MK1 Tier List Discussion Thread

[wsj515]

No. I’m just telling you what he said. And his personal reactions are irrelevant. Not sure why you have a dickhead attitude about it but aight

You literally said this "The last paragraph in my post you quoted should answer this question" and I'm the one being the dickhead? Was just giving back what I got. Its not clear at all what you were arguing, or if you were just acting as a messenger delivering the info from the jmcroft video.

His reaction time is relevant, considering we're literally talking about things being reactable - and yeah he is just one person, but he's a competitive FG player so they're a pretty decent benchmark to use. Also, the fact that they are so variable just lends further credence to 20+f moves being less reactable then people claim them to be.

 

[SaltShaker]

You fail to mention the context of Jin's d+2.

First of all, Jin has a plethora of low attacks in coordination with d+2, such as d+4, d/b+4, hell sweep, etc.

Second of all, d+2 crushes high attacks, acts as a counter-hit launcher, tracks to one side, etc.

While d+2 is not great as a standalone attack, the fact that Jin has access to the aforementioned low attacks and a couple of outstanding mid attacks (i.e., demon paw, f+4, etc.) creates a mental stack sufficiently high for d+2 not to be blocked reliably, unlike Sektor's 24F overhead.

Yes, I agree 100%. I made all those arguments and then some for MONTHS when people were trying to argue it was unreactable and was getting bashed with "hit the lab" and "get gud". Arslan, who is pretty much the Tekken version of Sonic Fox at this point, was adamant that it was reactable and you just needed to practice/play and it's easy and people kept quoting him saying it as the proof it was easy to block if you're good. He double and triple downed. THEN, he goes against a skilled Jin user getting hit with it non-stop throughout the set and got called out for his previous comments and went pretty much "oh it's unreactable if the Jin player is wisely using all their options". Well yes bruhhh, that's exactly what we said all along when he was preaching from the high horse. This is actually the point I'm making in a nutshell.

This is the case with almost every move close to the "edge" that people call reactable because it's practice room reactable. People from Arslan down were treating Jin's D2 like it was Bryan's Snake Edge or something until they didn't, or until they received pro player approval, but it's been the same D2 since day 1 when some of us were getting called scrubs or lab dodgers for calling it as obvious as it was. Unreactable.

Really don't think people understand how important each frame is.

A 1 frame link is miserable, a 2 frame link is doable. Likewise the difference between 30 frames and 20 frames is literally "free" to "unreactable".

This is before you get into how insanely important animations are to the whole thing, but seriously 2 frames matters in this range.

The point isn't "they're almost the same speed so no difference". The point is "they're almost the same frames of people pretending unreactable moves are reactable". Anything in the 18-25 frames range over the years always brings up a group of people claiming to react to things they never do in higher to highest level matches. All because they read some articles saying you can react or they did some 10/10 in the practice room so think they're a Jedi.

--In MKX everyone was claiming Kung Jin's OH was reactable and/or easily fuzzy guarded so the 50/50 was fake, EVERYONE, until Kung Jin dominated the tournament scene on the strength of high damage 50/50 launchers and it magically became "unreactable" overnight. Remember that?
--Literally no one took Saucy's money on Nightwing for months even those who went to tournament and challenged him or ducked the challenge altogether on such an "easy to see/easy money to block that OH". Remember that?
--I was just talking to Dave above about Jin's D2 in Tekken that was "easily reactable if you lab/get gud" until it magically became "unreactable" after the literal GOAT of the game got hit with it a million times in a set. Remember that?
--In KOF 15 before Chizuru was nerfed she was Uber Top Tier and not a player on the planet could block her 24F OH that had so much identifying animation that you could "see it in your sleep". Remember that?

I could go on forever. There are countless examples of this throughout all FGs over the years past and present. In Tekken I haven't been hit with a Bryan Snake Edge since I was a kid, because it's reactable. Pro players don't even use Snake Edge because they would be full launch punished. Lower levels use it a lot however. That's what reactable actually is in real matches. Moves that you're in the middle of a match, it's thrown at you in any scenario, you see it, and you block it. Anything not fitting this description in real gameplay from skilled players is unreactable.

 

[Juggs]

You literally said this "The last paragraph in my post you quoted should answer this question" and I'm the one being the dickhead? Was just giving back what I got.

Now I’m the one confused. What about what I said is even remotely close to being confrontational?

