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UMK3 Tier list discussion

Mileena can counter every freeze with her roll if the sub throws out a clone then he can easily get sai spammed bc he can't shoot back making his only choices ducking the sais or rushing down. Oh and there are so many times on female ninjas were I go for aaHP to freeze and fuck it up cus of the stupid female properties, but then again I think usub is a very weak character and mileena > usub

I could go on in my opinions and elaborate but I'm on my phone
 

Tim Static

Adminerator
Lead Moderator
Sorry to interrupt but I just have to know something.
@Shock, did you check all those facts about sheeva VS mileena in UMK3 before posting or did you know all that stuff already? If you knew it already then that is just mind boggling...
He has a jamma board from a UMK3 cab connected to his brain, me thinks ;)
 

Konqrr

MK11 Kabal = MK9 Kitana
Mileena can counter every freeze with her roll if the sub throws out a clone then he can easily get sai spammed bc he can't shoot back making his only choices ducking the sais or rushing down. Oh and there are so many times on female ninjas were I go for aaHP to freeze and fuck it up cus of the stupid female properties, but then again I think usub is a very weak character and mileena > usub

I could go on in my opinions and elaborate but I'm on my phone
usub has the ice shower also...and he is definitely better than mileena.
 

MKK hanzo

Moderator
Sorry to interrupt but I just have to know something.
@Shock, did you check all those facts about sheeva VS mileena in UMK3 before posting or did you know all that stuff already? If you knew it already then that is just mind boggling...
thats called kowledge and its gained when for example in this case, you play a game a lot.

@Shock: imo constant bombing prevents sektor to create anything. i ve never seen any missile lockdown. only thing you must do is run and combo him
 

MKK hanzo

Moderator
continue:

if you trade hits with the smart missile he is still losing dmge. its easy to karajab everythig sektor does from a distance but not cyrax cause of the net trade threat is always present. also bombs force him to jump/move, missiles can just be blocked/avoided.
 

MKK hanzo

Moderator
Konqrr:

gross av man. While he IS a better char, u sub have nothing that cant be punished by mileenas roll. just bait an ice clone and zone him. female ninjas runjabs are almost like kabals ones lol. if i have the time i ll elaborate this a bit more.

sorry for the 3 posts, right now im postin from my psp :p
 

skateblind

Apprentice
thats called kowledge and its gained when for example in this case, you play a game a lot.
I wasn't asking you, how can you answer a question for people when the question is directly related to them and therefore the only person who could actually answer it would be the person the question is posed to.

I wanted to know if Shock knew every single one of those facts about the characters or if he had to go into the game just to check a few things.

I love the way you misspelled knowledge after trying to put me down, I lol'd.
 

mistaKM

Kombatant
I wasn't asking you, how can you answer a question for people when the question is directly related to them and therefore the only person who could actually answer it would be the person the question is posed to.

I wanted to know if Shock knew every single one of those facts about the characters or if he had to go into the game just to check a few things.

I love the way you misspelled knowledge after trying to put me down, I lol'd.
Um, he never put you down. He told you the truth. When you play this game enough you just know things like that. You obviously aren't there yet since you think somone with that knowledge is that amazing. I can tell you that shock probably knew most, if not all, straight from his head. Maybe had to check if a few things were punsishable by the roll or whatever. Hanzo told you that and you just jumped on his back!

Don't make fun of people's spelling when they're talking to you in their second language. If I could speak spanish as well as he speaks english I would be extremely proud of myself. That's just mean.
 

MKK hanzo

Moderator
MistakeM you actually readed my mind and took the words off my Keyboard. Thx.

To Skateblid: I meant no offense man and in fact I was praising everyone who love playing games for good.

Oh ands Im typing from a Psp, try it, is a pain in the ass.
 

Shock

Administrator
Administrator
Founder
O.G.
The only things on that list I wasn't 100% sure of were the uppercut comparison and the standing HK missing her on a duck and block. I had to check them to be sure but I thought they were going into it. The reason why Mileena's normals beat most of Sheeva's specifically is because of Sheeva's sprite size, so say Sheeva does a standing HK from sweep distance, it'll miss Mileena, but Mileena's can still hit Sheeva. There might be times when they are done simultaneously that Sheeva's could hit Mileena first but they would have to be close enough that Sheeva's could hit Mileena if she wasn't moving or blocking.
 

