General/Other I don't understand shazam at all!

[Zyphox]

http://testyourmight.com/threads/how-to-fight-like-a-child-–-phase-3’s-shazam-primer.30100/#post-783083

yeah i read it, but he doesnt seem to know that 22 on crouch block or standing will guarantee grab, hes saying its a 50/50, no its not 22 will always you grab on both stances and since you can neutral duck without blocking in this game, my trap guaranteed if you make the right read, as well as a trap some one else found off a low grab then on their wake up herculean might is guaranteed only beat by fast wakeups, so i just want to point all this out because people didnt understand how good shazam was and all this tech shows he's a great character

 

[PPJ]

shazam is good

 

[Hellbringer]

Anyone who thinks a character is bad because his damage is low, look at kabal, no high dmg combos but wait hes
top 1?

 

[HeavyRisk413]

I don't understand how to chain shazams command grab into things. Its just too hard to input when under pressure.

 

[IrishMantis]

You people crazy, I think Shazam is the most underrated Char in the game, you people are not getting him at all, Shazam is nt just Rush play him like a grabber there unblock able both high AND crouch they can both lead to big combos, play him like a grappler I will admit his timing is hard to link the grabs but once you get them your good, Shazam damage is not too bad about 35 present meter less which is pretty handy, and Shazam s more a corner combo char, you can tell that because most of his chains knck yor far back, with enough time to get a free phase so you can continue to pressure them in the corner, and once you get them in the corner, then tell me how low his damage is,,,,, so if you want to understand Shazam look at him as the turtles worst enemy, his main downfall is not dmg it's his reliability on Meter

 

[HeavyRisk413]

You people crazy, I think Shazam is the most underrated Char in the game, you people are not getting him at all, Shazam is nt just Rush play him like a grabber there unblock able both high AND crouch they can both lead to big combos, play him like a grappler I will admit his timing is hard to link the grabs but once you get them your good, Shazam damage is not too bad about 35 present meter less which is pretty handy, and Shazam s more a corner combo char, you can tell that because most of his chains knck yor far back, with enough time to get a free phase so you can continue to pressure them in the corner, and once you get them in the corner, then tell me how low his damage is,,,,, so if you want to understand Shazam look at him as the turtles worst enemy, his main downfall is not dmg it's his reliability on Meter

what are some good tips for shazam? I like 22 a lot. I find the 11 to be lacking.. Also, when I knock someone down as shazam.. what should I do? Should I run up to them? Most of the time I knock them down and then they roll backward some more.

 

[Onilordasmodeus]

Though I have a ways to go with my Shazam, Shazam is awesome.

- 2, 2, is a great setup for his 50/50 throw mix up.
- his psycho cruser is safe on block, hits mid, and can be used at the end of block strings.
- While his teleport can go through projectiles, I mainly use it up close to get a cross up opprtunity or when I'm getting rushed down.
- his trait is powerful and can lead to 60+% combos in the corner, and 50+% mid screen combos.

All around Shazam is pretty good, the only down side to Shazam is he has no real zoning game, or an "easy" counter to being zoned. I'm currently grinding him to figure something out, but as of right now, he is one of my best rush down characters.

 

[HeavyRisk413]

Though I have a ways to go with my Shazam, Shazam is awesome.

- 2, 2, is a great setup for his 50/50 throw mix up.
- his psycho cruser is safe on block, hits mid, and can be used at the end of block strings.
- While his teleport can go through projectiles, I mainly use it up close to get a cross up opprtunity or when I'm getting rushed down.
- his trait is powerful and can lead to 60+% combos in the corner, and 50+% mid screen combos.

All around Shazam is pretty good, the only down side to Shazam is he has no real zoning game, or an "easy" counter to being zoned. I'm currently grinding him to figure something out, but as of right now, he is one of my best rush down characters.

does shazam have ANYTHING that hits low? I am frustrated because his crouching 1 and be blocked while the enemy is standing.

 

[Onilordasmodeus]

what are some good tips for shazam? I like 22 a lot. I find the 11 to be lacking.. Also, when I knock someone down as shazam.. what should I do? Should I run up to them? Most of the time I knock them down and then they roll backward some more.

