“If you don't sweep under Kitana's fans as a way to advance on her, you lose. Sweeps are not risky vs projectiles, they are actually a preferred method to avoid them. They are not risky in situations where they are unblockable, or even when Kitana is landing from a fan throw, particularly with Sonya, Kano, and Jax, or when she is running in after a fan throw. Kitana cannot easily cross up JK Jax or Kano on sweeps because of the air throws. Sonya's ducking LK creates some useful avoidance situations as well.”
Sweeps to avoid projectiles are not the context you used all your “sweeper” information in; I notice you did not quote it for this reason. A faster sweep recovery to dodge projectiles is not game changing, counter picking worthy-in my opinion. Sometimes when Kitana is jumping in (close range) to fan you actually want a slower sweeper so he can both dodge the fan as well as connect the sweep.
I’m going to quote myself here:
“The only times she should ever jump back and air fan is when the character has just teleported”-mistaKM
“And that is when you run in and sweep under the fan as soon as it comes out.”-Shock
And if I know your going to do that I will not throw the fan. I will just land. I will either block, dodge, or cross over jump you. Generally just block and either go into run jabs or bait a teleport. It’s a mix up, too much is happening in the game right now to simply explain it, as you say later in your post.
“Kitana's air game has to be drastically watered down vs them to never be in a situation where she could be hit by a TP, and if she isn't using air fans, she's only rushing. They can still hit her when she is right around midscreen so she doesn't necessarily have to jump back to be vulnerable, but that is besides the point. The correct usage of teleports to avoid Kitana's rush down is going to lead to air fans.”
Kitana would be stupid to jump forward a full screen away and throw an air fan to be vulnerable to a teleport. Her air game needs to be watered down like you said, so it’s a moot point. The correct usage of teleports to avoid Kitana’s rush down is going to lead to air fans? Maybe, but only when they teleport, and she jumps right on top of them, either going into a 50/50 throw, run jabs, or a fan. Even when she does throw the fan there, if the teleport WAS available (which it now isn’t) it isn’t punishable.
“Infinites are weighed very well on the list, as Shang's doesn't bring him out of the bottom tier but it's obviously not the only reason why he isn't dead last. Stryker's infinite and semi infinite properties are what hold his mid tier status. They are dependent on location and characters, meaning, there is a chance once you get to the corner, that it must break due to position, so in order for it to be a sure inf in the corner, you have have to be a certain distance from it to start. It's not like there's no reasoning or something.”
That is true but point blank, average Stryker gets similar (I would say more) damage as does and expert reptile per combo. I see myself as an expert Stryker player when it comes to that infinite. It is circumstantial, but the circumstances can be tweaked with a lot of practice into getting into the right scenario. Auto combo punch changes the position to exactly what you need, as does a relaunch. You can do one or the other on most of the characters in the game. At times where there too far back to have solid knowledge on where the character will end up in the corner in relation to where you are starting you are still going to get 2-3 juggles before you find out. 2-3 juggles = big time damage.
“It is not as controllable as say, Kung Lao's infinite, which has on sight corrective measures and that is what makes Kung's inf more dangerous. This means, Stryker doesn't always have an infinite available, and most of the time it becomes a big damage combo, which is fine, but then again, Sindel has some big damage combos too. Stryker's tactics are not abusable, they are not safe, and he can run jab only half the other characters when they are ducking and blocking. Bottom line, he requires a serious effort to win. His reward for his effort is better than someone like, Cyrax, which is part of why he is higher than Cryax, since this applies to many characters and not just counter scenarios. However, he doesn't have something the equivalent to Kung Lao's tactics or infinite management, which put him in the top tier.”
Once the inf is in place, your right. It’s not as controllable as Kung Lao’s infinite. But the opportunity will arise much more. A good lao isn’t randomly spinning much. When you really scout it you can aaSpin. You can connect corner auto combos to the spin on some characters, and you can deep jk or dive kick in the corner to spin. Other than that, the inf is not what lao should be relying on, but more as a bonus if the opportunity arises. His aahp to inf sucks (though more damage) , but the inf is also available there. With Stryker, though, every auto combo leads to his semi or full. He can also get it with a deep jk like lao, though he doesn’t even need the corner. His aaHP is one of the best and easiest in the game, compared to Lao’s aaHP to inf which is very difficult. Stryker will get more damage per match off his auto combo than Lao will per match with his inf. It is also much easier to timing and execution. Neither are very difficult, but Stryker’s is incredibly easy. I’m astonished that all the noobs on xbox don’t pick him.
Sindel’s 46% does not compare at all to Stryker’s 48% (not sure exactly) minimum
Stryker’s tactics not being “abusable” doesn’t really affect him much. Just because you can’t abuse a move doesn’t make it any less valuable. They are all punishable, but if you know what your doing (like you would if you were a reptile expert) you know when to use what move. Also, the baton dash is somewhat abusable close range, especially when they are ducking to use as a cross-up into auto combo attempt. If they block it close range it is a very difficult situation to punish because you should not see it coming. The window of time from realization to reaction is one that I’ve seen no one yet consistently counter (at close range), and I play with the best available.
When an auto combo leads to a semi or full infinite, and the infinite is extremely easy, I wouldn’t say that takes a lot of effort to use him. If you play at a high level and understand the mind games Stryker has many different mix ups and styles of play. You can straight rush, zone, or mix it up very well. IMO Stryker is much easier to use than reptile; what does everyone else think?
