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Match-up Discussion Qwark's Subzero matchup chart

NRF CharlieMurphy

Kindergarten Meta
Uhh no, not really. Its most effective at complete full screen like freddy.

But you can do it before full screen is reached. Fireball will be blocked and tkp will catch sub zero start up animation. Iceball wont come out.

If this is done to close, sub will trade iceball with tkp... But then that is no longer a frame trap
sorry sorry
I meant.... rather than blocking fireball i ducked it.
 

STB Sgt Reed

Online Warrior
thats like saying every character can block a slide
Exactly. Thank you for confirming my point.

Things like that can not be used in MU numbers b/c it's something everyone can do on a read, or baiting, etc. That's not a character specific thing.

Quan being able to uppercut something is... it's a 7 frame uppercut and one of his tools. Doesn't matter if you can bait and punish it. Any character can.
 

zaf

professor
Oh no ermac needs you to block the fireball. Its the fireball block stun that allows him to get away with this.

If you crouch the fireball, then shoot an iceball it will trade with a tkp.

However that would be a bad move on ermacs behalf.

What ermac can do is shoot a fireball and if it is crouched, adapt to what the opponent does. Jump the iceball would be a good move. But thats stepping into theory fighter land. I mean this is something i have done before but it was all reads and reads have no place in mu discussion


Edit: ermac fireball crouched into tkp would also, not be a frame trap.
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
Exactly. Thank you for confirming my point.

Things like that can not be used in MU numbers b/c it's something everyone can do on a read, or baiting, etc. That's not a character specific thing.

Quan being able to uppercut something is... it's a 7 frame uppercut and one of his tools. Doesn't matter if you can bait and punish it. Any character can.
that doesnt mean its not a tool

if that tool is an answer to something character specific then it is calculated in the matchup
 

Eddy Wang

Skarlet scientist
I think most of the Skarlet community agrees with sub vs. skarlet 3-7 skarlet favor but I'm not one to give definitive MU numbers. I think Brady once said it was 2-8. My thoughts are that Skarlet with meter can blow up ice balls and without meter she can teleport them and build meter quickly with iaD. Sub's D4 can be whiffed punished up close by iaDD and farther away by red slide. Skarlet up close pressure is good vs. Sub cuz she can EX Dagger into cross-over and (correct me if I'm wrong) I believe you can only D1 AA or armor out cuz of the advantage given off of blocked EX Dagger and Sub's D1 sucks. The only time Sub has an advantage is probably in the corner when Skarlet has no meter. Most losses I get are from me making silly mistakes (red sliding into clone, jumping too high for iaDD, overuse of grounded daggers).

L0rdoftheFLY Ninj Eddy Wang Mosp Johnny2d AssassiN[be] Laos_boy @other Skarlet users
She can also time her Crimson dash with the clone to disable them and punish sub-zero while he is hoping back, before he being able to block.She can also crimson dash ex slide and come back for a jump in combo, and consequently it will deal 5% more damage with any combo if she touches the armor 1st before coming back.:(
 

Obs_SmSwag

"I have good taste because I like what I like"
It warms my heart to see people disagree with qwark's MU numbers as much as I do.
 

Metzos

You will BOW to me!
Ok so ermac vs sub

Ok so 312, 12 whiffs. Who cares. Dont use it without a jip. Problem solved.

Iafb blows up d4s. Use that up close if needed. If not needed back off to where tkp is safe and hang out there.

Ermac is not a rush down character, so i don't see the need to make it more obvious by saying 312 whiffs. Beating a dead horse there.

Saying 312 whiffs is kinda year 1 mk, when we are waaaay passed that now.
This, pretty much. You guys have yet to understand that Ermac is NOT A RUSH DOWN CHARACTER. He creates spacing, he does not pressure. When you understand that, then we can talk. As for the Ermac-SZ MU, it could be 6-4 Ermac, if Ermac decides to completely zone SZ. Its a really lame MU, especially for SZ. Even if he gets the life lead, Ermac can still chip him to death.

STB CharlieMurphy, yeah Hidan's Rain might be years before Smars but that doesnt mean he doesnt know the SZ MU. Plus he has been playing this character seriously, for what, 3 or 4 months ? Also keep in mind we gather only once a week for casuals. At this moment we are just playing the game to keep the MK scene alive in this part of the world, not to show off. We simply just love the game that much to see it die. You said he didnt have good execution. Where exactly did you see that, cause i havent seen any dropped combos at all in his match vs Qwark. Plz stop downgrading players and if you think you are better than Hidan, then by all means, post some of your Rain footage vs a good SZ so we can all see how you play the MU. Offline ofc... This has to stop sometime soon, cause it is getting ridiculous. Even trolling has its limits.

