UMK3 Tier list discussion

[Dreamcatcher]

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say Sektor is last.

He's a robot so hes very easy to juggle and re-launch, he has crappy damage combos, rush down is average.

He can spam those missles but that tactic is pretty easy to overcome.

There's just not anything special about him IMO.

Agree to all except he has a decent punisher/aaHP juggle.

 

[Not II ROFL II RIP]

kano is overrated compared to nightwolf and ermac. I think two players of equal skill the nightwolf/ermac would beat the kano player

 

[O Juggernaut 0]

kano is overrated compared to nightwolf and ermac. I think two players of equal skill the nightwolf/ermac would beat the kano player

You haven't played very many good Kano's then. There's alot more people who use Ermac, and Nightwolf than Kano. I have seen very few good Kano players on XBL.

It all depends on who's vs who. Ermac vs Kano is a very close match up. Nightwolf vs Kano, Kano has the edge. The reason is with Nightwolf, he has limited stuff that is of use to him. Like his auto-combo, and shoulder rush. Your always looking for a good Nightwolf to utilize these two qualities. With Kano, he has more of a variety and a better rush game than Nightwolf. Also, Kano's sweep can almost nullify a rush from Nightwolf. And the hit boxes with Kano against someone are big. It's very hard to aa a Kano!

 

[FILER]

The only good Kano players I've seen are GOOD players in general. I've never felt like I lost to a Kano because of the skill set of the character, but rather the skill set of the player.

 

[Shock]

360 gamepad's limitation is an example of why you guys would think that Kano isn't such a good character, this tier list is meant to be applied to the arcade version, meaning an arcade set up, not XBL which can change things a lot and I'm not going to make an XBL list or modify this list for XBL. He's a very tactical character, but he does have some decent combos. Kano is one of the few currently specialist characters that gets ranked up high, mostly because he was used a lot more when the game reached in peak in the late 90s. That's not to say this list is based entirely on the 90s tournament scene, but not enough has changed since then to move him, however Reptile is pressuring to take over his spot. Kano can also relaunch every character btw. But regardless, all the characters mentioned are simply in the top tier, which means you will see a power struggle between characters more closely placed.

 

[Rockzilla220]

Kano sucks? Awesome.

 

[mistaKM]

You haven't played very many good Kano's then. There's alot more people who use Ermac, and Nightwolf than Kano. I have seen very few good Kano players on XBL.

It all depends on who's vs who. Ermac vs Kano is a very close match up. Nightwolf vs Kano, Kano has the edge. The reason is with Nightwolf, he has limited stuff that is of use to him. Like his auto-combo, and shoulder rush. Your always looking for a good Nightwolf to utilize these two qualities. With Kano, he has more of a variety and a better rush game than Nightwolf. Also, Kano's sweep can almost nullify a rush from Nightwolf. And the hit boxes with Kano against someone are big. It's very hard to aa a Kano!

I have to disagree with that. I believe nightwolf has a WAY better rush game. Best in the game minus kabal and kitana. That's been my experience, anyways.

 

[darxyde]

I think one of Kano's best traits is his anti rush-down. His sweep and cannonball can end lp spam very quickly.

 

[mistaKM]

That's a very good point, darx.

 

[skateblind]

I agree that Nightwolf has a better rush game, even though it seems to me he has limited options when doing so, he cant zone as well as Kano and cant throw in the air like Kano.

The small amount of points he gets for a better rush game is completely over shadowed by all the different options Kano has. Kano can zone better and play a better defensive game if he wanted to. He can stop rushes pretty easily compared to nightwolf and nearly all his special moves are usefull at high level play. Against a good player, nightwolfs reflection is useless and his shoulder bash gets less and less useful the better the opponent.

 

[mistaKM]

I think you make a couple good points. A few I'm not so sure about.

"I agree that Nightwolf has a better rush game, even though it seems to me he has limited options when doing so,"

Limited? I suppose I can see what your saying, but I don't think it's justified calling one of the best rushers in the game "limited" when it comes to his rushing. Sweep, jk, cross over, shoulder ram are your options when you're not jabbing or comboing.

