MK9: Unofficial Tier List Speculation, and/or Character Shenanigans Discussion!

[lobo]

can we all at least agree that the negative edge in this game is retarded? if anything should be nerfed it is that.

 

[McNasty]

spin is too fuckin easy and comes out a bit fast. Look at raidens anti air you have to execute that shit before the person even thinks about jumping at you its so slow the spin can rape on a dime- .02

 

[DanCock]

can we all at least agree that the negative edge in this game is retarded? if anything should be nerfed it is that.

YES!!!!!!!!!!! we need a option to turn it off when we play online or off. I'm so sick of doing 2,1, df4 and having a fireball come out instead of step up. O_O


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[RWDY Nori]

I don't think anybody is getting mad, it's healthy discussion (at least I hope nobody is mad). It's just a bad idea to nerf anything in a game that has been out so little of a time that ISN'T gamebreaking. People are comparing KL to MvC3 Prepatch Sentinel which is nothing short of silly (assuming you actually played MvC3 in tourneys and didn't just watch vids all day and form opinions that way). This game isn't broken nor imbalanced at all. If there are 2 chars out of 20+ who have a very hard time winning (and it's not impossible) that's a damn good game

 

[oZii]

You missed my post, and not only added MKF30 to the first list, but added him twice...

I call cheats.

Oh no bone I saw it im looking at the PU footage right now To see how kung was punished. To what you where saying I am just more on the idea of the spin needing a bit of adjustment the window is extremely tight to punish the spin.

Yea I see what you are saying though I agree there was open punishes in there. After looking at the footage it can be punished but the window is extremely tight

 

[cyke_out]

the reality is that whether or not the move is broken, if it looks broken to scrubs it should still probably be nerfed. in this day and age of streams, the image of a game to noobs is just as important as the balance is to good players. after ONE big event, though, there is no way to even begin to assume anything.

I disagree with this.. alot. Actual balance is important, not the appearance of balance. Just becuase some scrubs don't want to take the time to learn how to beat something doesn't mean it's unbeatable, it just means they are scrubs.

 

[oZii]

my vote counts for 7 on account of inherent awesomeness.

the reality is that whether or not the move is broken, if it looks broken to scrubs it should still probably be nerfed. in this day and age of streams, the image of a game to noobs is just as important as the balance is to good players. after ONE big event, though, there is no way to even begin to assume anything.

I mean punishing a move is not something new to fighting games. Do I really have to go into practice mode for hours to find out how to punish 1 move?

 

[Action Kungfu]

Again, just let the game play out...people are BARELY used to the game as it is. Give people enough time to get used to punishing it on reaction. It's too early to actually change anything aside from infinites and the like. Just leave it as is...the fact that it is punishable is enough for now. If it becomes a bigger problem than it already is, it'll be changed.

I can somewhat agree to that. I only chimed in cause there was the discussion on the matter. The game is young and could evolve to where the spin isn't even as threatening as something else that pops up. And I'll say, that that doesn't make things better, but I guess we'll all just see. I'm just hoping that if something does get adjusted it doesn't make the move itself completely useless both ways.

the reality is that whether or not the move is broken, if it looks broken to scrubs it should still probably be nerfed. in this day and age of streams, the image of a game to noobs is just as important as the balance is to good players. after ONE big event, though, there is no way to even begin to assume anything.

It shouldn't be adjusted and nerfed because of it possibly looking broken to scrubs, that's just as quick as people saying it's totally ok. That type of stuff makes things go overboard because some people argue and complain in extremes with black and white, for or against.

 

[RWDY Nori]

Oh no bone I saw it im looking at the PU footage right now To see how kung was punished. To what you where saying I am just more on the idea of the spin needing a bit of adjustment the window is extremely tight to punish the spin.

