, I'm not a proponent of buffing a character unless they NEED buffs and simply being mid tier is not grounds for a buff.

In general I kind of agree with you, I don't think 'x isn't S tier, needs buffs' is the mentality to have, but mid tier characters can need buffs. In particular, if you have a match ups that are hard 3-7's or worse while most of your other match ups are near even then a buff to make those really hard match ups manageable is pretty reasonable. One or two near unwinnable match ups can really make or break a character and as a general rule I don't think you should really have match ups worse than 3-7.
It also makes sense to buff mid tier characters if the gap between mid tier and top tier is really large. If the top tier is so good that the mid tier can't compete mid tier ought to be looking for buffs or nerfs or something.
I don't know if either of those are the case for Hawkgirl and this game, but on it's own the idea that a character is mid tier isn't quite enough to suggest she doesn't need buffs.

I think there's also some uncertainty about whether she'll stay mid tier. It's pretty hard to tell where a lot of characters are going to end up on the tier list as the game develops, and Hawkgirl is one who seems to have a lot of potential to swing in either direction. I know a lot of the Hawkgirl mains posting here think she's going to move up, but personally I'm sort of worried that I'll put a lot of time into her and in the end I'll be playing Baraka - a character who has almost all the tools she needs and can really mess up someone who underestimates her or doesn't know the match up but in the end just isn't quite tournament viable.


The other thing is that we're on a competitive gaming site. Everyone here wants to be as good as they can, and having a character who's mid tier can hold you back from that. So it makes sense to see players of a balance mid tier character requesting buffs, even if from a greater balance perspective the character is fine.

So basically what I'm hearing is, if you have to think through a matchup, you're not good correct?

I'm pretty sure that that isn't what he's saying and that it's a pretty disingenuous interpretation
I'm a little surprised at reaction M2Dave is getting here. M2Dave is a guy known for his hyperbole and joke threads, and he's coming in here and giving a pretty reasonable and down to earth opinion about the character. We also know Dave's a good player and can identify a good character - top 8 at evo doesn't happen by accident. I'm not saying anyone has to agree with him or take his points to heart, but acting offended because he thinks Hawkgirl is a lower tier or less viable than you do doesn't seem like the right response.
Everything he's saying is from the perspective of someone who's travelling to tournaments and wants to able to win those tournaments with the characters he plays. He hasn't once said, or even really implied, that she sucks. He just wants a character that doesn't have a lot of uphill battles when competing in tournament

 

[TAS_DASH]

No, the point is you don't have to think much playing her. Stay away. how do you get hit by horizontal MT if you follow my strategy? HG can not stop a turtle. That's our point. Her down mace throw is too slow. Once she starts the down throw react and jump over if she's trying to corner you and neutral AA MB dive kick for full combo and force her to come to you. When you have the health lead, like m2dave said, due to her lack of her mixups can not open you up. Follow this "lame" strategy and back dash away to the next corner and do the same. My point is, when you as HG struggle against those characters as I've listed above... you can't win a tourney. So I think it's hard to place her even mid b/c of this.

Obviously the GGA camp (who are playing out of their minds) agrees if they think she is pretty free. KH thinks she's free. Defeating a character is about neutralizing their best tools. HG's can be neutralized w/o thought. It's simple in flight don't jump unless jumping over low MC throw. She can't hang with the majority of the cast on the ground. Trust me there are more ways to easily open her up other than those listed that will be exposed in the game's long term. I think her only saving grace might be the WE mid combos that you guys are working on. But those won't help her VS Supes, BA, WW, Raven, Cyborg (good cyborg's don't use that string because of how easy it can be interrupted by everyone), DS, Sinestro, Lantern, Catwoman, or Doomsday. Mid tier means you should not get blown up by this many characters, especially this many tournament worthy characters.

You all keep insisting we want he high or broken, but you are only half right. We don't want her high, just competitive. She does need something dirty though and slightly broken. Every character has this except HG.