I know your comment wasn't directed to me, but after a knock down I either ruch in and pressure with a throw, b1,2,3 or b1,2,torpedo for a quick mix up. Rushing in and use teleport to get behind is a good way to blow up any wakeup attacks or just get a cross up as well. If you find that your opponent is ducking a lot after a knock down, b2 is a good launcher that has great range and leads to some decent damage, but be mind full that the spacing on it has to be spot on because doing it to close can potentially send you over you opponent and leave you open.

As far as naked strings go, 1,1,2 is an easy string that can be abused but against crouching opponent the first hit will wiff leaving you open. It can be followed up with teleport or torpedo on block and allowed for more mind games. In the corner, 1,1,2 leads to the biggest combos that I've found with him; 62% and 65%. f1,2 is a decent string as well, and can be used just like 2,2 as it can be buffered into either of his throws. In the corner on hit, either of the throws are garunteed, but only the MB standing camand grab will lead to any serious damage.

Shazam's pressure is great, but it's staying close to your opponent that is the trick. If someone starts to zone Shazam, you'll have a crap time trying to get back in.

 

[Onilordasmodeus]

does shazam have ANYTHING that hits low? I am frustrated because his crouching 1 and be blocked while the enemy is standing.

Shazam's d3 is pretty good and has decent reach, and his b1,2,3 hit low on the 3rd hit and is pretty safe on block. Since torpedo is an overhead and is (I'm pretty sure) safe on block, b1,2, torpedo mixed with b1,2,3 is a mix up.

 

[Malec]

All around Shazam is pretty good, the only down side to Shazam is he has no real zoning game, or an "easy" counter to being zoned. I'm currently grinding him to figure something out, but as of right now, he is one of my best rush down characters.

i guess thats the main problem, that most people have. game is so new and we all arent familiar with all the mechanics. so getting around zoning is hard/the challange at first with some chars. give the game a couple of months and put in the hard work on those chars you enjoy and chars like shazam/hawkgirl/lex will rise, at least i hope so ^^

 

[Phase 3]

yeah i read it, but he doesnt seem to know that 22 on crouch block or standing will guarantee grab, hes saying its a 50/50, no its not

Woah woah woah, it totally IS a 50/50. You either use Herculean Might or Achille's Clutch following 2,2 and either you guessed right or you guessed wrong: (Heads/Herculean Might/they're standing) vs. (Tails/Achille's Clutch/They Ducked). In the guide I specifically use words like "Jail", "Forces them to" and "they HAVE to guess" in that section which to me, makes it pretty clear that I understand 2,2 nets you a free command grab attempt.

I'll reword it if you think this is particularly unclear, but make no mistake: it's a total 50/50 and people have known about this for ages. This isn't even the kind of tech we need to be aggressively promoting though, and here's why, and this may be something everyone is missing:

Both grabs are full combo punishable on whiff.

What that means is, you're doing a 50/50 and when players figure out Shazam you will start get punished with their biggest, most damaging combo when you guess wrong. Sounds a lot like Scorpion, and this tool certainly didn't save him in MK9. I'm not saying Shazam is god awful or as bad as Scorp, but promoting "2,2 xx grab 50/50 to victory" isn't really the best advice in the long term. You should never devolve a character down to a coinflip.

Shazam as a character will live or die based on the community's ability to make legit tech in the form of setups that influence your opponent's block (like the D1 setup in the guide, which has worked on countless great players so far), which skew the 50/50 odds in your favor. Just going 2,2 into command grab is only something I'd recommend with a decent lifelead or if you're on magic pixel of your first healthbar and can afford the risk... or if you're playing someone who just doesn't know any better, but I'm speaking purely of high level play at the immediate moment. There are SO many better ways to use the grabs with higher chances of success.

Also, "in the guide by that guy" -- I mean, I'm not asking you to call this the Phase 3 "Loop" despite the fact that I've made this stuff known since Day 1 (although this is mainly because I don't want everyone to try to name every little piece of tech after themselves like the Smash community) let alone the fact that Brady has known for... months; but if you're even going to reference the guide in the first place taking a second to get the name would've been nice haha. It's not really a huge deal though.

