New UMK3 Tier List? (update for 2012)

[AREZ God of War]

How is Kitana's hitbox not considered a positive? She is invulnerable to relaunches and among other nifty things. Also I don't believe Human Smoke is the safest character in the game. At a high level you will be forced into certain situations to rely on the teleport or face death. Kitana at the highest level does not need to rely on moves like square wave or fan lift, all she needs is proper use of instant aerial fan. You're right though, I should have lumped throw with jabs in the game and treat them together instead of separately. And instant aerial fan is one of the most ambiguous specials in the game, she can do it literally at any given time. It's more the player's fault if she's being predictable with it. I think Kitana can go punch for punch with any character in a jab war (even Kabal), hence why I believe she is a contender for the best jabs.

Had to make this short because I'm about to leave. Shock, we can discuss how gdlk Kitana is later at RB.

the only thing I want to add to the small hitbox part is that it only really effects NightWolf, U Sub and Lao since those 3 can not j.PS or SUJK-start a combo on her. IMO, her hitbox doesn't affect anyone else really.

 

[Shock]

the only thing I want to add to the small hitbox part is that it only really effects NightWolf, U Sub and Lao since those 3 can not j.PS or SUJK-start a combo on her. IMO, her hitbox doesn't affect anyone else really.

While that does hurt I'd say Kung Lao the most, it's not even that, there are times when the female ninja hit box makes run in combos whiff, I lost a tournament match to Julian Robinson due to that using Nightwolf vs his Kitana in 2004. Ran in, attempted axe combo, first hit whiff, he countered and that was it. Also, they aren't exactly easy to juggle, you have to compensate damage for completion vs female ninjas.

 

[AREZ God of War]

While that does hurt I'd say Kung Lao the most, it's not even that, there are times when the female ninja hit box makes run in combos whiff, I lost a tournament match to Julian Robinson due to that using Nightwolf vs his Kitana in 2004. Ran in, attempted axe combo, first hit whiff, he countered and that was it. Also, they aren't exactly easy to juggle, you have to compensate damage for completion vs female ninjas.

yea I agree....i even use different Ermac BnBs on the female ninjas/NW/Kano for that reason. Shit is kinda annoying w/ the all the different timing for aaHP-juggles.

 

[psycho4rent]

I think this discussion is worthless and pointless, cuz i think that only small amuont of players will respect this tier list. Most of the ordinary players from PSN, Xbox Live or mame with kaillera won't give a damn of this list.

 

[WayoftheFist]

I think this discussion is worthless and pointless, cuz i think that only small amuont of players will respect this tier list. Most of the ordinary players from PSN, Xbox Live or mame with kaillera won't give a damn of this list.

I was a kid and never had a clue how to play at a high level level in UMK3 (I did special moves, used uppercuts as my AA, and generally thought I was the shit because I won more than I lost against my friends who were kids like me and not exactly high level players) and I've found reading this discussion pretty fascinating. It makes me want to play it again actually. If the point of a tier list is to be accurate at the highest level a game can be played how is it not worthwhile to have this discussion even if some players don't respect it? Anyways I won't drag this into a tangent I just disagreed with this being a wasted effort when some players, as I doubt I'm the only one, find it interesting.

 

[RollTide8569]

I never understood why Kano was so high on the Tier list. I know he has a good sweep, good jump kick, can relaunch everyone and air throw. His balls (lmao) can catch ppl off guard sometimes, but kara jabbing shuts that down. His combos aren't that great IMO. I've tried to play as Kano over the past few years but he just doesn't offer anything for me I guess.

Also, I been trying to do his Choke Infinite and that shit is hard. My max is just 2 Chokes on Scorpion and Cyrax.

 

[Shock]

Kano usage went down from the 90s during the 2000s and next to nothing now, I talked to REO about this tonight. I would suggest that netplay factored in on the character and that's why you don't see many good Kano's. He's just harder to us in those conditions. If there were even 3 prominent Kano players, I doubt anyone would argue him being top 5.

 

[Nephrite]

I'm another scrubby UMK3 player, but I just want to add that I'm also enjoying reading this discussion (and the MKA one lol). The possibility of Kitana being better than she was thought to be brings a smile to my face. Go REO!