Post edited.
 

FrozenG3oX

<3 gimmicks
Shang can out zone Sub. I agree with cowboy on this one. Also, SZ does not have equal dmg with Shang with his combos. Plus, Shang= unbreakable combos man, and some of them hurt. Damage boost at the end of the round. Up close EX SS> anything Sub has. I believe this is 6 - 4 Shang imo. Also SZ - Raka is an even MU and there is no way in hell Sonya - SZ is an even MU. 6 - 4 Sonya. Stop trolling Qwark.
Raka is free to sub zero, dude...the sonya match is pretty even...she's like a johnny cage with a faster proijectile that u can still duck
 

smokey

EX Ovi should launch
Smoke doesnt get 7-3 against sub.
Whats your write up on this match? Im meant to be working atm but i'll give my view on it soon.
 

smokey

EX Ovi should launch
Checked out some of that thread, its not all wrong but 7-3 is a REALLY skewed matchup. 6-4 is reasonable.

Subs d4 causes problems for smoke at the range sub will be playing offense at, which is just outside smokes D4 range, where smoke bombs are risky.
Smoke bombs doing no chip means that smoke has to chase you down on a life loss, and smoke has to fight his way in to come back from a lifelead, which means getting through d4 and clones.
Admittedly smoke can sit full screen with a life lead and sub has to chase him down, but smoke on the defensive isnt really hard to deal with because hes always moving towards a corner.
Once you knock smoke down his wake up options are poor, most get stuffed by D4, sub has clones and slide on wake up so smoke still has to keep them in mind when pressuring.

Smoke has problems forcing mistakes in this matchup. If you arent going to throw ice balls or randomly slide, you can sit behind a clone and hammer away with D4 if he tries to move in, smoke can have all the meter he likes, if you dont duck b2's you can get away with murder.

This is a pretty lame match where both characters can run away with a life lead, but sub does it by sitting tight where he is, smoke has to give up ground and ends up in the corner.

Its a shitty 4-6 because resets hurt, but sub can play quite safe and that can be a bitch for smoke to come back from when the clock is ticking. If you get caught in a 100% reset you clearly fuck about with your meter too much.
 

NRF CharlieMurphy

Kindergarten Meta
STB CharlieMurphy, yeah Hidan's Rain might be years before Smars but that doesnt mean he doesnt know the SZ MU. Plus he has been playing this character seriously, for what, 3 or 4 months ? Also keep in mind we gather only once a week for casuals. At this moment we are just playing the game to keep the MK scene alive in this part of the world, not to show off. We simply just love the game that much to see it die. You said he didnt have good execution. Where exactly did you see that, cause i havent seen any dropped combos at all in his match vs Qwark. Plz stop downgrading players and if you think you are better than Hidan, then by all means, post some of your Rain footage vs a good SZ so we can all see how you play the MU. Offline ofc... This has to stop sometime soon, cause it is getting ridiculous. Even trolling has its limits.

Post edited.
I have nothing against Hidan ...... but i'm not spouting BS.
He did combo's that require little to no execution.... didn't use 4~RH or 4,3~RH at all from what I saw, didn't use hsi armor... nor steal meter.

Its not that i'm bashing him, he just has a ton to learn with the character. That is a pure fact. When your Rain BNB's don't involve taking almost half life... then you are still not at top level. I'd say this about anyone who played the character. I've NEVER claimed myself to be top anything. But i've been accused MULTIPLE time of not knowing much of anything, simply because I play a majority of my MK matches online. Pretty shitty logic if you ask me.
I totally get what you're doing and I respect the hell out of it. My post wasn't to bash any player. I probably could of went about it a bit nicer... but Qwark doesn't exactly come off as the type that will accept nice. I'd defend my group till I die... wrong or right. But My posts are NEVER to bash another player for how they played.

I simply get fed up with the constant counter "word fighting" that happens in these discussions. I know it has to happen..... but it gets to a point to where it just doens't matter. We are at that point. Its funny becausse I actually enjoy most of qwarks actual tech and thought process. I just don't like how it comes across. But thats just being bitchy.

In any case... I said my piece. I honestly don't have a problem with you, qwark, hidan... anyone.
 