I don't mean to come off as abrasive, I really don't, I like to keep things positive and friendly around here, but this whole thread bothers the hell out of me and might have put me in somewhat of a bad mood. Shazam has a LOT of holes. Tons. Let's just be serious here, he's not a great character by conventional standards -- not when you look at the blatantly dominating characters. He is tragically unsafe on almost all his best tools (B2, b23, Torpedo, both grabs, 2,2, etc.) and when people learn to punish him it's only going to get worse.

Instead of arguing whether he's good or bad or trying to promote coinflip strategies, we need more legit tech for crossup setups (given that his crossup j.2 is absolutely godlike, it's way safer than going for raw grabs and leads to huuuge damage on hit) or stuff that influences block, or other, safer setups.

 

[Zyphox]

Woah woah woah, it totally IS a 50/50. You either use Herculean Might or Achille's Clutch following 2,2 and either you guessed right or you guessed wrong: (Heads/Herculean Might/they're standing) vs. (Tails/Achille's Clutch/They Ducked). In the guide I specifically use words like "Jail", "Forces them to" and "they HAVE to guess" in that section which to me, makes it pretty clear that I understand 2,2 nets you a free command grab attempt.

I'll reword it if you think this is particularly unclear, but make no mistake: it's a total 50/50 and people have known about this for ages. This isn't even the kind of tech we need to be aggressively promoting though, and here's why, and this may be something everyone is missing:

Both grabs are full combo punishable on whiff.

What that means is, you're doing a 50/50 and when players figure out Shazam you will start get punished with their biggest, most damaging combo when you guess wrong. Sounds like Scorpion, and how great was this tool for Scorpion in MK9 again? I'm not saying Shazam is god awful or as bad as Scorp, but saying "2,2 xx grab 50/50 to victory!" isn't great advice. You should never devolve a character down to a coinflip.

Shazam as a character will live or die based on the community's ability to make legit tech in the form of setups that influence your opponent's block (like the D1 setup in the guide, which has worked on countless great players so far), which skew the 50/50 odds in your favor. Just going 2,2 into command grab is only something I'd recommend with a decent lifelead or if you're on magic pixel of your first healthbar and can afford the risk... or if you're playing someone who just doesn't know any better, but I'm speaking purely of high level play at the immediate moment. There are SO many better ways to use the grabs with higher chances of success.

Also, "in the guide by that guy" -- I mean, I'm not asking you to call this the Phase 3 "Loop" despite the fact that I've made this stuff known since Day 1 (although this is mainly because I don't want everyone to try to name every little piece of tech after themselves like the Smash community) let alone the fact that Brady has known for... months; but if you're even going to reference the guide in the first place taking a second to get the name would've been nice haha. It's not really a huge deal though.

I don't mean to come off as abrasive, I really don't, I like to keep things positive and friendly around here, but this whole thread bothers the hell out of me and might have put me in somewhat of a bad mood. Shazam has a LOT of holes. Tons. Let's just be serious here, he's not a great character by conventional standards -- not when you look at the blatantly dominating characters. He is tragically unsafe on almost all his best tools (B2 [-11], b23 [-9], Torpedo, both grabs, 2,2, etc.) and when people learn to punish him it's only going to get worse.

Instead of arguing whether he's good or bad or trying to promote coinflip strategies, we need more legit tech for crossup setups (given that his crossup j.2 is absolutely godlike, it's way safer than going for raw grabs and leads to huuuge damage on hit) or stuff that influences block, or other, safer setups.

sorry this comment is old, like 30 minutes in the lab with shazam old, i figured out that it was a training mode bug that made it so that high grab hit crouched opponents, sorry for the confusion
edit i read the rest of your comment, and it was you i was reffering to in the video, but since i have been getting so much shit for naming tech as a joke, because i cleary have a smiley face in the title i will remove the video, the thread and the title, happy?

 

[poofynamanama2]

d1 low grab is godlike when you're expecting counterpokes

 

[HeavyRisk413]

Woah woah woah, it totally IS a 50/50. You either use Herculean Might or Achille's Clutch following 2,2 and either you guessed right or you guessed wrong: (Heads/Herculean Might/they're standing) vs. (Tails/Achille's Clutch/They Ducked). In the guide I specifically use words like "Jail", "Forces them to" and "they HAVE to guess" in that section which to me, makes it pretty clear that I understand 2,2 nets you a free command grab attempt.