"he cant zone as well as Kano and cant throw in the air like Kano. "

That's very true, but the discussion was (i thought) on who had the better rush game. In the overall teir list discussion you're correct, though.

"The small amount of points he gets for a better rush game is completely over shadowed by all the different options Kano has"

K so I guess we're talking about more than just rushing now. You're mistaken though, if you think nightwolf's rush only gets him a "small amount of points" because it gives him massive points! You're also looking at nw a little too basic I think, he's not "rush rush rush rush rush rush" at all times no matter what. His should dash and axe pretty much skunk all jump attacks on him (axe is one of the better defenses for cross over jumps in the game).

"Kano can zone better and play a better defensive game if he wanted to"

It's not if he wants to, it's simply that he does. I really like what darx said, that one of his best aspects is his rush defense. He does seem to just blow them out like a candle at times.

"all his special moves are usefull at high level play."

Utilizing all of a characters special moves is not important at all. Kitana's fan lift, kabal's rip saw, sindel's flight, those are just a few. Many moves are only useful in very specific circumstances as well (like corner combos) and are not really useful in basic gameplay. Kano's baby shaker is one of those, in my opinion. You're right though, he does have several useful moves.

"Against a good player, nightwolfs reflection is useless and his shoulder bash gets less and less useful the better the opponent."

Nw's reflection is one of those useless moves in high level play. It never made or broke nw's teir. His shoulder dash is extremely important in all level's of play, including high level. In the way your looking at it, kano's cannon balls can be looked at the same, because they are blocked more if abused at a high level, but are more punishable, in more circumstances, than nw's shoulder.

 

[skateblind]

Oops, sorry for jumping in and going off the rushing discussion. Im starting to see why NW can be so good, I only ever use his axe in combos or against jumpers, I dont have the skills/awareness yet to do it against cross-ups.

Kanos cannon ball is definetly more punishable than NW's shoulder, since a blocked shoulder is a bit more difficult to counter, so I have to agree with you there.

As for his sweep, jk, cross-ups and shoulder, I think kano beats him on nearly all of those, he has a longer sweep, I presume an air throw if timed correctly, beats a JK all the time, so thats better too and his shoulder pails in comparison to Kanos 2 cannon balls and air throw when defending attacks from the air. Now that I think of it, the cannon balls are not really rush material since they leave you further way from the opponent than NW's shoulder.

My comment on all his moves being usefull, unlike NW's, was completely wrong, I rectract that one for sure.

I seriously need to learn how to play with these 2 characters properly, my strat is starting to seem really bad when I read your post. Thank you for opening my eyes.

 

[O Juggernaut 0]

Utilizing all of a characters special moves is not important at all..

Yeah this isn't street fighter

And when I made my comment I was talking about Kano vs NW in which Kano has the advantage.

 

[mistaKM]

"Oops, sorry for jumping in and going off the rushing discussion. Im starting to see why NW can be so good, I only ever use his axe in combos or against jumpers, I dont have the skills/awareness yet to do it against cross-ups."

Dude just try the axe on cross ups. You have like a gigantic window of oppurtunity to hit the axe. Even if they land and start a move, the axe still usually hits them. It's very, very easy.

"Kanos cannon ball is definetly more punishable than NW's shoulder, since a blocked shoulder is a bit more difficult to counter, so I have to agree with you there."

A blocked shoulder dash actually leaves you in a position to be rushed/combo'd. You really don't want to block the dash, rather duck/sweep it. That is one of the reasons it's so dangerous. Though against stryker this is completely different...duck, block, inf ftw.

"As for his sweep, jk, cross-ups and shoulder, I think kano beats him on nearly all of those,"

I wasn't aware we were talking about a head to head match up. Kano's rush is not as good as nw, hands down. His jk and sweep are better than nw's that is known. I was talking about the sweep, jk, cross as option when rushing (especially finishing/retrying the rush) with nw. He's just not limitated like you said, he has options!


"his shoulder pails in comparison to Kanos 2 cannon balls and air throw when defending attacks from the air."