Batman-Bats/ string launchers that start from mids, highs, and lows/ 50/50's
Supes-F2,3 breath / trait/ delayed MB eye lasers/ anti wake up/ low launcher (50/50's)
BA- Dive Kick/ b2,3 positive/ MB low lightning / Grab Range/ Super fast Dash/ Trait
WW- Air superiority (not HG)/ Anti Wake up/ positive d1 in Sword and Shield/ virtually no chip in SnS/ d1 into near 40%, b2/ 50/50 setups in SnS
Aqua- Trait/ Range / d1 to 40%/ hit or block confirm b1,2/ chip on trident rush/ 50/50's
Doomsday- Gimmicky ES and SN/ Trait/ MB shoulder/ 3,3/ Grab Range
Sinestro- Trait (Cowboy and others finally showed the string that can get your full trait against a lot of cast including HG)/ Full screen combos
GA- so much dirt that even Chris G isn't using all of it
Joker-set ups galore/ sweep range/ parry/ grab range/ crazy corner setups unescapable for some characters
Bane- armor on all but 1 special/ best anti wake up tools/ a positive 27 j1 on block/ forward dash speed/ 50/50's
HQ-trait setups/ anti wake up/ mix ups into 40%+ combos/ 50/50's/ end combos with MB play doctor/ d1 to 40% plus
DS- Fast Bullets every direction/ MB Guns/ certain guaranteed trait set ups on specific characters including HG/ Sworld flip one of the best AA/ 50/50's
Ares- Full combo resets that still work (AlucarD)/ low 6f d1 full combo/ zoning/ anti zoning/ low launcher (50/50's)
lantern- full combo 50/50 resets/ lift/ full 3/4 screen combos/ full screen machine gun/ trait cancel
NW- staff d1/ pound is plus/ New FG wake up set up/ Air Wing Dings/ hit or block confirm d1,2 escrima/ staff instant overheads that lead to full combo
Flash- Frame traps/ full combo Vortex/ dodge/ 50/50's
Batgirl- Bolo loop/ chip in electric knuckles/ anti zoning/ 50/50's
KF- Super damaging resets/ freeze parry/ 50/50's
Lobo- Block confirm grab setups/ chain mix ups/ 11 frame 3 with enormous hitbox/ low cancelled launcher (50/50)s
Grundy- armored trait grab/ 5f anti air grab/ most special moves armored/ 50/50's/ walking corpse (can cancel)
Luthor- probe/ trait/ setups/ j3/ 6f corp charge (best punish in game)
Catwoman- MB cat scratch/ j2/ startup and mid combo 50/50's/ b3/ dodge
Shazam- guranteed grab set ups/ reset/ trait damage/ j2
Raven- full screen combos/ super fast trait cool down/ full screen punish/ air teleport
Cyborg- can make every string safe/ zoning/ setups/ stupid insane corner combos and setups/ gains meter super fast/ frame traps

HG- has great d1 and sweep range, that can't fully be taken advantage of. WE opponent's in the middle of their combo on few characters and not enough strings to make it a real threat. It's harder to neutralize their dirt with the majority of the cast compared to HG's. Her MB mace throw can be avoided ( slow start up) or frame advantage negated by most characters by stand blocking it. The push back is so far that her d1 can't take advantage. Duck WE. WE delay's can be punished

 

[M2Dave]

TAS_DASH, your posts are consistent with what I have seen and experienced in casual and tournament matches. You should make a buff thread and explain the character's weaknesses.

Speaking of weaknesses, I think Hawkgirl's biggest ones are lack of mid screen 50/50 mix ups and full screen chip damage. A couple of buffs in either aspect (depending how NRS wants the character to play) would make her a solid high mid tier character.

 

[TrulyAmiracle]

A buff for ground mace toss startup and/or making it mid instead of high would solve quite a bit of issues that i have with Hawkgirl personally.
In some matchups where you cant even try using the air as an option (Sinestro, Batgirl, Lex, WW etc) and having to stay grounded for most of the match, a grounded fullscreen option that isnt the molasses slow ground mace toss would be nice.

 

[TAS_DASH]

TAS_DASH, your posts are consistent with what I have seen and experienced in casual and tournament matches. You should make a buff thread and explain the character's weaknesses.

Speaking of weaknesses, I think Hawkgirl's biggest ones are lack of mid screen 50/50 mix ups and full screen chip damage. A couple of buffs in either aspect (depending how NRS wants the character to play) would make her a solid high mid tier character.

I 100% agree m2dave with what she needs. I'll think about the thread. Honestly this site's negativity is really starting to make me want to stop posting. Every thread you read has negativity and it's hard to learn and grow with all of it. It's not very open minded here.

