Mortal Kombat (2011) Matchup Chart

[Konqrr]

God damn man, I swear you can't read. Never did I say tackle is so God like. Two times already you've put words in my mouth. You alter my words again and I'mma have to call you stupid for not reading probably, so read carefully. Now, please elaborate on this unstoppable 45% combo that you WILL hit me with, because that's all I do as a Noob player, stand back and spam tackle at any range cause I'm begging to get punished for being so predictable. *sarcasm* Lol I have no other options against the bitch, oh Lord. *teleport* Nor, can I go ahead and decide to be on the offensive. *Hello Noob's untapped potential*

All I said was that if I am able to move around, ie: not in block/hitstun or on the ground, and am 3/4 screen away from you or closer... IF you throw a shadow tackle, you WILL lose 45% of your life. This factor shuts down your shadow tackle when I have meter. That make sense?

 

[D. R.]

All I said was that if I am able to move around, ie: not in block/hitstun or on the ground, and am 3/4 screen away from you or closer... if you throw a shadow tackle, you WILL lose 45% of your life. This factor shuts down your shadow tackle when I have meter. That make sense?

Sure. lol No beef with ya btw. Noob vs. Kitana, 6-4 Kitana

Everything else, lets agree to disagree and move on.

I want to discuss the Raiden/ Noob match up, which I feel is 2-8 Raiden. Fuck this match up, seriously. The only way I can see it becoming "more balanced" is if Noob's tackle and/or slide recovers faster so he can at least block. Keep the same cooldown so he can't fill the screen up with shadows like it's Marvel, but he needs something. And like I said before, Raiden has no fear of Noob's corner game thanks to instant transmission. Ugh, Raiden's teleport really owns Noob.

:salty:

 

[Konqrr]

Sure. lol No beef with ya btw. Noob vs. Kitana, 6-4 Kitana

Everything else, lets agree to disagree and move on.

I want to discuss the Raiden/ Noob match up, which I feel is 2-8 Raiden. Fuck this match up, seriously. The only way I can see it becoming "more balanced" is if Noob's tackle and/or slide recovers faster so he can at least block. Keep the same cooldown so he can't fill the screen up with shadows like it's Marvel, but he needs something. And like I said before, Raiden has no fear of Noob's corner game thanks to instant transmission. Ugh, Raiden's teleport really owns Noob.

:salty:

That match really sucks for sure.

I think that Raiden's teleport is not one of his invincible wakeup moves. If this is the case, then you can throw meaty moves on him on wakeup and if he tries to teleport you will hit him. Of course, this opens up mindless superman wakeups, but we can always block and destroy him.

 

[lobo]

Sure. lol No beef with ya btw. Noob vs. Kitana, 6-4 Kitana

Everything else, lets agree to disagree and move on.

I want to discuss the Raiden/ Noob match up, which I feel is 2-8 Raiden. Fuck this match up, seriously. The only way I can see it becoming "more balanced" is if Noob's tackle and/or slide recovers faster so he can at least block. Keep the same cooldown so he can't fill the screen up with shadows like it's Marvel, but he needs something. And like I said before, Raiden has no fear of Noob's corner game thanks to instant transmission. Ugh, Raiden's teleport really owns Noob.

:salty:

have you tried not spamming shadow tackle? noob can punish teleport or jump away or even dash out of raiden's combo range if you aren't mindlessly throwing projectiles. maybe 6-4 raiden...maybe. raiden's teleport leaves him at severe disadvantage, not to mention shadow runners beat superman. i don't know noob's combo game well enough to make any solid assertions, but i'd guess it is 5-5 or 6-4. no way is it LOL 8-2. reading the past few posts...no offense but it seems that you are basing your entire noob game and matchup theory on spamming shadow tackle without even exploring what happens before and after it.

 

[D. R.]

That match really sucks for sure.

I think that Raiden's teleport is not one of his invincible wakeup moves. If this is the case, then you can throw meaty moves on him on wakeup and if he tries to teleport you will hit him. Of course, this opens up mindless superman wakeups, but we can always block and destroy him.