Konqrr

MK11 Kabal = MK9 Kitana
@Konqrr:

gross av man. While he IS a better char, u sub have nothing that cant be punished by mileenas roll. just bait an ice clone and zone him. female ninjas runjabs are almost like kabals ones lol. if i have the time i ll elaborate this a bit more.

sorry for the 3 posts, right now im postin from my psp :p
Sorry, I didn't mean that uSub was better than Mileena in a head to head matchup, I honestly don't think he is, only that overall he is a better character as he has more favorable matchups than Mileena and isn't as difficult to use.
 

Shock

Administrator
Administrator
Founder
O.G.
Sub's ice clone tactics and overall better damage scenarios that don't need to be punishers put him in a better position and even though Mileena's roll punish applies to him, he doesn't have to be close to her to have her in trouble, like Sheeva does. In a head to head the match is very close, similar to Cyrax and Sektor, not exactly a toss up but these low tier characters more often require specialized players who can put forth the effort to win with them otherwise they don't stand a chance vs higher tier, ie: it takes a really impressive Cyrax to beat an average Human Smoke. P1 Sektor's missile cross fire definitely puts him over Cyrax, but P2 Sektor and Cyrax are close.
 
Why is is that so many scenarios when describing tier list placement is always 1 v 1. Sheeva Vs Mileena or Cyrax Vs Sektor. Correct me if I'm wrong but, I thought a tier list is where that character belongs as a whole in the game. That one character's placement with all of the others. We shouldn't just be comparing Mileena and Sheeva, but Mileena and everyone in 1 V 1 scenarios.

Mileena V Kabal

Mileena V H Smoke

Mileena V Kung

ect.


I say this because I believe Sheeva should be higher. Sure, Mileena has the clear advantage over Sheeva, but Mileena blows against more than half of everyone else, while Sheeva can hold her own pretty well. Mileena has no infinites, can hardly relaunch, and 2 of her 3 specials suck. The roll is only Decent. Sai's can't be spammed nearly as well as in MK 2 because of Run, and her drop in kick is a once a game Move. Sure she has her decent Female Ninja Properties and everything that comes with that but that's still not too impressive. Mileena V Everyone else would not fare well for her. Sheeva can stand her own though. Great Standing HK, Good JK, Decent Sweep and Run Jabs. Her Stomp is great and the fireball is alright. Amazing Throw. She has alot going for her, not to mention every throw on a Male Ninja leads to an uppercut.

I understand Cyrax and Shang can't be last because of the anywhere infinites, and that's perfectly understndable, and I don't really see how Defensive Lui is but whatever. Mileena is a perfect contender to be last. Sheeva belongs right under Unsub IMO. At a Solid Bottom Mid, High Low tier.
 

Shock

Administrator
Administrator
Founder
O.G.
The reason why they are being directly compared is because they are so close to eachother on the list. In the case of Mileena and Sheeva, they are stacked onto eachother, for them it'd have to come down to that direct comparison. All the things ABC listed for Sheeva are either vague or on some level, player to player rationalizing.

Sheeva has no truly practical, abusable, rewarding or outstanding tactics, or easy big damage punishers that work vs everyone, or even most characters, no containment, a high projectile, a slow easily snuffable roundhouse, in essence, all of her moves lack usefulness, she is vulnerable to many combos that most of, if not at times, all other characters are not. The only thing that stands out about Sheeva is...her 42% ground combo, and her tough but reliable 44% ground to juggle combo, which, doesn't work on everyone.

With Shang and Cyrax unable to be last due to their mid screen infinites and Shang's ability to morph), Classic Sub's relaunch vs Sheeva being extremely easy and he has two containments, Sektor who can also relaunch her, not withstanding his tactics in general, and Mileena obviously outmatches her, where does she have to go? How could she go above all of them? Is Sheeva honestly at all better or more effective vs the entire remainder of the cast than all of those characters that she should be above those characters? She's not measurably better at all. This is a huge problem with netplay, as it alters character performance, dumbing down the tactical characters when they are extremely reliable and effective offline, and once again, this is not an online tier list. Characters like Kano and Reptile get the shaft because some of you think they are too hard to use. Just because not a lot of people use them online, doesn't mean people didn't use them ever. Most of you are completely unaware of the original scene and that cannot be discounted, otherwise again, this would be an online based tier list.