You said “I'm confused, is this arguing that a 24f OH is or isn't reactable?”. And the answer to that is literally in the last paragraph of the post you quoted. I figured that since it was a longer post that maybe you overlooked it. Idk how else to say that other than copy pasting it. But I am a bit autistic so maybe I’m wrong. My bad if so

His reaction time is relevant

I don’t believe his reaction times in the video he posted are relevant because I don’t believe they were an accurate representation of his actual reaction times. He was just showing an example while recording and talking, which is actually fairly difficult to do at least for me. Aside from that, that was a “pure reactions” test. Well I guess it depends on if he’s ever done that test before or played the game, but judging by how he talked about it, it didn’t seem like he had. Or at least isn’t familiar with the MU. Anyway, I think I mentioned this in my OP but can’t remember, but I define “pure reacting/reactions” as pretty much reacting to something you’ve never seen before. So if you have never seen the animation of a certain overhead for whatever reason and you try to react to it, that’s a “pure reaction” and my point was that this almost doesn’t exist in fighting games. At least not for experienced players. And that a “pure reaction” is much different than how reacting to things works in FG’s. There is a balancing of the scales with that a bit when you factor in mental stack though. Which is why I mentioned that in my OP.

As far as the GG react test he did, like I said, he was just showing how it works while filming. He even noted that if he actually took the time to practice that he’d get much better times. But even him “purely reacting” WHILE talking and making a video, he got an average of 25f’s. Which he admitted was a slow reaction time which is why he said that if he actually sat down and essentially “tried” he’d get a much better time. And to be clear, I do agree with his assessment that anything 20f’s and above in FG’s is reactable for experienced players. But again like I said in my OP, it depends on how you’re defining “reactable”.

 

[wsj515]

That's what reactable actually is in real matches. Moves that you're in the middle of a match, it's thrown at you in any scenario, you see it, and you block it. Anything not fitting this description in real gameplay from skilled players is unreactable.

Now I’m the one confused. What about what I said is even remotely close to being confrontational?

You said “I'm confused, is this arguing that a 24f OH is or isn't reactable?”. And the answer to that is literally in the last paragraph of the post you quoted. I figured that since it was a longer post that maybe you overlooked it. Idk how else to say that other than copy pasting it. But I am a bit autistic so maybe I’m wrong. My bad if so


I don’t believe his reaction times in the video he posted are relevant because I don’t believe they were an accurate representation of his actual reaction times. He was just showing an example while recording and talking, which is actually fairly difficult to do at least for me. Aside from that, that was a “pure reactions” test. Well I guess it depends on if he’s ever done that test before or played the game, but judging by how he talked about it, it didn’t seem like he had. Or at least isn’t familiar with the MU. Anyway, I think I mentioned this in my OP but can’t remember, but I define “pure reacting/reactions” as pretty much reacting to something you’ve never seen before. So if you have never seen the animation of a certain overhead for whatever reason and you try to react to it, that’s a “pure reaction” and my point was that this almost doesn’t exist in fighting games. At least not for experienced players. And that a “pure reaction” is much different than how reacting to things works in FG’s. There is a balancing of the scales with that a bit when you factor in mental stack though. Which is why I mentioned that in my OP.

As far as the GG react test he did, like I said, he was just showing how it works while filming. He even noted that if he actually took the time to practice that he’d get much better times. But even him “purely reacting” WHILE talking and making a video, he got an average of 25f’s. Which he admitted was a slow reaction time which is why he said that if he actually sat down and essentially “tried” he’d get a much better time. And to be clear, I do agree with his assessment that anything 20f’s and above in FG’s is reactable for experienced players. But again like I said in my OP, it depends on how you’re defining “reactable”.

It seemed pretty confrontational to me considering my response to your initial post seemed pretty clear in addressing that your initial post had a lot of contradicting statements like talking about how "reacting" to things in FGs is made up of a lot more than just pure reactions, but then ending the post with cut-and-dry static "windows" of frame data that are varying degrees of reactable based off of reaction tests, where there are no reads, or conditioning, or anything else that exists in FGs. Having seen an animation before (not "purely reacting") isn't going to decrease your reaction time in a situation where you have to think about multiple other possible options and outcomes, rather it will 100% net increase your time to react.