I've tried to stuff his teleport with Noob's upknee, low shadow, tackle, an early grab, f+33 and b+1214 strings (which are both very meaty strings and for example catch Scorpion's wake up teleport in the corner), and nothing works! He just teleports behind me without a care in the world. Lol I'm stuck baiting teleport to at least try and punish that. It's amazing how bad he shuts down Noob's offense with a single move. In the end, it merely boils down to character design.

 

[Konqrr]

I've tried to stuff his teleport with Noob's upknee, low shadow, tackle, an early grab, f+33 and b+1214 strings (which are both very meaty strings and for example catch Scorpion's wake up teleport in the corner), and nothing works! He just teleports behind me without a care in the world. Lol I'm stuck baiting teleport to at least try and punish that. It's amazing how bad he shuts down Noob's offense with a single move. In the end, it merely boils down to character design.

Damn, that sucks.

Raiden's teleport has always been too quick to recover. It should always be punishable by a fast move or special if you read it ... in this game, you have to be a jedi, but you can punish it with certain characters. In previous games, you couldn't punish if that's all your opponent did... especiallly online.

 

[lobo]

I've tried to stuff his teleport with Noob's upknee, low shadow, tackle, an early grab, f+33 and b+1214 strings (which are both very meaty strings and for example catch Scorpion's wake up teleport in the corner), and nothing works! He just teleports behind me without a care in the world. Lol I'm stuck baiting teleport to at least try and punish that. It's amazing how bad he shuts down Noob's offense with a single move. In the end, it merely boils down to character design.

if you wait until you see teleport and upward tackle...it will probably punish it or at least beat out a followup. if all else fails, fall back on d1 or d3, but of which will punish it easily for sure and give you more options.

 

[D. R.]

have you tried not spamming shadow tackle? noob can punish teleport or jump away or even dash out of raiden's combo range if you aren't mindlessly throwing projectiles. maybe 6-4 raiden...maybe. raiden's teleport leaves him at severe disadvantage, not to mention shadow runners beat superman. i don't know noob's combo game well enough to make any solid assertions, but i'd guess it is 5-5 or 6-4. no way is it LOL 8-2. reading the past few posts...no offense but it seems that you are basing your entire noob game and matchup theory on spamming shadow tackle without even exploring what happens before and after it.

Done talking out your ass? I'm far from a scrub with Noob, so take your assumptions somewhere else. It doesn't even boil down to "omg, I can't spam tackle," it's about the cooldown of the move and how teleport gives a free combo without Noob being able to block. Not to mention Noob's start up on his strings make punishing teleport a chore. I find myself just trying to uppercut him out of the recovery of the move or neutral jump punching if he goes straight into a string and those options are not foolproof.

 

[salvificblood]

have you tried not spamming shadow tackle? noob can punish teleport or jump away or even dash out of raiden's combo range if you aren't mindlessly throwing projectiles. maybe 6-4 raiden...maybe. raiden's teleport leaves him at severe disadvantage, not to mention shadow runners beat superman. i don't know noob's combo game well enough to make any solid assertions, but i'd guess it is 5-5 or 6-4. no way is it LOL 8-2. reading the past few posts...no offense but it seems that you are basing your entire noob game and matchup theory on spamming shadow tackle without even exploring what happens before and after it.

It's 7:3 in Raiden's favour, in my opinion.

The trouble for Noob in this matchup is that he can't zone safely. It's a bit like Konqrr was saying about the threat of a big combo from Kitana shutting down much of Noob's zoning. In this matchup, to do anything at all with Noob, you have to wait for Raiden. Obviously, if you try to zone him, he'll just teleport and go into his b312 on your recovery from shadow tackle/slide.

Noob's midrange game consists of f33 into db3, and the odd random throw followed by a shadow charge or b1214 and just straight up db3 spam. Apart from that, he's really limited once Raiden gets in on him. Raiden can mix up his approach with ex teleport, too, since he's not going to need the meter for breakers against Noob. It's basically a big guessing game for Noob, only, the best case scenario for Noob is that he guess right and doesn't take damage. Raiden takes life or meter every time Noob guesses incorrectly.

Edit: I see DR has touched on most of what I've just said already.

Noob is screwed in this matchup and I play Noob as a secondary to my Sub-Zero. I would big his chances up if I could.