Get your skills up, get some tournaments together in your area and stop thinking that netplay is serious. This isn't online and if you're never going to play offline, then stop arguing about this tier list. This is a list that is comprised of the sum of knowledge of playing this game since before some of you were fully potty trained until now, and no one or group who plays online has presented an argument or revealed tactics, strats and combos to change how any character is played in years. I've played vs and seen better Sheevas than CD's in person before I met or knew CD existed, and even if he had the best Sheeva ever, his usage of her alone doesn't change her tier list spot.

Liu Kang is a fortress by the by.
 
Why is is that so many scenarios when describing tier list placement is always 1 v 1. Sheeva Vs Mileena or Cyrax Vs Sektor. Correct me if I'm wrong but, I thought a tier list is where that character belongs as a whole in the game. That one character's placement with all of the others. We shouldn't just be comparing Mileena and Sheeva, but Mileena and everyone in 1 V 1 scenarios.

Mileena V Kabal

Mileena V H Smoke

Mileena V Kung

ect.


I say this because I believe Sheeva should be higher. Sure, Mileena has the clear advantage over Sheeva, but Mileena blows against more than half of everyone else, while Sheeva can hold her own pretty well. Mileena has no infinites, can hardly relaunch, and 2 of her 3 specials suck. The roll is only Decent. Sai's can't be spammed nearly as well as in MK 2 because of Run, and her drop in kick is a once a game Move. Sure she has her decent Female Ninja Properties and everything that comes with that but that's still not too impressive. Mileena V Everyone else would not fare well for her. Sheeva can stand her own though. Great Standing HK, Good JK, Decent Sweep and Run Jabs. Her Stomp is great and the fireball is alright. Amazing Throw. She has alot going for her, not to mention every throw on a Male Ninja leads to an uppercut.

I understand Cyrax and Shang can't be last because of the anywhere infinites, and that's perfectly understndable, and I don't really see how Defensive Lui is but whatever. Mileena is a perfect contender to be last. Sheeva belongs right under Unsub IMO. At a Solid Bottom Mid, High Low tier.
I agree with the first paragraph here. We can talk about individual matchups all we want, but they don't make hardly any difference in tier placement. I also agree that Mileena could very well be ranked absolute bottom. She has no really solid moves she can use against most of the cast, and when she does manage to get in, she has trouble dealing decent damage. I wouldn't put Sheeva much higher than Mileena, though, Sheeva still has a LOT of crappy matchups. Sektor should probably be above Cyrax because his matchups as a whole aren't all that bad. Cyrax has several matchups that are absurdly bad, but Sektor seems to have a fighting chance against most everyone.
 
The reason why they are being directly compared is because they are so close to eachother on the list. In the case of Mileena and Sheeva, they are stacked onto eachother, for them it'd have to come down to that direct comparison. All the things ABC listed for Sheeva are either vague or on some level, player to player rationalizing.

Sheeva has no truly practical, abusable, rewarding or outstanding tactics, or easy big damage punishers that work vs everyone, or even most characters, no containment, a high projectile, a slow easily snuffable roundhouse, in essence, all of her moves lack usefulness, she is vulnerable to many combos that most of, if not at times, all other characters are not. The only thing that stands out about Sheeva is...her 42% ground combo, and her tough but reliable 44% ground to juggle combo, which, doesn't work on everyone.

With Shang and Cyrax unable to be last due to their mid screen infinites and Shang's ability to morph), Classic Sub's relaunch vs Sheeva being extremely easy and he has two containments, Sektor who can also relaunch her, not withstanding his tactics in general, and Mileena obviously outmatches her, where does she have to go? How could she go above all of them? Is Sheeva honestly at all better or more effective vs the entire remainder of the cast than all of those characters that she should be above those characters? She's not measurably better at all. This is a huge problem with netplay, as it alters character performance, dumbing down the tactical characters when they are extremely reliable and effective offline, and once again, this is not an online tier list. Characters like Kano and Reptile get the shaft because some of you think they are too hard to use. Just because not a lot of people use them online, doesn't mean people didn't use them ever. Most of you are completely unaware of the original scene and that cannot be discounted, otherwise again, this would be an online based tier list.