NRF CharlieMurphy

Kindergarten Meta
Raka is free to sub zero, dude...the sonya match is pretty even...she's like a johnny cage with a faster proijectile that u can still duck
Raka is not free by any means. You still need to know hwo to fight him, or he'll wreck you. Not many characters can say "I can crush ice clone with a well spaced special move."
He is one of them. His corner game is also very good, and a majority of the match is spent there, because that is where BOTH characters want to be. SZ might have a slight advantage with just having better overall normals, but Baraka isn't horrible. Honestly, if his standing 2 were 10 frames... he'd be a force.

Sonya just has too many ways to crush you when she touches you. Unless you have Brady type balls of steel and can simply stand around most of the match and FORCE her to make mistakes... it can be an uphill battle. What you do in 2 combo's, she can make up for in 1. She's better than Cage in the MU because her armor combo's. That is a big deal. Makes her MUCH harder to contain in the corner. She isn't stubby like JC... she whiff punishes SZ much better.

Just tiny tiny thing clearly...
 

FrozenG3oX

<3 gimmicks
Raka is not free by any means. You still need to know hwo to fight him, or he'll wreck you. Not many characters can say "I can crush ice clone with a well spaced special move."
He is one of them. His corner game is also very good, and a majority of the match is spent there, because that is where BOTH characters want to be. SZ might have a slight advantage with just having better overall normals, but Baraka isn't horrible. Honestly, if his standing 2 were 10 frames... he'd be a force.

Sonya just has too many ways to crush you when she touches you. Unless you have Brady type balls of steel and can simply stand around most of the match and FORCE her to make mistakes... it can be an uphill battle. What you do in 2 combo's, she can make up for in 1. She's better than Cage in the MU because her armor combo's. That is a big deal. Makes her MUCH harder to contain in the corner. She isn't stubby like JC... she whiff punishes SZ much better.

Just tiny tiny thing clearly...
raka has slow normals...sub zeros d4 is faster than everything raka has, except for this d3 which has short range...
 

NRF CharlieMurphy

Kindergarten Meta
raka has slow normals...sub zeros d4 is faster than everything raka has, except for this d3 which has short range...
he won't be using the super slow ones to approach.
and Blade charge is hella fast...

I'm not disagreeing that SZ has a very obvious advantage.... but Baraka is far from free.
 
I will come in here and leave all of you with this advice on Sub-Zero

NO CHARACTER is free for Sub-Zero. You cannot just put up clones and expect characters like Baraka to run into them. Even a character like Kano that I have made out to look like an extreme advantage in several tourney and casual matches is not free to Sub-Zero.

The character takes constant thought and set ups all with high risk regardless of the character he is facing. One thing I will pass on.. just because some characters are easier to deal with, that doesn't make them EASY to deal with.

I have BY FAR the most experience as a Sub-Zero main.. Was I the best Sub? Probably not, nor was I even a good MK9 player. But one thing I did learn, Sub-Zero takes YEARS of exp at the highest level to perfect the craft. Even when you think its perfected, a new problem comes up and you have to take him back into the lab. This is why speaking in absolutes with him is NEVER a good idea when it comes to Sub-Zero. There is ALWAYS going to be a new issue to grind out in the lab.

Lastly.. I do not hate any Sub-Zero player or anyone in this community. I owe each and every one of you and the rest of the community a debt of gratitude. Its I who need to thank you, not he other way around. With my MK9 retirement, I wish the rest of you the best of luck with Sub-Zero. Many of you have leveled up so I'm sure you will accomplish big things.
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
raka has slow normals...sub zeros d4 is faster than everything raka has, except for this d3 which has short range...
baraka gets insane chip damage from not even hitting you

this match is all about the lifelead, yes, subzeros D4 is faster, but blade charge punishes that and lets not forget that whiffs are punishable.

when life is even baraka can poke with a safe blade charge for 2% chip and meter, if you anticipate that you can clone, but then you're not actively taking the lead back

what makes this subzero adv IMO is that

Baraka with meter= subzero cant do shit to build meter and has to chase him
Subzero with meter= baraka cant do anything anyways because he risks a trade
Baraka when he doesnt wanna waste meter= subzero can build meter
Subzero when he doesnt wanna waste meter= baraka still risks getting frozen

when subzero chases raka he can't zone if baraka has meter, raka HAS to be managing his meter better in order to be able to steal the lead back with ex charge incase sub fucks up

both parties have to be very well spaced, its just that subzero builds meter when baraka doesnt have or doesnt wanna waste it and still be at a losing lifelead, this is of course taking into account the huge chip + meter drain of baraka if and when he gets in.

IMO in decimals this is 5.5-4.5, its really not a 6-4 or a decent disadvantage but as the number system on which the MU chart is based me basically forces me to put it like that.
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
I will come in here and leave all of you with this advice on Sub-Zero

NO CHARACTER is free for Sub-Zero. You cannot just put up clones and expect characters like Baraka to run into them. Even a character like Kano that I have made out to look like an extreme advantage in several tourney and casual matches is not free to Sub-Zero.