I'll reword it if you think this is particularly unclear, but make no mistake: it's a total 50/50 and people have known about this for ages. This isn't even the kind of tech we need to be aggressively promoting though, and here's why, and this may be something everyone is missing:

Both grabs are full combo punishable on whiff.

What that means is, you're doing a 50/50 and when players figure out Shazam you will start get punished with their biggest, most damaging combo when you guess wrong. Sounds a lot like Scorpion, and this tool certainly didn't save him in MK9. I'm not saying Shazam is god awful or as bad as Scorp, but promoting "2,2 xx grab 50/50 to victory" isn't really the best advice in the long term. You should never devolve a character down to a coinflip.

Shazam as a character will live or die based on the community's ability to make legit tech in the form of setups that influence your opponent's block (like the D1 setup in the guide, which has worked on countless great players so far), which skew the 50/50 odds in your favor. Just going 2,2 into command grab is only something I'd recommend with a decent lifelead or if you're on magic pixel of your first healthbar and can afford the risk... or if you're playing someone who just doesn't know any better, but I'm speaking purely of high level play at the immediate moment. There are SO many better ways to use the grabs with higher chances of success.

Also, "in the guide by that guy" -- I mean, I'm not asking you to call this the Phase 3 "Loop" despite the fact that I've made this stuff known since Day 1 (although this is mainly because I don't want everyone to try to name every little piece of tech after themselves like the Smash community) let alone the fact that Brady has known for... months; but if you're even going to reference the guide in the first place taking a second to get the name would've been nice haha. It's not really a huge deal though.

I don't mean to come off as abrasive, I really don't, I like to keep things positive and friendly around here, but this whole thread bothers the hell out of me and might have put me in somewhat of a bad mood. Shazam has a LOT of holes. Tons. Let's just be serious here, he's not a great character by conventional standards -- not when you look at the blatantly dominating characters. He is tragically unsafe on almost all his best tools (B2, b23, Torpedo, both grabs, 2,2, etc.) and when people learn to punish him it's only going to get worse.

Instead of arguing whether he's good or bad or trying to promote coinflip strategies, we need more legit tech for crossup setups (given that his crossup j.2 is absolutely godlike, it's way safer than going for raw grabs and leads to huuuge damage on hit) or stuff that influences block, or other, safer setups.

wow nice post. Anyway, I have some trouble with opponents who like.. just back away from me. They just walk backwards and I whiff most of my jump attacks and then when I try to dash in they just hit me. If I try to teleport in, they hit me. Basically it seems like I have no way of getting close to opponents.

 

[Heroic_Legacy]

Walking their ass to the corner then licking your lips knowing that your neutral j.2 will stuff out almost every attempt to escape from the air. And that if they do something unsafe you get a 40% meterless corner combo. And that they now want to get out cause...Shazam is pretty scary.

 

[DreadzTsung]

I would really like to get good with shazam but its just so difficult. I find that his teleport really isn't that great. I have tried to use it to like "phase" through objects and projectiles but your timing has to be so perfect. Its nearly impossible to do properly. I also dislike how interwined his command grabs are with his kit. The low grab is easy to pull off under pressure but the standing command grab is not. Its so clunky...

Is shazam bad or is he okay? I find that I can't close gaps easily and safely also. Not to mention is 1,1 combo is such short range.. What an odd combo.

Anyway, how can I get good with shazam? I have read everything on this board and I still perform poorly. Spend hours in the training room and then go online and still get demolished. A lot of my friends have told me to just hang up shazam forever but I don't want to do that.