To create the 50/50 mix ups you can do these things I've thought of.
1. Make it where b2 doesn't push back so make b2,2 connect at full b2 range (or at least not nearly as much). This along with making WE2 go a slightly further (not necessarily full b2 range, but further) give her 1 true 50/50. The start up on b2 is slow anyway. with d1 being plus 16 on hit you could then set it up with that.
2. Make b2 a true mid for on every character at max distance so it can't be ducked.
3. Make f3 go slightly more forward. It's slow anyways
4. Make WE2 or dive kick two hits to deal with armor. She's using both of her feet anyways. WE3 would be too dirty if it counted as 2 hits. WE2 can be blown up anyway due to it's slower start up so if would have to be timed to punish armor.

Other suggestions.
1. Make b3 1-3 frames faster for easier combo damage. It's already hard enough to open people up with 1,2,3. It shouldn't be this hard to punish them. I can do it consistently, but a lot of people can't
2. Make ground mace throw mid. It has horrible start up. She's at horrible disadvantage on block due to its horrendous recovery. It can be be punished if jumped over. This will give chip as well.
3. Give her some skins (see folks... I do have a sense of humor)

She would still be at negative in those match ups listed previously, but at least she'd have a fighting chance.
Thanks again for the support m2dave.

 

[Mestizo3]

Doomsday is mid tier precisely because of the reason you mentioned above. REO predicted the first week of the game's release that this character would struggle opening up people once they learn how to block the Earth Shake.

See, I want to use a character who will be very good long term, not someone who depends on shenanigans and gimmicks. The good players will eventually expose your gameplay if it not fundamentally solid. I am very concerned that Hawkgirl's gameplay is gimmicky instead of solid. As TAS_DASH stated, the vast majority of players are losing because they do not know how to fight Hawkgirl. They have not resolved how to punish flight and mace charges. I hear foolish statements like "Hawgirl counters Black Adam", yet Black Adam punishes flight and mace charge with 40% combos. If you do a mace charge and Black Adam jumps back with 2, he can 1,1 Trait b+2,3 u+1+3. Good luck trying to get the life lead back because Hawkgirl cannot force 50/50 mix ups mid screen and chip damage full screen away.

Slips is a great player, but he has also played the patched version of the game for a month. He is an NRS employee who has had plenty of time to adapt to the changes unlike 99% of all tournament players. Deathstroke is now a solid mid tier character, but I guarantee you that NRS will release a DLC whose zoning game will rival Deathstroke's pre-patch, and nobody will give a damn about Deathstroke. Just like nobody will give a damn about Hawkgirl unless she gets some minor buffs.

"See, I want to use a character who will be very good long term, not someone who depends on shenanigans and gimmicks."

Anyone else find this hilarious, coming from m2dave and his permaboner for pre-patch deathstroke?

Also Aris, a tekken player, won WNF with a post patch deathstroke 1 day after the patch, beating a Tyrant a very good Superman player. But that won't stop m2lame from giving more excuses for his inability to do well with a character while others are having success lol.

 

[4x4lo8o]

I 100% agree m2dave with what she needs. I'll think about the thread. Honestly this site's negativity is really starting to make me want to stop posting. Every thread you read has negativity and it's hard to learn and grow with all of it. It's not very open minded here.

I think the Hawkgirl community means really well - they definitely try to have each others backs - but they just firmly believe they've got a solid character here and for whatever reason you managed to get them a bit defensive. I understand your frustration, I think anybody who's been contributing here for awhile would say they've posted stuff that they thought got a reception it didn't deserve, but if the stuff you're posting is thought out and meant to contribute something positive there'll be people here who will appreciate it.
Make the thread, I think it'll go better than you think and it might start some good discussion.

"See, I want to use a character who will be very good long term, not someone who depends on shenanigans and gimmicks."

Anyone else find this hilarious, coming from m2dave and his permaboner for pre-patch deathstroke?

Also Aris, a tekken player, won WNF with a post patch deathstroke 1 day after the patch, beating a Tyrant a very good Superman player. But that won't stop m2lame from giving more excuses for his inability to do well with a character while others are having success lol.

Hey, let's keep that out of here. None of that has to do with Harkgirl or will lead to any productive discussion here. What Dave's said about DS doesn't invalidate his points about Hawkgirl(he explained them more indepth than just what you quoted) and we don't need drama and arguing about the effects of DS nerfs here. Tbh I think M2Dave was mostly trolling about that anyway, but even if I'm wrong let's just not get into that.

 

[Mestizo3]

^^ Yea I support hawkgirl players that character sucks right now