The character takes constant thought and set ups all with high risk regardless of the character he is facing. One thing I will pass on.. just because some characters are easier to deal with, that doesn't make them EASY to deal with.

I have BY FAR the most experience as a Sub-Zero main.. was I the best Sub? Probably not, nor was a top MK9 player as a whole. But one thing I did learn, Sub-Zero takes YEARS of exp at the highest level to perfect the craft. Even when you think its perfected, a new problem comes up and you have to take him back into the lab. This is why speaking in absolutes with him is NEVER a good idea when it comes to Sub-Zero. There is ALWAYS going to be a new issue to grind out in the lab.

Lastly.. I do not hate any Sub-Zero player or anyone in this community. I owe each and every one of you and the rest of the community a debt of gratitude. Its I who need to thank you, not he other way around. With my MK9 retirement, I wish the rest of you the best of luck with Sub-Zero. Many of you have leveled up so I'm sure you will accomplish big things.
I have a question that has been troubling me for a while

how do you balance an aggressive subzero with a patient one? i play mostly aggressive when the matchup and conditions allow me but when i get results from laming out matchups, theres a clear dichotomy in which playstyle is better to use, at least for me.

very well said post, this is why i main sub, one of the best characters to show the capabilities of his player.
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
I have nothing against Hidan ...... but i'm not spouting BS.
He did combo's that require little to no execution.... didn't use 4~RH or 4,3~RH at all from what I saw, didn't use hsi armor... nor steal meter.

Its not that i'm bashing him, he just has a ton to learn with the character. That is a pure fact. When your Rain BNB's don't involve taking almost half life... then you are still not at top level. I'd say this about anyone who played the character. I've NEVER claimed myself to be top anything. But i've been accused MULTIPLE time of not knowing much of anything, simply because I play a majority of my MK matches online. Pretty shitty logic if you ask me.
I totally get what you're doing and I respect the hell out of it. My post wasn't to bash any player. I probably could of went about it a bit nicer... but Qwark doesn't exactly come off as the type that will accept nice. I'd defend my group till I die... wrong or right. But My posts are NEVER to bash another player for how they played.

I simply get fed up with the constant counter "word fighting" that happens in these discussions. I know it has to happen..... but it gets to a point to where it just doens't matter. We are at that point. Its funny becausse I actually enjoy most of qwarks actual tech and thought process. I just don't like how it comes across. But thats just being bitchy.

In any case... I said my piece. I honestly don't have a problem with you, qwark, hidan... anyone.
I don't have anything with you either, just like you see me come off as arrogant and rude, I see you come out as convinced in a playstyle that I've spent lots of time testing and hasn't worked for me.

Look at this from my point of view, when you come in and try to completely blow my point of view and tactics out of the water without taking into account the disadvantages and mindgames that result from the playstyle you propose then you're really not giving me much to argue with.

It's not that I don't appreciate nice, it's that I appreciate a nice and logical train of thought with breaking down of advantages and disadvantages, I do it as well in every "tech" thread I post, I explain that they're simply gimmicks and unreliable as well as risky.
 
I have a question that has been troubling me for a while

how do you balance an aggressive subzero with a patient one? i play mostly aggressive when the matchup and conditions allow me but when i get results from laming out matchups, theres a clear dichotomy in which playstyle is better to use, at least for me.

very well said post, this is why i main sub, one of the best characters to show the capabilities of his player.
Its based on the character and the opponent and the situation. Take Sonya.. She cannot get up without meter.. Normally I run from her, but if I knock her down and she has no meter, then I make sure she never gets up.. unless I have a substantial lead, which at that point the main goal is to preserve a SUBSTANTIAL life lead.

Also.. a saying of mine vs a cornered Sonya is "if she has one bar, she has no bars" when you have a breaker. What this means is that even if she uses ex cartwheel while cornered, as long as you have a breaker you can disregard it. Even if it hits, you break the second hit which counts as an air breaker that leaves you at advantage, now she is knocked down and in the corner with no meter. You will build meter back through your pressure and hit her no matter how she tries to get get out, until she has meter again. If I notice the opponent is in panic mode after being knocked down with no meter, then I really abuse certain liberties that they are conceding.


So the REAL answer is.. there is no way to know when to do what.. it all varies case by case against every character, situation, and player. You know what to do when its time to do it, thats why Sub-Zero requires so much exp at high level.