I watched some UMK3 videos before on YT and I remember being positively surprised with the amount of Kitana footage considering she wasn't in Top 10 on the tier list. I don't think I've ever seen high-level Kano actually, I guess Shock's post explains it.

Will there be a UMK3 tourney at NEC this year? I'm now dying to see REO play as Kitana in UMK3.

I miss good ol' ninja-Kitana, she's too "princessy" these days... T_T

 

[psycho4rent]

I was a kid and never had a clue how to play at a high level level in UMK3 (I did special moves, used uppercuts as my AA, and generally thought I was the shit because I won more than I lost against my friends who were kids like me and not exactly high level players) and I've found reading this discussion pretty fascinating. It makes me want to play it again actually. If the point of a tier list is to be accurate at the highest level a game can be played how is it not worthwhile to have this discussion even if some players don't respect it? Anyways I won't drag this into a tangent I just disagreed with this being a wasted effort when some players, as I doubt I'm the only one, find it interesting.

Good piont, but let's face it, most of the players don't bother of any tier lists, they 're just playing for fun.

 

[Juggs]

Kano usage went down from the 90s during the 2000s and next to nothing now, I talked to REO about this tonight. I would suggest that netplay factored in on the character and that's why you don't see many good Kano's. He's just harder to us in those conditions. If there were even 3 prominent Kano players, I doubt anyone would argue him being top 5.

I don't think that's the problem. I think Kano just isn't good enough so people don't use him. Or rather, there's 10+ better characters to use before you even look at Kano.

 

[Shock]

There should be a really good UMK3 tournament with at least 16 players, probably into the 20s, with 10 or so solid - top tier players.

And Kano is a devastating, entirely scientific character. You lose to a good Kano and you're like "What just happened?" I haven't seen many good Kano players in close to 10 years.

 

[nwo]

Kano is devastating and I don't even remember practicing with him. (im not saying I even got a good Kano)

 

[Remz]

Here is my opinion:

I really agree about Kitana being higher (top 3 or 5 IMO), she is so sick. Female ninjas are very underrated in this game, they are pretty good even without any special moves. Sonya and Sheeva should be much higher too. I've played Sheeva A LOT against the best players out there like Crazy Dominican (he taught me how to use her) and I think she is one of the most underrated character in this game along with Mileena and Jade. Juggs, in my experience, I don't think Sheeva struggles more against Kabal than most other characters, I think that the best counter for her is Kano (by far).

The most overrated characters IMO is Kung Lao and Reptile, if they are top 5, then I don't understand why usub is not there too (freeze, push to corner, then jab infinite).

 

[Mgo]

The most overrated characters IMO is Kung Lao and Reptile, if they are top 5

I agree whit that. Just beacause they have infinites, dont mean they have to be top 5.
Somebody link an UMK3 high level final tourney with one of the players using Kung Lao or Reptile, this will be a proof that both of they are top 5.

 

[Shock]

well a perfect example of characters who have infinites but aren't top 5, are Stryker and Shang Tsung. They have infinites that can be done without much effort but Shang's is more difficult, and tactically Stryker suffers. Characters like Reptile and Kung Lao have such solid tactics that they have a great chance to land their infinite. This is obvious by how often you see the infinite become available for them in game.

 

[ded]

just because you guys dont use lao and reptile in tournaments does not make them bad characters... put that much effort to learn how to use them, like you did with lets say kitana, and you will see.

 

[Lex]

the top 5 cant be changed period. there's no better utility char than kano, not sure why you would want to drop him in a new tier list unless new utility has been invented with other chars.

1.) Kabal - this cannot change
2.) Human Smoke - strongest defensive char
3.) Kung Lao - most mobile char
4.) Kano - best utility/balanced char
5.) Reptile - best mindfucker/zoner

kids playing with only jabs should stick with online play and make an online tier list.

as for lao, you better play as fast as you possibly can before you think about demoting him. you dont need the inf at all.

 

[ded]

as for lao, you better play as fast as you possibly can before you think about demoting him. you dont need the inf at all.

This says it all!