If Kano had a shoulder dash I would use it in almost every jumping situation before I used the vertical cannon ball or the air throw. You're underestimating the dash as anti air, it is extremely easy and effective. With nw's speed, after a shoulder dash you are right on top of the opponent.

 

[skateblind]

I meant just tier levels, not a head to head. I will start using his dash as an anti-air and will try his axe more often when getting crossed-up. BTW, NW is in my top 3 favourite characters.
I hate kano on the 360 because of the pad, I need a stick to learn him properly, so I dont know what it is like fighting with him at a high level, therefore I should stay out of this current discussion, its starting to be blinding obvious I don't know those two as well as I should. Ill be back when you guys start on U-sub

 

[mistaKM]

If you think u sub should be higher or lower, feel free to tell us why.

 

[skateblind]

I just think that he is better than most people think, in the right hands he can pressure kitana and sonya, who are both above him in the tier list, which I think is completely wrong. They are quicker but that is not sub-zero's game, he just has to sit back and counter everything they do, I've started beating players who are better than me when I am sub-zero and they are either kitana, sonya or the annoying teleporter scorpion.

He can force you to play his game by zoning well or even baiting by turtling and doing ice clones. I think remember reading somewhere that he can even interupt some combos with his slide. If you know your opponents patterns then they don't stand a chance against him since the ice shower can catch even the most trickiest of players.

His biggest disadvantage is his speed, but Ive seen some players rush like nothing you have seen before, they can pin you down in the corner with almost no possibility of getting out without being frozen. Sliding out of the corner from punching more than 3 times is a great tactic I've seen by said players, since you can cancel the push back into an ice clone to keep the player pinned down.

 

[Shock]

It requires so much more effort to be better with Sub, that is why he isn't ranked higher than those mentioned. That's something people don't understand about tier lists, the efficiency factor. It's basically 50% of the overal rating but at the same time a result of the two other major factors, which are also combined of many other factors that either exist for that character, or don't. You have tactics and combos which are like 30% and 20% but in some cases even characters with low damage combos have simple repetitive tactics that secure a mid tier status, and then whether or not the combination of the two is effective/easy/rewarding/not risky. If a character has good combos only when an enormous amount of effort and set up is required, and then also has good tactics only when they are used 100% perfect all the time, that character is inefficient, and therefore not ranked high.

Look at Cyrax. He has some tricky tactics and potentially huge damage, but the amount of work put into it is astronomical. In order to break 50% with him you have to really push his limits and it's not always possible, and his tactics are extremely dependent on zoning and player screen location, where as someone like H Smoke, essentially anything he does, JP, spear, KNEE LIFT - leads to 50%+. On top of that, the air throw and teleport punch are EASY tactical moves that blow him by the mid tier and most of the top tier. If he didn't have the air throw, he'd be above or even below Ermac.

 

[abc ur dead0]

I think Sub should be right under Sonya on the tier list. He is very difficult to use at high levels, but not THAT difficult. His combos don't do an incredible amount of damage per combo, but with so many options to freeze the opponent, including ice clone, you either get an easy 37% or 39% depending on whether they're in the air or on the ground. You may say that that's not to much, but it's very easy to get frozen, and it's promised that if your frozen your going to take some damage. Even more so if the other person is in the corner. Very very EASY 50% in the corner. If you do the ground combo, the slide in the corner does (correct me if I'm wrong) does around 41% which is not bad at all. 1/3 or so of your health gone every time you get frozen is decent. He's also very hard to hit because of the ice clone and how it pushes sub back every time you use it Decent Rub jabs, Very Solid uppercut, good JK. I think sub should be 12th on the list and Scorp, Stryker, and Kitana should all be moved down a spot. For a game based around rush downs, one of the best defensive characters should get moved a little bit higher.

 

[Shock]

That means 3 BIG mistakes to win with him, vs 2 normal mistakes, or even 2 tiny mistakes. The only reason Sub is beyond the bottom 4 is because of his useful tactics. Also remember the ice clone has a very long recharge time. It annoys me when I see players who attempt to do the ice clone when it's just not available, but if you know how much time he has between uses, you can use that against Sub, same with Kitana's fan throw except for that, the time limit is smaller, and even the teleport punch, which is yet a smaller window than that.