“There is a lot of exaggeration and dishonest evaluation in your match ups for Stryker, that and well netplay changes the game a lot no matter how much you deny it, not to mention, just not enough experience and knowledge against people offline. You say Jax owns Stryker, but then Stryker owns Kano. That doesn't make sense at all. You also say that Stryker is a good counter for male ninjas simply because of teleport baiting. This is all extremely vauge and simplistic.”
Exaggeration and dishonest evaluation? Maybe I’m just not as skilled as you and don’t have your superior knowledge. Please inform me where exactly I was dishonest and how exactly netplay changes all of the situations that I’m talking about. Prove me wrong, please, don’t just trash my credibility. Jax can zone Stryker very well with miss/ground pound to air throw. Kano can’t do this. If Stryker blocks a cannonball it’s an easy semi inf/inf. Kano is one of the characters that is extremely easy both cross screen and in the corner for Stryker. Does that make sense at all?
Ok, now you quoted this that apparently I said “"A good Stryker is definitely top 10"”
I never said that. Don’t misquote me. I said “Stryker should be in the top ten as well, in my opinion.”
There’s a big difference. If someone else said that, please, site the quote. Don’t just throw it in there with all my quotes to try and make me look bad. Stop trashing my credibility; that’s not gonna fly. I don’t do that to you, and I could just as easily but I’d be afraid you would call me out, like I do you. It would make me look bad.
Either way, you go on to mention this:
“But so is, a "good" Kitana, or a "good" Sonya. But then again, so are "good" versions of any of the existing top 10, and in many cases, even "average" versions of those characters are still top 10.”
This is irrelevant, unless you want to add that a “good” reptile isn’t even close to the top ten. Only an “expert” reptile would be. It’s a double edged sword and everyone that I have talked to thinks the tier list is whack because of where reptile is. He doesn’t deserve his spot because you have to be one of less than 10 people that I am aware of that is capable of doing his juggles, which still are on average about as good as Stryker’s. If you can do the juggles, though, he is a much better character than Stryker, I am aware of that. The definition of the tier list with the necessity of ease, and the lack of effort, does NOT match up to where reptile is in the tier list.
“Some of you put too much weight on combos, especially landing naked combos and hoping for punishers. That is obviously because of netplay since a lot of players will land combos that they wouldn't offline, putting more emphasis on combos online, since combos are memorization and repetition, not on the fly gameplay. You also apply bad, or nearly worst case scenarios of opponent characters to be something in favor of selected characters, when it has nothing to do with the actual character but yet enitrely the fault of the player in combination with a weakness of that opposing character. All of this of course, has to in one way or another be taken into account. Everyone who is punishable has that as a weakness, but the strength in the punishing character lies in their juggling.”
Once again, the netplay card! I play this game offline now and have in the past. Yes, I have less experience than you. Who’s to say I’m not better than you? Neither of us know because we can’t play offline right now. I might be a more credible source than you, have you ever considered that? Though, I bet I still have more offline experience than players such as 9.95 and many others that go to your tournaments. Would you trust their opinions? Besides that, I’m far more skilled than all the players who regularly attend your tournaments with the exception of maybe 3. 3 that I’m not far more skilled than. You can say I can’t judge because I wasn’t there, you can say netplay this, netplay that, but I’ve watched a few of those videos, and I know tactically when people aren’t doing things right. I know what I’m talking about in my posts, this is why people are agreeing with what I’m saying. It’s silly to trash everyone who plays online credibility just because they play online. I play with some of the best players, no matter what platform or connection (or lack thereof) is being used, and I am competitive. Stop trashing my credibility!
One of the major things I learned that helped me compete with top players is how to win tactically, not with combos. The “some of you” that you speak of does not include me. Look at my posts about kitana and her tactics and tell me where the naked-online-only-combo exists that is so powerful it should up her tier.
The second half of that paragraph is not true. I do not apply worse case scenarios, nor do I count on the fault of another player to back up my words. A teleport will be baited at any level, online or not. It’s part of the mind game, I understand the mind game, and that is why I am putting the characters where I, ME MYSELF AND I feel they should be. Other people can agree with me if they want, so far you and ded are the only ones who don’t. It’s just my opinion.
“Now you're going to say "But you mentioned countering Kitana air fans with teleport punches." and here's why I did.
One is an offensive tactic designed to create a reaction that sets up another tactic with multiple outcomes, also with less risk and less counter timing involved. In other words, there is a lot more going on in the match at that point. The other is a random guessing tactic with virtually no reward at all even if successful because the other character was and is simply able to block and there is no precalculation at all. In other words, countering normal, and sometimes necessary Kitana tactics is not the same as baiting a teleport out of a ninja. It is never necessary to teleport vs a neutral opponent, but on occasion, they get caught in what looks like it could be a safe teleport.”
I already have touched a little on this twice. I agree with you, there’s too much going on in the match.
So when I have a teleporter in the corner with Stryker, I do the pop up combo. I do this because it puts me in position to aahp if they jump, and block if they teleport. If they run at me (their best choice) I have to switch my game up. I am hoping though, that they will jump, or that they will teleport. Even the best players online do one or the other sometimes, and there’s my inf, the baited teleport/jump, and exactly why I am not relying on worse case scenarios for the opposition. I know what I’m talking about. I may not be right, but I know enough for you to not trash my credibility, and for us to be able to have a civil conversation on where the characters belong on the tier list.
There is no black and right answer to a lot of these discussions, it is a discussion, and therefore should be treated like one. Instead you act as if you do indeed know the right answer for all the questions/discussion topics. If that was the case there would be no need for discussion.
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