 

[D. R.]

if you wait until you see teleport and upward tackle...it will probably punish it or at least beat out a followup. if all else fails, fall back on d1 or d3, but of which will punish it easily for sure and give you more options.

The thing with that is the crossup factor. If I misinput upknee and instead get tackle, he blocks, I eat superman or a combo. D+3 is decent, but it's a one trick pony. I'm doing 1% damage vs. Raiden's potential 10-35%+ damage? Where's the risk, really? He has Noob out of his element. I've tried all these facets of how to deal with the move and in the end, the best option is to turtle. And in MK, that does not fly at all.

 

[M2Dave]

The following is from my Kano Match Up Thread.

Kano Vs. Kung Lao
Match Up: 4 : 6 in favor of Kung Lao
Brief analysis: I think the Kung Lao match up must be one of Kano's most difficult match ups. Kung Lao is a balanced character in the sense that he is jack of all trades and does not have a particular weakness that can be exploited. Kano must keep Kung Lao away in my opinion. Should Kung Lao come close, expect to block a barrage of 1,1,2~Low Hat strings that Kano can no longer punish on block thanks to the added start up frames on the Up Ball. If the Low Hat connects up close, Kano has to block another string, and no one wants to deal with that. Kano's best chance is to zone Kung Lao at mid screen or further with the knives. Be aware of dive kicks and teleports, though. Be aware of his Low Hat too at larger distances because it has a great recovery. However, Kung Lao cannot toss projectiles as far as Kano can as there is a "cool down" until the hat re-appears on his head. Furthermore, no character, including Kano, can approach Kung Lao from the air. If you jump, you get hit by the Spin (d,f+1) against good players. It is as simple as that. Instead, check him on the ground with b+1,1,2, d+3, and d+1 to create space. Blocked Up Balls result in easy Spins, so think twice about using them on wake up. Kano is better off using wake up Choke albeit it can be crouched.

Kano Vs. Sub Zero
Match Up: 4 : 6 in favor of Sub Zero
Brief Analysis: Sub Zero can walk Kano to the corner and there is not much Kano can do about it. Aside from the X-Ray, Kano has no anti-Ice Clone tools because none of his enhanced special attacks have any armor. More or less, Kano has to kill Sub Zero before Sub Zero corners him. This is easier said than done, but keep in mind that Sub Zero cannot perform point blank Ice Clones. Another tremendous problem is that Sub Zero's slide goes underneath the knives. The Sub Zero player can slide underneath the knives on reaction at mid range, which now works better than ever thanks to the added recovery frames. Kano's best chance is to try and bait a slide by whiffing d+1s and d+3s and punish with a combo. Sub Zero's 2,2~Ice Ball punishes the Up Ball, but it has to be done quickly. The slide is an easy punish otherwise.

Kano vs. Cyber Sub Zero
Match Up: 4 : 6 in favor of Cyber Sub Zero
Brief Analysis: Kano can keep tossing knives on Cyber Sub full screen away. However, as soon as Cyber Sub approaches the mid screen, Kano has to stop. The far dive kick punishes any knife toss on reaction mid screen. The slide may also be used, but Cyber Sub players usually stick to the far dive kick as it is a much safer option. The problem is that Cyber Sub's forward dash is very quick, so keeping him full screen away is impossible. Kano's best chance is to try to bait a dive kick by whiffing d+1s and d+3s and punish with the straight ball. By the way, all dive kicks are punishable by the straight ball with the exception of the EX dive kick when it hits low. Furthermore, Cyber Sub's parry is another problem. It parries all of Kano's attacks except d+1, d+3, and d+4. Up close Cyber Sub rushes with 2,1 and 2,1,1+2 and getting away is not easy. He only punishes the Up Ball with the slide as far as I know because his jabs are rather slow.

 

[salvificblood]

And by the way, Raiden is also a tough matchup for Sub-Zero (nowhere near as bad as the Noob, Raiden match, though). I hope Kenshi destroys the bast*rd, lol.