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Adding a TLDR here after writing this: its more of the same "you're wrong I'm right" where no one's going to actually change their opinion etc., I just wrote a book rehashing the whole conversation but I'm posting it anyway because idc - so skip if you want.

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Don't you think that a canned reaction time game, where the only thing you need to do is react to a single thing happening and act accordingly, should have faster reaction times then when you add additional complexity?

Running through this one more time - he starts with the normal reaction time tester. All he is doing is reacting to a screen changing from one color to another, then clicking - this theoretically yields the fastest times, what he is saying is the "edge of reactability" which is 16-19 frames, just as you quote in your initial message - I definitely agree that he could get this up if he practiced. The "pure reacting" you talk about happens with games like this, not FGs - where you are reacting to a single stimulus and performing a single action, no other comlicating variables exist. Everying past this is going to get slower, not faster, even if you've seen the animation before.

Next he does the Millia Blocker, which is slightly more complex because he is reacting to an animation, vs. a whole screen color change, but the input required barely changes - a click vs. up arrow. Funny enough, his reaction times are faster here, and that's because he actually starts trying - you see it happen the second time he does the test, he stops talking and focuses for a few rounds, which results in scores between 22.5-27.3 frames. The only added complexity from one test to another was the visuals of the stimulus to react to, and without even considering his scores, the expected scores increase by a good number of frames. What happens when animations aren't so telegraphed, or you need to think about their various options, your punishes, etc. etc.? Are we really going to say that this additional mental stack isn't even giving the same amount of difficulty increase that we saw from reaction test to Millia Blocker?

I think his reactions shown are relevant and useful to this discussion, because even if you say he was somewhat distracted by talking (the scores I listed above were from when he focused up) - he's still at or over the reaction time of reacting to things people are calling "reactable," and him talking is adding a very minor additional mental stack that is likely below what we'd expect from a FG.

I think arguing the definition for "reactable" is just getting into semantics and a waste of time, but for what it's worth, I think you can't say a move is truly reactable if its possible to land a hit on a professional player with the move, without it being a counter hit / punish. This brings us back to where we started, where Dave was trying to say a 24f OH is useless and only catches people trying to micro duck (??? lmao).

Sub Zero's b2 is 24f, just like Sektor's, but imo its animation is 10x more telegraphed - and over the last year + we've seen many many people get opened up by it in tournament. 24f is a slow normal - so people are way more likely to react to it than something 16-19 frames, of course - but Sub has 0 mixup between b2 and any other button / situation outside of some kameo HTB, so theoretically if it was truly 100% reactable, a professional player who has seen the Sub b2 animation 100s of times before should be able to block it every single time, yet that doesn't happen.

 

[Vulgar]

Obviously, all tools are relative, and all that I was attempting to communicate (yet evidently failed based on these superfluous posts on human reaction, which are largely irrelevant to this argument) is that Sektor lacks the "mental stack" for the overhead to connect frequently, as you accurately stated.



You fail to mention the context of Jin's d+2.

First of all, Jin has a plethora of low attacks in coordination with d+2, such as d+4, d/b+4, hell sweep, etc.

Second of all, d+2 crushes high attacks, acts as a counter-hit launcher, tracks to one side, etc.

While d+2 is not great as a standalone attack, the fact that Jin has access to the aforementioned low attacks and a couple of outstanding mid attacks (i.e., demon paw, f+4, etc.) creates a mental stack sufficiently high for d+2 not to be blocked reliably, unlike Sektor's 24F overhead.

Besides, Jin's d+2 is faster than Sektor's b+2 anyway, so this equivalency is flawed.

My primary point remains that offense is the most efficacious aspect in Mortal Kombat 1. The characters with the best offensive options are essentially the best characters in the game (i.e., Cage, Cyrax, Havik, Homelander, and Kenshi).

Sektor lacks such options, so she is nowhere near top 5.



Point taken because he did perform a lot better in the most recent set against Rewind's Ermac.

But if we are not allowed to evaluate a character based on Sonic Fox's performance in a casual set or otherwise, how are we allowed to evaluate a character?

Mortal Kombat 1 does not have the quality of competition or the quantity of offline tournaments as Street Fighter 6 and Tekken 8 do.

Havik and Homelander have been popping up rather consistently in these online tournaments, though.

NRS will most definitely nerf them while feeding more bread crumbs to Quan Chi and Sub Zero.