HeavyRisk413 If your on ps3 add me. I could show you some stuff. Shazam is one of my mains. If you have a mic that would be great if not then we can text chat.
Here's some things tho:

-Dbf1 is unblockable.(unless armored)
-db1 is unblockable.(unless armored)
-b2 clears distance fast and a dbf1 can be used right after for instant combo(although b2 is punishable).
-His corner combos are amazing.(especially 112 with his character trait)
-his character trait only increases damage on hands. (At least that's what I think).
-once in on your opponent. His d1 db1 is very good. (Most opponents seem to crouch and try to counter poke after you. If they do crouch you can 1 db1 into combo. However if they don't crouch or if they stand after they poke and you try to grab. That leaves you vulnerable for a big combo.
-please remember his teleport can be used to move in and around but not against zoners like deathstroke,sinestro,
Raven,etc. you can teleport but not like if it was bad zoning character trying to zone.
-if you can teleport close enough you can go for a combo right out if the teleport.
-Teleport can be very punishable.
-a good strain on a blocking opponent is 22 dbf1 since they have no time to react before the grab.
-Remember he is low tier.

 

[Johnny2d]

Shazam is good, but he relys on commanding respect. In order to command respect you have to play smart and trick your opponent. In this way he is one of the harder characters to pick up and play well immediately, however he will be a character that has great depth at high level.

People seem to be think his high punches aren't that great but I think they are just fine. 1,1 and b12 are both 8 frames start up and near 0 on block which is great because both strings have a third hit that you can add in if you catch them trying to press buttons. After 11 you get a semi free d1 because of this, which gets you back to starting the pressure strings again or backing up and whiff punishing with his great whiff ounishers. If at any point they start poking you out (which a ot of people do because we are trainend to poke out of cage/jax/kabal pressure) then pay attention to when they like to do this, this is where you end pressure and low grab. Also, if they are poking out, get em with a 22 instead, or a f22 after a jump in, these options can't be poked out of. Once they respect your options to do 11, b12, and down 1 stuff, once you see them blocking you get tic throws which means since you've conditioned them to block normals you can now stop your string early, as long as its low minus frames, and go for a throw. Remember that you can use regular throw too, his regular throw is amazing, has great range, and if you aren't willing to be 100% YOLO then regular throw is a great option. Last, I know this is a super cheeze tactic, but having trait active and just D1 over and over and over again might be one of the most enfuriating tactics there is, lightning punches in the knees until they die.

Add in trait to make them fear your damage... and the sky is the limit. Especially in the corner with trait active, people will be worried about taking any of his overheads into 70% damage, that they will let you just walk up and throw, that or they could play stupid from worrying about that corner damage, watch for this.

So yeah, to run this style of offence you have to make them respect your options. You also have to make some correct guesses. If you can force them to play your style, and you get some correct guesses, then Shazam can hang with any character in this game. Where he does struggle on the other hand, is characters that force him to play thier way, and most characters in this game have a touch of that. The Shazam community will live or dye by our ability to put together game plans for each specific character that we think is a bad match up.

 

[DreadzTsung]

Shazam is good, but he relys on commanding respect. In order to command respect you have to play smart and trick your opponent. In this way he is one of the harder characters to pick up and play well immediately, however he will be a character that has great depth at high level.

People seem to be think his high punches aren't that great but I think they are just fine. 1,1 and b12 are both 8 frames start up and near 0 on block which is great because both strings have a third hit that you can add in if you catch them trying to press buttons. After 11 you get a semi free d1 because of this, which gets you back to starting the pressure strings again or backing up and whiff punishing with his great whiff ounishers. If at any point they start poking you out (which a ot of people do because we are trainend to poke out of cage/jax/kabal pressure) then pay attention to when they like to do this, this is where you end pressure and low grab. Also, if they are poking out, get em with a 22 instead, or a f22 after a jump in, these options can't be poked out of. Once they respect your options to do 11, b12, and down 1 stuff, once you see them blocking you get tic throws which means since you've conditioned them to block normals you can now stop your string early, as long as its low minus frames, and go for a throw. Remember that you can use regular throw too, his regular throw is amazing, has great range, and if you aren't willing to be 100% YOLO then regular throw is a great option. Last, I know this is a super cheeze tactic, but having trait active and just D1 over and over and over again might be one of the most enfuriating tactics there is, lightning punches in the knees until they die.

Add in trait to make them fear your damage... and the sky is the limit. Especially in the corner with trait active, people will be worried about taking any of his overheads into 70% damage, that they will let you just walk up and throw, that or they could play stupid from worrying about that corner damage, watch for this.