 

[skateblind]

If your saying that ease of use is a part of the way the tier list is put together than you should also consider counter characters and possibly have a tier list that rates each character against each other. That would be the most accurate way of showing how good a character is compared to the rest. You could add up how many counters the character has and use that when considering their tier level.

A quick question, when the tier list was made, did you guys think about the characters being used perfectly to every extent or did you consider them in the hands of an actual human that does make mistakes?
I hope that makes sense...

 

[abc ur dead0]

That means 3 BIG mistakes to win with him, vs 2 normal mistakes, or even 2 tiny mistakes. The only reason Sub is beyond the bottom 4 is because of his useful tactics. Also remember the ice clone has a very long recharge time. It annoys me when I see players who attempt to do the ice clone when it's just not available, but if you know how much time he has between uses, you can use that against Sub, same with Kitana's fan throw except for that, the time limit is smaller, and even the teleport punch, which is yet a smaller window than that.

I don't think Sub compares to H Smoke, Reptile, or any other Top tier character, I just think for the reasons I specified that he should be moved up further.

The Ice clone has a longer recharge time, but you can still use other moves in between, Deep Freeze, Ice Shower, Slide, or just rush down. He still has a large arsenal of tactics that can be used other than the clone. A deep freeze can also freeze them in the air, as can an ice shower.

Also, he is primarily a defensive based character, but he can also be used as an offensive based character, and it usually throws the other player off when they do play an offensive Unsub.

Conclusively, I don't think Unsub is Top tier. I do think he is better than Stryker, Kitana, and Scorp. I draw the line at Sonya though.

 

[O Juggernaut 0]

I don't think Sub compares to H Smoke, Reptile, or any other Top tier character, I just think for the reasons I specified that he should be moved up further.

The Ice clone has a longer recharge time, but you can still use other moves in between, Deep Freeze, Ice Shower, Slide, or just rush down. He still has a large arsenal of tactics that can be used other than the clone. A deep freeze can also freeze them in the air, as can an ice shower.

Also, he is primarily a defensive based character, but he can also be used as an offensive based character, and it usually throws the other player off when they do play an offensive Unsub.

Conclusively, I don't think Unsub is Top tier. I do think he is better than Stryker, Kitana, and Scorp. I draw the line at Sonya though.

LOL @ better than Stryker and Kitana. The last time I lost to U-Sub legitley was when I played Annhilator83 like last year. U-Sub is soo easy to beat, people just don't know how to. While he's easy to use, he'll only beat inexperienced players 80% of the time. He's fine where he is on the tier list IMO, even though I don't agree 100% with the current tier list.

 

[Shock]

Out of all the players I saw who used U-sub last year and were celebrated, some of them were very good, but none of them were truly beyond the shadow of a doubt amazing U-Sub players. But no, he's not better than Kitana, Stryker, or Sonya. Scorpion is a flip flop mainly because they are right next to eachother. Scorpion's edge would be the teleports to an extent, and the air throw of course. Their damage potential is relatively the same vs eachother specifically.

As far as "human error" goes, it is slightly factored in but it's only where it's obvious. Things like successful execution of Reptile's infinite is a reason why he's not above Kano. If only a few Reptile players can do that, then obviously Reptile is harder to use However, the simple use of 50% combos is still present with him in a relatively easy manner. IE: the Reptile who represents his spot on the list should really only be challenged by the characters above him. There are a few here and there who also give him issues, but in general, he has things well in hand vs either more total characters, or even everyone else below him, where that character does not. If you get into counter picking, eventually you'll just get to Kabal vs Kabal.

If you're talking about players using characters the best they possibly can be used, the tier list still isn't going to look very different. Generally when someone describes a character being used in an optimal way, they don't describe how other characters can be used to beat that. This sets up a paradox and can only be determined by actual gameplay, and those human errors need to be present otherwise you're not going to see any strats working, and no combos landing, and ultimately it throws all the science out the window since none of it is necessary at that point of perfection. If that were the case, it'd come down to only normals and frame advantage.

 

[Dreamcatcher]

I would plus rep that but I can't. Brilliantly done.