Didn't Broseph make it all the way to Final Kombat with Quan Chi? Pretty sure Roethor has multiple Top 8s in R1p's Arena with Quan Chi as well.

Anywho, I don't have a good answer for you. My only argument is that casuals with your training partners are very volatile. As you pointed out, Fox did better in his most recent set vs Rewind's Ermac, but did poorly in the first set.

And that's before we factor in match ups. It may be that Ermac does well against Sektor, whereas other characters might struggle vs her.

Personally, I favor match up based tier lists rather than tool-based ones.

 

[LEGEND]

Personally, I favor match up based tier lists rather than tool-based ones.

I'm usually a big proponent of that as well but it feels weird for this game. Sometimes a specific Kameo pairing between both characters makes a matchup way better/worse. That and there aren't nearly enough dedicated high level players to really flesh this kinda thing out.

Sub Zero's b2 is 24f, just like Sektor's, but imo its animation is 10x more telegraphed - and over the last year + we've seen many many people get opened up by it in tournament. 24f is a slow normal - so people are way more likely to react to it than something 16-19 frames, of course - but Sub has 0 mixup between b2 and any other button / situation outside of some kameo HTB, so theoretically if it was truly 100% reactable, a professional player who has seen the Sub b2 animation 100s of times before should be able to block it every single time, yet that doesn't happen.

Maybe I'm mis reading this (highlighted section) but Sub Zero does have a 13 frame Low B3, Sektor has a 14 frame Low B3. Its almost the exact same situation.

 

[Eji1700]

I'm usually a big proponent of that as well but it feels weird for this game. Sometimes a specific Kameo pairing between both characters makes a matchup way better/worse. That and there aren't nearly enough dedicated high level players to really flesh this kinda thing out.

Maybe I'm mis reading this (highlighted section) but Sub Zero does have a 13 frame Low B3, Sektor has a 14 frame Low B3. Its almost the exact same situation.

And it's also misleading to say "oh we've seen lots of people get opened up in tournament by subzero's overhead" because we also see people not punish the EXTREMELY reactable ice clone all the fucking time in just about every tournament lower than a major top 32. At some point it's a knowledge check and most people aren't bothering to lab their reactions to sub zero because you don't fucking need to. He doesn't show up often, and even if he does, and you do occasionally get hit by the overhead, he's STILL not likely to win for a plethora of other reasons. So do you want spend your time setting up training sub to alternate between 5 different mixups or do you want to just lab the homelander matchup again?

Hell you see people get hit by stuff like B2xxSlide even though in 99% of cases that is 100% fake as there's no reason to not block low after the first B2 hit, and that's a fuckton of frames to react.

Finally, as for sub play beyond the top 32 in a major, I haven't seen any, and last I checked that's because no one has made it that far with him. We've see what, a couple of top 16's and top 8's in smaller tournaments? How is any of this good data.

As for the rest of the arguments, yes I remember many of the times people whined about something being reactable and it wasn't. There's also plenty of times they've been fucking right. ESPECIALLY when you go outside of well designed games like SF/Tekken/MK and start playing jank like For Honor or any of the arena fighters which are often "casual first competitive second", there are shit tons of examples of supposed mixup tools that just do not fucking work, and yes around the 25f margin.

Edit:

Oh and don't even get me started on the online vs offline thing. How many sub b2's are getting blown up in online matchups vs in person? Online is vaaaastly better than the old days, but even as much as 2 frames of delay matters when you're on these edges. Then it becomes reactable in a decent connection and not in a bad one.

Edit:

Also just noticed, you haven't been hit by a snake edge in forever? You're aware tekken 7 has several 24/25 frame snake edge's right?

 

[wsj515]

Maybe I'm mis reading this (highlighted section) but Sub Zero does have a 13 frame Low B3, Sektor has a 14 frame Low B3. Its almost the exact same situation.

Yeah I'm not trying to say they're different situations - I'm just saying that Sub (and as you point out Sektor) doesn't have a natural true 50/50, and b2 is 24f with a super recognizable animation, but still manages to open people up.

You weren't responding to me on this, but I don't think kameos effect the MU based tier list much - you just use whatever is the best kameo for each MU - is there a situation where you think the de facto "right" kameo for a MU changes depending on what kameo the other character uses? I can't think of any.