 

[Shock]

ded suggested someone make a visual tier chart comparable the MK9 one, I just threw this together as an example based on the match up chart we did a while back on UMK. I have the PSD saved and easy to edit if any changes are made.

http://www.ultimatemk.com/tempmatt/tierlist.png

 

[Shock]

Also REO, something we discussed last night, Nightwolf's HK combo starter (ie: the first "HK" of HK HK B+HK) is 7 frames after HK is pressed (not including the press) when at frame advantage.

Here is the shocker, everyone else is 6!

 

[Mgo]

To finish that...then Kung Lao,Reptile (both regardless infinites) and Kano are definitely better than Ermac and Nightwolf?

 

[Shock]

Tier lists don't necessarily define which character is better than another directly by the order itself, although at times the character above a particular character may only be there due to being better and might have a character 2 spots above them who is worse than they are in a direct comparison. On a match up based chart, you'll see more in terms of a character being placed above a counter character because they have more, better match ups then their counter.

If a pure science, "best usage" of every character chart was made, it would be more debated than the old predominantly tournament based Chicago tier list of the late 90s. Match up chart tier lists are generally the best, but we've never had the time and availability of players to sit down and run through characters they feel they have mastered, against an equal skill player.

Edit: added a border to character portraits to make it look not so bland, and made it a jpg http://www.ultimatemk.com/tempmatt/tierlist.jpg

 

[REO]

I don't understand how some characters like Kung Lao are regarded as top five. Some of the arguments you guys have put up in this thread just incline me to believe less. Does Kabal not make Kung Lao look like a bitch? That match up is terrible, it has to be at least 3-7 or worse. Aren't tier lists made on tournament viability? Kitana has no match ups that are worse than 4-6, that I am aware of. She stands a chance against any character. I also think bringing up Kung Lao infinite as a reason for him being top tier, is a moot point. Who the hell needs to jump in on Kung Lao to beat him? Characters like Kabal, Kitana, Nightwolf, etc. can beat him with a good ground game alone. Kung Lao's infinite is less practical than the corner jab infinite in top play. A Kitana will probably pull off the corner jab infinite to win a round 10 times before Kung Lao can pull off his infinite once.

Also REO, something we discussed last night, Nightwolf's HK combo starter (ie: the first "HK" of HK HK B+HK) is 7 frames after HK is pressed (not including the press) when at frame advantage.

Here is the shocker, everyone else is 6!

w1nter warz. Hold dat.

Edit: added a border to character portraits to make it look not so bland, and made it a jpg http://www.ultimatemk.com/tempmatt/tierlist.jpg

This list is great, I really like the layout and how it's done. However, there is no way Human Smoke is on the same level as Kabal. Kabal does not have one single losing match-up, or a tough one. I absolutely refuse to believe a character as ridiculous as Kabal is on even grounds with any other character in the game. Kabal should be placed at S+ for obvious reasons. He is far and beyond the number one spot.

 

[Shock]

Kabal Vs Smoke is evenly argued 1/3 in favor Kabal 1/3 even 1/3 in favor Smoke

BTW, take note the point values for Kabal and H Smoke on the match up chart, Kabal 155, Smoke 147. The next highest is 136 which is why I grouped them since there's an 11 point gap, never seen again down the list.

Edit: A way to compensate would be Kabal S+, H Smoke S, but since they are at worst a 5.5-4.5, I don't think it's unfair to put them in the same category. S+ would be a character with no bad, or even matchups, and in the case of a 6/4 Kabal/Smoke, he would be S+. S would be no losing matchups.

Counter Edit: I will go through and regroup based on some mathematical match up good/bad/even counts and come up with a fair way to rank them. It'll probably still be similar based on points.

 

[REO]

Kabal Vs Smoke is evenly argued 1/3 in favor Kabal 1/3 even 1/3 in favor Smoke

BTW, take note the point values for Kabal and H Smoke on the match up chart, Kabal 155, Smoke 147. The next highest is 136 which is why I grouped them since there's an 11 point gap, never seen again down the list.

Who the hell argues Human Smoke beats Kabal? Have they ever fought a Kabal who doesn't rely on random spins and jumping to win? Anyway, jokes aside, I'd like to see the points Kabal was given for his specific match ups.