So yeah, to run this style of offence you have to make them respect your options. You also have to make some correct guesses. If you can force them to play your style, and you get some correct guesses, then Shazam can hang with any character in this game. Where he does struggle on the other hand, is characters that force him to play thier way, and most characters in this game have a touch of that. The Shazam community will live or dye by our ability to put together game plans for each specific character that we think is a bad match up.

I have a small understanding or maybe no understanding of frames at all. Allow me to ask a few questions?
-is 0 on block good or bad?
-lets say shazam had a combo with +3 frames and his opponent blocked is does he or the opponent advantaged?
-are their only negative frames on block?
-are + frames good or bad?
-do negative frames leave you vulnerable?

 

[Johnny2d]

I have a small understanding or maybe no understanding of frames at all. Allow me to ask a few questions?
-is 0 on block good or bad?
-lets say shazam had a combo with +3 frames and his opponent blocked is does he or the opponent advantaged?
-are their only negative frames on block?
-are + frames good or bad?
-do negative frames leave you vulnerable?

There has to be an explanation of frame advantage around here somewhere...

This is from Eventhubs so its using Sf4 for its example but it applies to all fighting games:
http://www.eventhubs.com/guides/2009/feb/17/how-read-frame-data-street-fighter-4/

To answer your specific questions.
- 0 on block is good because both players are at neautral, meaning both people are free to move at the same time. If you have the option to do another normal in your string or a special then its great because your opponent might be worried that you will continue hitting them with that string, but since you are 0 on block, you can go for a throw attempt which can catch them off guard. Basically the chance that you might do another normal or a special allows you to switch things up and do something they don't expect.

-If Shazam is at plus +3, that means he is at advantage (of 3 frames). So you are free to move or attack 3 frames earlier than the opponent who is still in block stun for 3 frames. Remember that 3 frames is a 20th of a second, so its not an overwhelmingly obvious thing, but these are the small bits of time we fight for to create situations.

-Yes negative frames leave you at disadvantage. To use the previous example, if Shazam is +3, that means the opponent is -3 and so on.

 

[DreadzTsung]

There has to be an explanation of frame advantage around here somewhere...

This is from Eventhubs so its using Sf4 for its example but it applies to all fighting games:
http://www.eventhubs.com/guides/2009/feb/17/how-read-frame-data-street-fighter-4/

To answer your specific questions.
- 0 on block is good because both players are at neautral, meaning both people are free to move at the same time. If you have the option to do another normal in your string or a special then its great because your opponent might be worried that you will continue hitting them with that string, but since you are 0 on block, you can go for a throw attempt which can catch them off guard. Basically the chance that you might do another normal or a special allows you to switch things up and do something they don't expect.

-If Shazam is at plus +3, that means he is at advantage (of 3 frames). So you are free to move or attack 3 frames earlier than the opponent who is still in block stun for 3 frames. Remember that 3 frames is a 20th of a second, so its not an overwhelmingly obvious thing, but these are the small bits of time we fight for to create situations.

-Yes negative frames leave you at disadvantage. To use the previous example, if Shazam is +3, that means the opponent is -3 and so on.

So I'm guessing you can never be zero on hit?
Also that means there are only negative frames on hit?

 

[Johnny2d]

So I'm guessing you can never be zero on hit?
Also that means there are only negative frames on hit?

You could be 0 on hit, but typically the reward for a hit is advantage, so you would get hit stun. You can look at the frames in game in Injustice btw, it will tell you for each move what the advantage is on hit and block. Although I hear the in game frame data isn't always right.

 

[DreadzTsung]

You could be 0 on hit, but typically the reward for a hit is advantage, so you would get hit stun. You can look at the frames in game in Injustice btw, it will tell you for each move what the advantage is on hit and block. Although I hear the in game frame data isn't always right.

Well are there only negative frames on hit?

 

[Johnny2d]

Well are there only negative frames on hit?

You are usually plus on hit, positive frames. Positive frames means its your advantage.

 

[HeavyRisk413]

Why is the input for shazams standing command grab so difficult? I don't understand why its dbf 1 instead of.. df1

The current input is so alien to me and I cannot do it consistently. Currently df1 does nothing on shazam so I don't see why they didnt make his standing grab that input. Is it because that would have been too easy?