 

[Konqrr]

The thing with that is the crossup factor. If I misinput upknee and instead get tackle, he blocks, I eat superman or a combo. D+3 is decent, but it's a one trick pony. I'm doing 1% damage vs. Raiden's potential 10-35%+ damage? Where's the risk, really? He has Noob out of his element. I've tried all these facets of how to deal with the move and in the end, the best option is to turtle. And in MK, that does not fly at all.

d3 doesn't even do 1%, have you ever tried to chip someone out (even if it hits) with d3? lol

This matchup reminds me of Sub vs Raiden in the early days of MKDC. Sub couldn't do shit without Raiden getting a free teleport into combo. It was later discovered that Sub has insane pressure and meter game up close so it wasn't so bad... but it was the same idea.

The main part of Noob's game is shadow throws, and Raiden shuts all of it down. If Noob wasn't so slow, he would have a decent option vs Raiden teleporting, but he doesn't.

I agree, 7-3 Raiden.

Can you get a free throw when Raiden teleports? Throws come out in 10 frames, but do you have to walk closer to get in range or can you just spam it? This might help Noob out if he gets a free throw, but then he has to let Raiden up for free to punish him with it...

 

[D. R.]

I agree, 7-3 Raiden.

Can you get a free throw when Raiden teleports? Throws come out in 10 frames, but do you have to walk closer to get in range or can you just spam it? This might help Noob out if he gets a free throw, but then he has to let Raiden up for free to punish him with it...

Hmm, I'm getting mixed results with it. Noob has great throw range, so it's connecting, sometimes. Sometimes, I mistime it and get supermaned, sometimes throw connects, other times Raiden can duck. I'll need to practice this more and see if it can be done 100% on reaction.

Again, I'll agree to disagree with all of you on the match up and go with 7-3 in Raiden's favor. My heart says otherwise, but lets keep it moving, shall we?

 

[ChaseRLewis]

Can you get a free throw when Raiden teleports? Throws come out in 10 frames, but do you have to walk closer to get in range or can you just spam it? ..

Frame data says he only has 8 frames of recovery once he appears on your opposite side, unless a patch changed it. Tom's guide is totally biased to lao and raiden saying shit is unsafe when they are the only 2 characters in the game that get any kind of reliable punish on it. 7 frame uppers get it also but if your characters doesn't have that all you have is d3 the move is totally f'ing broke. Don't forget he appears just far enough away from you that in my experience you have to step into throw.

 

[D. R.]

Frame data says he only has 8 frames of recovery once he appears on your opposite side, unless a patch changed it. Tom's guide is totally biased to lao and raiden saying shit is unsafe when they are the only 2 characters in the game that get any kind of reliable punish on it. 7 frame uppers get it also but if your characters doesn't have that all you have is d3 the move is totally f'ing broke. Don't forget he appears just far enough away from you that in my experience you have to step into throw.

I'm a man who loves his frame data since it provides irrefutable information. Well, there you have it. We still content on 7-3? I'm still liking 8-2 more and more, just saying.

 

[DrDogg]

Frame data says he only has 8 frames of recovery once he appears on your opposite side, unless a patch changed it. Tom's guide is totally biased to lao and raiden saying shit is unsafe when they are the only 2 characters in the game that get any kind of reliable punish on it. 7 frame uppers get it also but if your characters doesn't have that all you have is d3 the move is totally f'ing broke. Don't forget he appears just far enough away from you that in my experience you have to step into throw.

Where are you getting this frame data from? Also, how is it being calculated? Raiden's teleport is not invincible, so if whoever did the frame data didn't start counting the -8 until Raiden fully materializes on the opposite side, it's incorrect for this discussion. You can start your attack before Raiden fully materializes, especially if you're not blocking and looking for the teleport.

I'd guess you have ~12 frames to punish Raiden's teleport if you have good reactions and aren't blocking.

 

[D. R.]

Where are you getting this frame data from? Also, how is it being calculated? Raiden's teleport is not invincible, so if whoever did the frame data didn't start counting the -8 until Raiden fully materializes on the opposite side, it's incorrect for this discussion. You can start your attack before Raiden fully materializes, especially if you're not blocking and looking for the teleport.

I'd guess you have ~12 frames to punish Raiden's teleport if you have good reactions and aren't blocking.

Guess or know? I know you've been working on the frame data yourself, so I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on Raiden's teleport and legit options to deal with it.

 

[Konqrr]

Kitana's standing 2 is 12 frames and I know that I've hit him out of his teleport before. Whether or not the player was blocking or not, I don't know.