 

[LEGEND]

You weren't responding to me on this, but I don't think kameos effect the MU based tier list much - you just use whatever is the best kameo for each MU - is there a situation where you think the de facto "right" kameo for a MU changes depending on what kameo the other character uses? I can't think of any.

Its very polarizing for Shang at least. (Ie sub armor vs him, Picking Ambush kameos vs Stryker, Sonya, Scoprion Kameos. Also anyone that picks Ferra is getting 6-4ed or 7-3ed for free)

Mavado is also a great Kameo to pick vs anyone thats trying to run away or play defensive. (Reiko, Quan)

Some Characters have a not-great Matchup vs Shujinko. (Kenshi, Havik)

Like a theoretical MU chart would have Kenshi at the bottom Basically solely due to Shujinko. You'd have to go into matchups with blind picks, but nobody does that. People just aren't playing everything to the theorical max (which is what a MU based tier list should be based on)

I'm sure there is more.

 

[Juggs]

I think arguing the definition for "reactable" is just getting into semantics and a waste of time, but for what it's worth, I think you can't say a move is truly reactable if its possible to land a hit on a professional player with the move, without it being a counter hit / punish. This brings us back to where we started, where Dave was trying to say a 24f OH is useless and only catches people trying to micro duck (??? lmao).

As far as how people will define/use the term “reactable”, some will say something is only “reactable” if you can react to it 100% of the time. While others say something being “reactable” just means it’s humanly possible to react to. These two interpretations alone of “reactable” are polar opposites from one another. But there’s other interpretations as well. So it’s important to know how you’re defining “reactable” when having a discussion about what is and isn’t “reactable”.

My entire point has been that in FG’s you aren’t purely reacting to things. So you can’t just look at a moves frame data, see it’s a 22f move, and then determine whether or not that move is reactable or not. The reason I bring up a players experience as well as the animation of the move in question is because both play a significant factor in being able to react to it. If the animation is a more telegraphed one, especially if it’s unique, as in it doesn’t share its startup animation with any other move (or it isn’t similar), it’s a lot easier to react to than a move that has an animation that isn’t necessarily unique and not as telegraphed. Even IF the more unique move is several frames slower.

Anticipation/prediction plays such a vital role in reacting to things in FG’s. To the point to where if you factor in prediction, a ton of experience, and the animation being unique, it’s possible to react to even a 15f move. But when you factor in these other elements, some don’t consider that to be “reactable”, which again is why understanding how one defines the word is important.

 

[Felipe_Gewehr]

There is also some point I didn't see discussed in this "reactable frames" topic: fuzzyguard. If your opponent has a 9 frame low (humanly unreactable) and a 20 overhead (probably unreactable if not in a complete vacuum), you are not getting hit by either of those if block low then raise your block, because you will be covering both options. Your opponent is then required to do things like delayed walk into low, jab into low, jab into overhead etc. That is what is going to get you opened up, not the 9 and 20 frames "unreactability" per se.

 

[SaltShaker]

As far as how people will define/use the term “reactable”, some will say something is only “reactable” if you can react to it 100% of the time. While others say something being “reactable” just means it’s humanly possible to react to. These two interpretations alone of “reactable” are polar opposites from one another. But there’s other interpretations as well. So it’s important to know how you’re defining “reactable” when having a discussion about what is and isn’t “reactable”.

My entire point has been that in FG’s you aren’t purely reacting to things. So you can’t just look at a moves frame data, see it’s a 22f move, and then determine whether or not that move is reactable or not. The reason I bring up a players experience as well as the animation of the move in question is because both play a significant factor in being able to react to it. If the animation is a more telegraphed one, especially if it’s unique, as in it doesn’t share its startup animation with any other move (or it isn’t similar), it’s a lot easier to react to than a move that has an animation that isn’t necessarily unique and not as telegraphed. Even IF the more unique move is several frames slower.

Anticipation/prediction plays such a vital role in reacting to things in FG’s. To the point to where if you factor in prediction, a ton of experience, and the animation being unique, it’s possible to react to even a 15f move. But when you factor in these other elements, some don’t consider that to be “reactable”, which again is why understanding how one defines the word is important.

I don't think it's that complicated. If you're playing Injustice and in neutral thinking "oh he's gonna go for that cheesy advancing low again", but instead he goes for the universal 30F F3, you're going to react to it and respond accordingly. Doesn't matter what animations their other moves have, doesn't matter the setup they used, doesn't matter the speed of their low, you are reacting to F3 in Injustice all the time if used as a mix-up. It will only hit a good player as an EX armored counter, never as a move to open them up as a mix-up. At lower levels it can, but not higher levels.