Get your skills up, get some tournaments together in your area and stop thinking that netplay is serious. This isn't online and if you're never going to play offline, then stop arguing about this tier list. This is a list that is comprised of the sum of knowledge of playing this game since before some of you were fully potty trained until now, and no one or group who plays online has presented an argument or revealed tactics, strats and combos to change how any character is played in years. I've played vs and seen better Sheevas than CD's in person before I met or knew CD existed, and even if he had the best Sheeva ever, his usage of her alone doesn't change her tier list spot.

Liu Kang is a fortress by the by.
This makes sense, if I were to move Sheeva, I'd switch her with Mileena. They're really close.
 

Shock

Administrator
Administrator
Founder
O.G.
That's why I used the direct comparison. Sheeva's only technical claim is Mileena's spot, and that's it, but, when you break it down, Mileena has way more distinct and mathematical advantages so there's no reason to rank Sheeva above her on a tier list.

Mileena's roll is extremely undervalued by you guys I've noticed, it has 1 more tick of start up than Kabal's spin, and on top of that it has a huge window from which it can be performed after the motion is done, meaning, it can look like Mileena is standing there, she can literally do B B D, stand up, throw two jabs, then roll. I'm going to bet that many people using Mileena online are just not good with her at all, not to say that this even requires a level of overall mastery, but just, people who do blockable specials constantly, or don't know much of anything about a character cannot be held as examples of that character.

Sheeva, like Mileena, is a character that is only going to perform well in the hands of an overall good player who has chosen to master that character, like CD. And to be honest, I beat a lot of people with her too online since I random select and get her A LOT, but it is obvious most players online just don't know how to play against her, and not to say they could never know, but she's not picked nearly enough for many players to develope strats against her. Mileena has aspects about her as a character that go beyond the realm of run jabs, good JK, good HK "nifty teleport stomp" etc. Kabal and H Smoke are examples of a characters who are dangerous even in the hands of an average player and that is why a tier list is a tier list.
 
I play a lot offline and just bc a lot of people on here play online doesn't mean there opinions are worthless

Oh and how does Usubs new infinite help him out?

Gokuren has a vid of a few vollys on youtube and ded apparently got a 100% with it
 

Shock

Administrator
Administrator
Founder
O.G.
ded sent me the video of 100% on robots when he completed it. It doesn't technically help him out at all considering he's already above 3 of the 5 characters it works on, and it's nearly impossible to set up or complete, ie: risk over reward. It doesn't pose enough of a threat vs Robot Smoke either.
 

MKK hanzo

Moderator
Shock: i was about to say something like that. it seems like the comparisons to a lot of ppl is "throw a special and see what happens". i dont see ppl posting interesting scenarios other than "mileena s sai is countered by sheeva s telestomp" or simpler yet.

imo she could never be last.
 

Shock

Administrator
Administrator
Founder
O.G.
Yeah I have been sort of hinting around the extremely simplistic rationalization behind the tier concepts, and the personal preferences, or "so and so uses this character so that character should be higher". I mean, I wouldn't post a tier list on a site I didn't believe in or understand the mechanics behind it. It just doesn't cut it. If someone found an easy infinite for a character that worked on say, 3 character above that character, then the new infinite would move that character up. But just describing tactics that have been known for years and simply saying "If you use them perfectly" doesn't cut it. I mean, does anyone think they are saying NEW things here that haven't been accounted for? Another problem I see is that older and obselete tactics work online because of the lower reaction time and this also exists in Capcom games online as well, I know since I play them. These tactics that were popular when the games were out maybe a year or 18 months, were eventually disrcarded because they no longer worked since the average player's skill increased.
 

MKK hanzo

Moderator
sadly there is a certain level that can be achieved online and that its not high or at least not as good as offline.

READ PPL im not trying to offend anyone, just based on facts. its like the arcade stick vs pad debate lol.
 

Konqrr

MK11 Kabal = MK9 Kitana
Liu can be played both ways, but vs characters who play the distance game (non teleporters), Liu Kang has the upper hand on them.

Ex: Full screen Low Fireballs to bait jumping and use the ^_^ Roundhouse of God lol
Great punishers and corner combos.

He's also got a great autocombo that you can stop almost anywhere and continue rushdown. His knee lift is good too.

It's funny how I've been playing mostly Liu lately and it makes people really mad.
"Pick someone else [ban incoming]" - "I'm going to boot you if you pick him again" LOL

Another thing, if you block a jump kick standing up, you can hit them with they bicycle kick before they land!