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UMK3 Tier list discussion

dreemernj

Ambassador
Hey guys, this is the tier list discussion and nobody gives a shit about you two playing each other. Stop posting it here.
 
Air fan + rushdown + cross-up jumps.
Not enough. That's pretty much ALL she has and doesn't raise her enough.

Weak Combos, No infinites, Fan lift Useless, Lame ducking lk and ducking hk. She can do one though. Rush. She holds a solid spot, she doesn't deserve to go up anymore. She's not better than Sonya OR Jax. They beat her both in rush down and in damage per combo.
 

darxyde

Apprentice
Not enough. That's pretty much ALL she has and doesn't raise her enough.

Weak Combos, No infinites, Fan lift Useless, Lame ducking lk and ducking hk. She can do one though. Rush. She holds a solid spot, she doesn't deserve to go up anymore. She's not better than Sonya OR Jax. They beat her both in rush down and in damage per combo.

Well she does have a nice 50% punisher too.

I personally think she is an amazing counter for both Stryker and Kung.
 

Shock

Administrator
Administrator
Founder
O.G.
Mileena also has a 50% punisher, a no limit, fast, spammable projectile, a juggle containment move with a 4 frametick start up (compare with Kabal's 3 tick start up for the spin), bigger ground combos than Kitana, and a popup with potential relaunch ability on 4 characters above her, and look where she is.

Take Sonya (sweeper, big ground combo to juggle, +D+LKs) and Jax (sweeper, big ground combo, air throw) for instance, characters directly above her, they are sweepers with a lot of options in general as characters that compliment their built-in counter to Kitana. Sindel in general is an excellent counter to Kitana on top of that. These characters are above Kitana for a reason. If she were to advance beyond them simply because she might give Ermac or Human Smoke some trouble if they don't reliably time counter aaTPs vs her air fans, that would be a rather unreasonable move. On top of that, Robot Smoke air throw and invisibility, Kano sweeper + air throw. Kung Lao and Nightwolf's main disadvantage vs her is the no JPS to combo at all. Four out of the 11 characters above her have tough matches vs her but not distinct win scenario advantages, if she did, then she might have those advantages vs other characters as well. Some would even suggest that Kitana, Stryker and Scorpion are all a rotatable high-mid tier.

Edit:

A good comparison here is Smoke vs Scorpion, as in why Scorpion is slightly lower than Kitana and Smoke is way higher. The ground starting combo potential alone puts Smoke above most other other characters but mixed with his TP and air throwing tactics and bait, it enables him to be that top tier character. Scorpion's low combo potential is terrible, and so are just about all his potential counters vs Kitana. He still, however, has Smoke's tactics which keeps him at least mid tier. Scorpoion and Kitana might both have 50% punishers, but Scorpion's 50% is not readily available vs Kitana, whereas Kitana's is vs Scorpion. His TP counter damage vs her air fan is about 25%, relying only on TPing vs her will lead to stray fan lifts, or getting caught by fan throws that are behind him. That means you have to score this counter 4 times in one round, while avoiding the fans in general, with Kitana having little to no fear of ever taking any big damage, and that is a lot of effort. Whereas with Human Smoke, he has no dependence on his big punishers vs her, or anyone, and he only has to counter a fan essentially twice in a round (plus 4% more or so, but it is possible to get her into the corner virtually anywhere you connect the TP for over 50%)
 

mistaKM

Kombatant
Mileena also has a 50% punisher, a no limit, fast, spammable projectile, a juggle containment move with a 4 frametick start up (compare with Kabal's 3 tick start up for the spin), bigger ground combos than Kitana, and a popup with potential relaunch ability on 4 characters above her, and look where she is.

Take Sonya (sweeper, big ground combo to juggle, +D+LKs) and Jax (sweeper, big ground combo, air throw) for instance, characters directly above her, they are sweepers with a lot of options in general as characters that compliment their built-in counter to Kitana. Sindel in general is an excellent counter to Kitana on top of that. These characters are above Kitana for a reason. If she were to advance beyond them simply because she might give Ermac or Human Smoke some trouble if they don't reliably time counter aaTPs vs her air fans, that would be a rather unreasonable move. On top of that, Robot Smoke air throw and invisibility, Kano sweeper + air throw. Kung Lao and Nightwolf's main disadvantage vs her is the no JPS to combo at all. Four out of the 11 characters above her have tough matches vs her but not distinct win scenario advantages, if she did, then she might have those advantages vs other characters as well. Some would even suggest that Kitana, Stryker and Scorpion are all a rotatable high-mid tier.