Yea I see what you are saying though I agree there was open punishes in there. After looking at the footage it can be punished but the window is extremely tight

There shouldn't be a patch because people can't pay attention. It's been posted over and over it can be punished pretty badly by most chars. The overall problem I see is that not many people have REAL KL experience and are jumping to conclusions. I've logged in over 200 matches already either playing as KL or vs KL just to learn him. I promise if more people do this, he's not the boogey man people make him out to be

 

[lobo]

I disagree with this.. alot. Actual balance is important, not the appearance of balance. Just becuase some scrubs don't want to take the time to learn how to beat something doesn't mean it's unbeatable, it just means they are scrubs.

yeah as a player it pains me to say that. the FGC is very close to finally blowing up, though, and bringing in thousands of viewers on a regular basis and big money. there has to be a middle ground. we're not the people bringing the views, the sponsorship money, the TV time or the overall popularity. the scrubs are.

as much as it hurts to think that in the long run it is better to cater to scrubs, i believe that is becoming the reality more and more with each new generation of games. i don't like it, it's just business.

 

[Lucky Day]

I live in Rochester ny that's 7 hours away from ny city.

Yeah, you're a scrub for not going down there every weekend

 

[water]

My only gripe with Kung Lao's spin is the consistency of punishing it. If solid tournament players have difficulty punishing it on block, think of how that feels/looks to an average player. It needs just enough time to dash to jab combo. My suggestion of a blocked animation would not change its offensive potential at all. It is really a minor tweak in the game if we look at the big picture. I just commented on it since it was the current topic in the thread.

I'm surprised that I have not read much about the inconsistency of Mids against crouchers in this game . Or did I just miss it???

This is the biggest issue to me since it corrupts the fundamental offense/defense system of this game. I first noticed it with Cyrax in training. I was practicing the Command Throw to Bomb setup against different characters to see if it was character dependent. The throw itself IS! It whiffs some crouch blockers unless at a very specific range (too close & too far whiff). With further testing, I found that some of his normal moves that are usually mids actually whiff on some crouchers too. The inconsistency is really weird. There doesn't seem to be much of a pattern to who can and who cannot crouch. Am I the only one that thinks this is a big deal?

Honestly I have not tested with alot of the cast to determine how many moves this affects, so I do not know how widespread this issue is. I do feel that it screws Cyrax's game a bit against alot of the cast.

There is a "crouch size" list in another thread, but I am having difficulty finding it even with the search function. Any help with that is appreciated! Thanks!

 

[cyke_out]

yeah as a player it pains me to say that. the FGC is very close to finally blowing up, though, and bringing in thousands of viewers on a regular basis and big money. there has to be a middle ground. we're not the people bringing the views, the sponsorship money, the TV time or the overall popularity. the scrubs are.

as much as it hurts to think that in the long run it is better to cater to scrubs, i believe that is becoming the reality more and more with each new generation of games. i don't like it, it's just business.

I see where you coming from, and catering to the lowest common denomiator is nothing new, but it can get to the point where a game becomes way too scrub friendly where pro players feel like they are just wasting their time and would rather focus on another game besides the occassional big tourny for said scrubby game., where they don't train as hard and goof around and get accussed as cheating.

haha.. I'm joking... mostly.

 

[Action Kungfu]

There shouldn't be a patch because people can't pay attention. It's been posted over and over it can be punished pretty badly by most chars. The overall problem I see is that not many people have REAL KL experience and are jumping to conclusions. I've logged in over 200 matches already either playing as KL or vs KL just to learn him. I promise if more people do this, he's not the boogey man people make him out to be

The move is punishable and everyone knows that. However it takes less effort on Kung Lao's part to perform the actual move and possibly even land it(due to it's starting speed), than it does for an opponent to properly punish it to the maximum when they defend against it.

You gotta tell me what's more scrubbier between that.

200 matches. As an example though, you wanna know how many matches it takes to know you can punish most teleports on guard? 1.