That's reactable, a move that you as an experienced player will react to in live matches if used against you. Almost all the "it's reactable bro" moves in the history of FGs rarely ever fall under that category.

There is also some point I didn't see discussed in this "reactable frames" topic: fuzzyguard. If your opponent has a 9 frame low (humanly unreactable) and a 20 overhead (probably unreactable if not in a complete vacuum), you are not getting hit by either of those if block low then raise your block, because you will be covering both options. Your opponent is then required to do things like delayed walk into low, jab into low, jab into overhead etc. That is what is going to get you opened up, not the 9 and 20 frames "unreactability" per se.

Exactly. And if I'm able to "do other things to open you up" then it's, wait for it, unreactable lol.

This strongly applies to fuzzy guarding when the starter is a 50/50 starter because it's used so often as gospel. With a fuzzy you have already started blocked towards the first move and are reacting your timing to the second, but like you said a good opponent will start throwing off their timing which throws off yours and then players get opened up. That is different from blocking a 1st move and fuzzying the second. This would never work if one of the options was slow enough to truly be reactable.

For example, sticking with Injustice for now, Doomsday might be one of the brainless characters in NRS history but also the best example of what I'm talking about. His sole gameplay being using that stupid +OB shoulder into the "reactable fuzzy guard 50/50 with a 23F OH and 11F Low (which was basically guess 23F OH move, or guess 11F Low/OH string)" that seemed unstoppable for every player ever. It didn't even combo really it was just done over and over until he won. Why? On paper you'd think everyone would just always fuzzy and never be hit right? There's double the frames difference between the two starters no way this can hit anyone. Right? But because you didn't know which route he'd take or if he'd grab and reset the situation and the shoulder carries you damn near half a screen +7ish OB or a +OB jumping attack into the guessing game, the guessing game was rough and hit every player on the planet. Long story short.

You can fuzzy the Low/OH string consistently, BUT, you can't fuzzy the Low/OH STARTERS on reaction due to the options he had you were looking out for. These two things are not the same. This is why everyone from Joe Schmoe to Sonic Fox got opened up by the 50/50, but also anyone decent was able to fuzzy after blocking the Low. This is important to understand.

If Doomsday was doing low vs F3 after all his setups he would have been the worst character in the game by far, because everyone would have always blocked low and blocked F3 if used and his entire game plan was literally designed around his "reactable" 50/50. F3 was a reactable move, no if, no but. No matter what you're looking for you'll see and block F3. Situation, setup, none of it matters. Whereas no one could stop his actual 50/50 even though it was "reactable" the entire lifespan of the game. Practice room reactable is completely irrelevant in any of these discussions.

 

[LEGEND]

I think arguing the definition for "reactable" is just getting into semantics and a waste of time, but for what it's worth, I think you can't say a move is truly reactable if its possible to land a hit on a professional player with the move, without it being a counter hit / punish.

You are right that this topic is semantics and a waste of time.

There is no magic line. Each frame matters and the mental stack involved is highly relevant.

The only argument here is that MK1 Sektor does not impose enough mental stack for her 24 frame overhead to be a significant threat. The definition of "reactable" being "never will hit a (insert term) player" is subject and ridiculous.

 

[Juggs]

I don't think it's that complicated. If you're playing Injustice and in neutral thinking "oh he's gonna go for that cheesy advancing low again", but instead he goes for the universal 30F F3, you're going to react to it and respond accordingly. Doesn't matter what animations their other moves have, doesn't matter the setup they used, doesn't matter the speed of their low, you are reacting to F3 in Injustice all the time if used as a mix-up. It will only hit a good player as an EX armored counter, never as a move to open them up as a mix-up. At lower levels it can, but not higher levels.

A 30f move is much different than a 20-24f move. But as I said, you can’t just look at the frames of a move and determine whether or not it’s reactable.

That's reactable, a move that you as an experienced player will react to in live matches if used against you. Almost all the "it's reactable bro" moves in the history of FGs rarely ever fall under that category.

Yes, and my point is that not everyone uses the same definition for what is “reactable” in fighting games. So not everyone will define it this way.