Sweeps are a risky move, and when people have "sweepers" they are running a risk most times they attempt it. If people can reliably counter them, as is very easy to do with Kitana (cross over jk or jk fan depending on circumstance) then the weight that is generally put in them drops. I've heard many times people say that kano is a good counter for nightwolf; this has not been my experience at all. Nightwolf is too fast! Dodge a sweep and its an easy 45%.

Kitana should never be in a position where a teleporter can hit her out of an air fan. She is a rush down character, not defensive. The only times she should ever jump back and air fan is when the character has just teleported, or if she is in the air already and sees a spear, using the fan as hangtime. She has an advantage over the teleporters because it is hard for them to get out of her rush down, and when she baits a teleport its an easy 50%.

She is also a counter for reptile. He has trouble getting out of her rush down just like the teleporters. The hang time on her fan allows her to bust his zoning game in half.

"Some would even suggest that Kitana, Stryker and Scorpion are all a rotatable high-mid tier"

I don't think Scorpion is even in the same league as Kitana and Stryker. Talk about matchups vs the top eleven characters with Stryker:

**Kabal - He's a very good counter for Kabal

**H Smoke - Works well against teleporters, somewhat easy to bait teleports.

Kung Lao - good match

**Kano - Owns Kano from my experience

**Ermac - Just like H Smoke

**Nightwolf - Gets owned by stryker

**Sindel - Good fight, edge to stryker. One blocked scream and its a pop up! 9/10 over 50 %, 4/10 over 65%, as is with all characters (minus Shang Tsung) when Stryker hits a knee lift. Bombs and Dash wreck her air game.

Jax - Owns stryker

Reptile - Owns stryker

**Sonya - Good fight, advantage to stryker though. She relies too hard on sweep to combo, he can zone her well and aahp her easily (as he can most, maybe the easiest aahp in the game).

Robot Smoke - Good fight, prolly advantage to robot.

In my opinion, Stryker has the advantage in 7 out of the top 11 match ups. He has the most damage potential (infinite) out of an auto combo in the game. He has three wake up moves, quick projectiles that come in both low or high varieties, and his knee seems to break through everything. How can he not be top ten? His infinite (off the knee lift) is also by far the easiest and most common to acheive in a game. The oppurtunity will occur way more often than Reptile's (off a knee lift as opposed to Reptile's punch start) and the average good Stryker will do more damage more often then the rare expert Reptile. Lao needs a spin or anti air, Nightwolf needs a corner and like one of 5 characters, Shang needs somebody that spends WAY too much time playing with Shang to acheive his infinite. The circumstances are extremely hard to set up, and after that it takes very, very difficult timing and spacing. Relaunchers (though may only be considered semi) are much, much harder than Strykers easy infinite.

For all the weight that is supposedly put on infinites, why none to Stryker? I've heard somone say, multiple times, that Shang can't be last on the teir list because he has an infinite. Why the fuck not? It's so difficult and cirmcumstantial. But if so, if you weigh that much in infinites (and how easy they are to acheive) then Styker would have to be higher than 14-15 or wherever you guys put him. He has the easiest high damage combos in the game, bar none, by far.

Stryker should be in the top ten as well, in my opinion.
 

darxyde

Apprentice
Once again MistaKM and myself are in complete agreement.

Good posts man.

I've been wondering for a while why Stryker is not ranked in the top 10. Even a decent Stryker can be very good cause he plays like NO OTHER character in the game.

Unless you have a good Kung, Kit, or (gasp) Jade or Mileena, you're NOT going to be rushing him down. That in itself is a huge advantage to the Stryker player.

Then you have the (supposedly) easy infinite. I personally suck at it, but I have been the victim of it many times. All it takes it ONE Knee-lift combo for a good player mid-screen and you're easily down 60% health and usually more.

But having said that, it's hard making a concrete list with numbers so I won't critisize the official one here except to say, a good Stryker is definately top 10.