 

[oZii]

Ok lets breakdown the tape shall we:

Spins Not Punished Times: 1:15, 3:40, 6:35
Spin Punished Times: 7:38, 8:34, and 10:32

Spins Not Punished Times: :53, 1:05, 2:53, 2:56
Spin Punished Times: 1:53, 6:19

After looking at the footage again between Tom and Perfect Legend and his matches with Justin I agree the spin can be punished.

The window is extremely tight from watching the video its almost as if you have to be expecting the spin in order to punish it. If you hesitate even the slightest kung can block. Also what I saw was that it seem that if he whiffs the spin its harder to punish than if blocked.

I think the window has to be a little bit longer not much just a little bit.

I also looked at REO videos against justin but it was the same thing also a mix of Punished and not punished. The second match more where punished.

So I still stand by my opinion that the risk is to minimal right now for the spin. When you learn the Patterns of your opponent then its much easier to punish cause you have a idea of when they might throw it out. If your not ready for it then your not going to punish it.

DISCLAIMER: Yes I know its 1 event and yes there are nerves involved a little bit. Also remember they practice together and Tom has had longer with the game than most of anybody. So I am just using the video as a reference as I think it gives a FAIR assessment of the move. It is just 1 move after all. I don't need months of footage for 1 move.

 

[cyke_out]

The move is punishable and everyone knows that. However it takes less effort on Kung Lao's part to perform the actual move and possibly even land it(due to it's starting speed), than it does for an opponent to properly punish it to the maximum when they defend against it.

You gotta tell me what's more scrubbier between that.

200 matches. As an example though, you wanna know how many matches it takes to know you can punish most teleports on guard? 1.

I agree with this. It just makes sense, logically. People have to royally fuck up to miss a blocked teleport punch punish. And for the most part, teleport punches don't net you as mush as a Kung Spin. But with the Kung spin, you have to be on your toes at all times. there is no big flashy rolling in the air animation, or a reeling back after a nomad dash graphic- no big shiny neon signs that screams destroy me!

Maybe there should be something like that.

 

[RWDY Nori]

A hadoken is easy to do in SF also. Yet against some chars like Chun Li, they have an ultra that goes right through FBs. Obviously one is easier than the other, but w/2 smart people, a mistake is a mistake. I'm 99% sure a smart KL w/half life won't throw it out cause it's easy to do knowing he might get killed if it's blocked

 

[Sequel]

This site will be renamed soon enough to, TEST YOUR NERF.

On a side but related note: I find everyone's lack of offline play (justifiable of course based on your location) and all-time tournament experience disturbing. I would have no business commenting on who should be nerfed in Blazblue or Tekken since I haven't logged enough offline/tournament time with those games/characters.

In the TWO WEEKS that MK9 has been out there's only been one true Major and it was won by someone who has had the game far longer than anyone else. And guess what? He's on here telling you that Kung is #6 and not to nerf him. Do you see him playing as Kung Lao? No you do not. Please think before all of you CRY nerf.

 

[RWDY Nori]

On a side but related note: I find everyone's lack of offline play (justifiable of course based on your location) and all-time tournament experience disturbing. I would have no business commenting on who should be nerfed in Blazblue or Tekken since I haven't logged enough offline/tournament time with those games/characters.

This x5

This is still something I never truly got used to. Back in the day, people just figured out how to beat something. Now, if it's slightly inconvenient, ban/patch. It's a fighting game guys, it's supposed to challenge you. If spin were 100% safe, obviously we would all be on the same page

 

[MKF30]

Ozii, nice points. For curiousity I made a thread concerning who should be nerfed but got closed for some reason ...but I guess we can discuss it in here .

One other thing I know you can do on Kung's teleport is duck and kick, if you time it well you can push him back.

 

[DanCock]

again I'm not bitching about the spin itself, the spin can stay as is. it sucks that I can only punish it with a 11% special but it's better then nothing. my issue is that he has every tool to win. that's all. sub doesn't even have every tool to win, cage doesn't, reptile doesn't, raiden doesn't, cyber sub doesn't.