This definitely needs further testing. I don't like that most of the cast must resort to d1 or d3 when Raiden teleports.

 

[DrDogg]

Guess or know? I know you've been working on the frame data yourself, so I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on Raiden's teleport and legit options to deal with it.

It's just a guess, but an educated guess. lol

I know Kitana can punish Raiden's teleport with 2,1. I also know that Kitana's 2,1 is 11 frames. So it's at least -11.

Hmm... I could actually probably test that out right now and get some rough numbers on that. I've got about 20 minutes before I need to head out. Please hold...

 

[DrDogg]

Okay, sorry for the double post.

After about 5-10 min of testing, there's more to this than just the numbers. You have to take into account your character's position when Raiden teleports. If you happen to be facing the direction Raiden teleports to, you have at least 13 frames to hit Raiden. This situation usually occurs when Raiden teleports right after a cross up, or if either character is cornered, or if the Raiden is just spamming teleport over and over.

However, if you're not facing the same direction as Raiden, your character has to turn around before you can attack in the proper direction (or you need to use an attack that hits on both sides of your character -- Kung Lao Spin). In this situation, it looks like you have at least 11 frames to hit Raiden, and you have to have your timing down so that you start the attack as soon as your character turns around. I connected an 11-frame attack in this situation with relative ease.

I'll do more testing tomorrow to see if I can narrow it down a little more, but for now, you have at least 11 frames no matter what, and at least 13 frames in specific situations. Of course, the EX Teleport is really, really unsafe, but Raiden shouldn't really be using that anyway.

EDIT: Konqrr... Kitana's standing 2 is 9 frames according to Loymn's data. I can double check it later, but that's what he has listed for it.

EDIT 2: Okay, the Kitana frame data thread reads Kitana's standing 2 as 11 frames. I'm checking it right now, please hold.

EDIT 3: It is 11 frames. Not sure why I read it as 9 frames before. I've adjusted the above text to the proper numbers. I was using Kitana to test.

 

[ChaseRLewis]

Awesomeness....

Thanks for your hard work. I remember reading it somewhere on this site yesterday when I was looking around work and than a discussion about 7 frame uppers being guaranteed to punish it.

Happy to hear that was wrong. : ) so kitana has a single frame timed punisher...... to the lab!

 

[DrDogg]

Thanks for your hard work. I remember reading it somewhere on this sight yesterday when I was looking around work and than a discussion about 7 frame uppers being guaranteed to punish it. For all I know might be talking out their ass. Sweet jesus I hope i'm wrong, that move is annoying. I've never got a 21 punisher though when people go for cr. 1 so please, i hope what i read was wrong XD

Yeah, you have AT LEAST 11 frames to punish teleport in any situation (assuming you're not blocking when Raiden teleports). Hopefully that makes it a little easier to figure out proper punishment, and it should give most characters at least a ground combo string. The trick is to time your attack so you execute it as soon as your character turns around.

 

[ChaseRLewis]

Exactly how much is block lag (releasing block)? I've heard a couple numbers around 3 or 4 but never an exact number.

 

[M2Dave]

Where are you getting this frame data from? Also, how is it being calculated? Raiden's teleport is not invincible, so if whoever did the frame data didn't start counting the -8 until Raiden fully materializes on the opposite side, it's incorrect for this discussion. You can start your attack before Raiden fully materializes, especially if you're not blocking and looking for the teleport.

I'd guess you have ~12 frames to punish Raiden's teleport if you have good reactions and aren't blocking.

No offense, but it is easy to say "start your attack before Raiden fully materializes", but the attack has a tendancy not to track. You will be jabbing left yet Raiden is on the right side of the screen.

I have about 50 hours of off-line experience against a solid Raiden player. When Raiden's teleport is used wisely, you are not punishing it severely unless your name is Reptile or Kung Lao. To punish the teleport, you cannot touch the block button at any moment even before Raiden teleports. Yes, some of you may be hitting Raiden with Sub Zero's 2,2 or Kitana's 2, but the Raiden player is most likely not blocking and trying to throw or attack you. Most characters have to check Raiden with d+1 and d+3 or apply some kind of mind game that is character specific.