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[Action Kungfu]

I agree with this. It just makes sense, logically. People have to royally fuck up to miss a blocked teleport punch punish. And for the most part, teleport punches don't net you as mush as a Kung Spin. But with the Kung spin, you have to be on your toes at all times. there is no big flashy rolling in the air animation, or a reeling back after a nomad dash graphic- no big shiny neon signs that screams destroy me!

Maybe there should be something like that.

In the spin's defense, it only hit up close. A teleport can hit from many different spots.

A hadoken is easy to do in SF also. Yet against some chars like Chun Li, they have an ultra that goes right through FBs. Obviously one is easier than the other, but w/2 smart people, a mistake is a mistake. I'm 99% sure a smart KL w/half life won't throw it out cause it's easy to do knowing he might get killed if it's blocked

A smart KL player isn't going to just throw it out, because that's not... smart. It's fast enough to simply just use the move for defensive reaction purpses or as a punishment to other moves, or comboed into.

Speaking of SF, I'm very much not a fan of SF's risk/reward and much more fond of MK's risk/rewards in comparison, by a large margin. And for your example, ultras aren't always available anyway, and I'd be willing to guess that if the ultra was guarded on a failed attempt it'd be extremely punishable without tight timing(relative) whatsoever(or a huge punish fail window), the same as when hadokens are avoided(or even guarded up close - depending on the shoto and particular SF games).

 

[RWDY Nori]

If a smart KL will never just "throw it out", and it's only used for punishing other moves, comboed into, defensive purposes like you say.....then it shouldn't be blocked, in theory right? If that's the case, there is no reason to talk about how to punish it. Yet, in reality, it WILL be thrown out at random times by top players and in time, everybody will know how to punish it w/the max w/their chosen char

 

[Tom Brady]

guys, this was mk9s first major and i felt some pressure here to deliver so there were times where i misexecuted.. AND I LOVE IT! normally i am 90% on that punish but because i felt a big amount of pressure here i messed up at times.

its my fault.. now that power up is done and i feel the monkey off my back it will be rare when you dont see that shit punished.

i like that its a smaller window so that all the cry babies cant punish without practice. i'll punish it, you wont .. i like that because i practiced it and you didnt.

stop crying and start practicing.

 

[oZii]

This site will be renamed soon enough to, TEST YOUR NERF.

On a side but related note: I find everyone's lack of offline play (justifiable of course based on your location) and all-time tournament experience disturbing. I would have no business commenting on who should be nerfed in Blazblue or Tekken since I haven't logged enough offline/tournament time with those games/characters.

In the TWO WEEKS that MK9 has been out there's only been one true Major and it was won by someone who has had the game far longer than anyone else. And guess what? He's on here telling you that Kung is #6 and not to nerf him. Do you see him playing as Kung Lao? No you do not. Please think before all of you CRY nerf.

Nobody is crying or whining why does everyone think that. It is a matter of opinion nothing more or nothing less. The kung discussion will die and we will talk about a new character. Thats how this entire thread has gone.

Im not going to lie I don't have any tournament experience in MK9. I do play offline though. I do have some tournament experience with Tekken and Some in VF though as they are my all time favorite fighting game and have played fighting games since Karate Champ in the Arcades. Regardless of what move it is in what fighting game. Yes I have played all iterations of MK up until Deadly Alliance.

1 move is just that 1 move. I don't need to be Daigo to understand risk/reward with 1 move. I can't comment on SF:AE cause I havent played it. I can comment of SFIV since I have it same as MK9.

Example in Tekken EWFG is Hard as hell to do and unpunishable but to do it consistantly you have to have to practice to get it down on queue the reward pays off because of the juggles and pressure it provides a Mishima user that Can EWFG and Can't is night and Day.

VF Akira is considered usually the hardest character ever to master in any fighting game but his reward is sky high. A scrub can't pick him up and button mash or win.