Also, when you define it as "a move that you, as an experienced player, will react to in live matches if used against you,”

Do you mean you react 100% of the time, no matter what? Or react to it most of the time? Or that you should be able to react to it in live matches if used against you?

This isn’t just pedantry. These distinctions matter. If you and whoever you’re having a conversation with about a given topic either aren’t using the same definitions of words or aren’t clear on how one another is defining words, especially if the words are precisely what you’re discussing, you will never come to any meaningful understanding of one another and will just be talking past each other

 

[ImpostorOak]

A 30f move is much different than a 20-24f move. But as I said, you can’t just look at the frames of a move and determine whether or not it’s reactable.


Yes, and my point is that not everyone uses the same definition for what is “reactable” in fighting games. So not everyone will define it this way.

Also, when you define it as "a move that you, as an experienced player, will react to in live matches if used against you,”

Do you mean you react 100% of the time, no matter what? Or react to it most of the time? Or that you should be able to react to it in live matches if used against you?

This isn’t just pedantry. These distinctions matter. If you and whoever you’re having a conversation with about a given topic either aren’t using the same definitions of words or aren’t clear on how one another is defining words, especially if the words are precisely what you’re discussing, you will never come to any meaningful understanding of one another and will just be talking past each other

Right, an apple is able to be eaten. A battery is able to be eaten. Which one is edible?

People missing that point has been disappointing to read through.

 

[Felipe_Gewehr]

Or react to it most of the time? Or that you should be able to react to it in live matches if used against you?

I think that if you can only "react" to a move "some times", then you are not reacting to it, and are just basically getting lucky.

I pretty much define "reactable" to be "a move you will react to 100% of the time, in live matches, no matter what", which, well, is basically veeery few moves.

 

[wsj515]

My entire point has been that in FG’s you aren’t purely reacting to things. So you can’t just look at a moves frame data, see it’s a 22f move, and then determine whether or not that move is reactable or not. The reason I bring up a players experience as well as the animation of the move in question is because both play a significant factor in being able to react to it. If the animation is a more telegraphed one, especially if it’s unique, as in it doesn’t share its startup animation with any other move (or it isn’t similar), it’s a lot easier to react to than a move that has an animation that isn’t necessarily unique and not as telegraphed. Even IF the more unique move is several frames slower.

Anticipation/prediction plays such a vital role in reacting to things in FG’s. To the point to where if you factor in prediction, a ton of experience, and the animation being unique, it’s possible to react to even a 15f move. But when you factor in these other elements, some don’t consider that to be “reactable”, which again is why understanding how one defines the word is important.

No one has disagreed with this - unique animations, reads, MU knowledge, etc. all exist in FGs which can lead to anticipation and prediction. However, you are trying to say that this will always be a net positive for reaction times - which is 100% not the case. I don't know how many times someone needs to remind you that mental stack needs to be factored in. You're not considering that the attacker can make a read on the defender's read, or impose conditioning - I don't need to teach you mindgames 101, I know you know how it works.

The fact the human beings make "reads" to begin with makes us worse at both guessing and reacting. Whether you realize or not, everyone always believes that a situation has an "expected outcome" (a read). That bias allows us to "react" really fast to something when we are correct, but when we're wrong, it slows down our reaction to the unexpected outcome.

I keep trying to bring this back to talking about Sektor and the actual game, because that was the whole point to begin with, so here we go. Dave seems to think Sektor's b2 is only good at hitting people micro ducking. If they're micro ducking, they are making a read, and these people are then getting hit by a "reactable-because-MU-knowledge-not-because-its-really-slow" normal - that means this normal is not reactable even with MU knowledge.

So, yes, lets define it - something is not reactable unless (assuming you are not a vegetable) you can 100% block something in all situations in a live match. Saying MU / game knowledge and reads will help you react to things is wrong. They might help you, but they're also just as likely to work against you and open you up to some other option.

 

[Juggs]

No one has disagreed with this - unique animations, reads, MU knowledge, etc. all exist in FGs which can lead to anticipation and prediction. However, you are trying to say that this will always be a net positive for reaction times - which is 100% not the case. I don't know how many times someone needs to remind you that mental stack needs to be factored in. You're not considering that the attacker can make a read on the defender's read, or impose conditioning - I don't need to teach you mindgames 101, I know you know how it works.

What do you mean “remind me”? I even brought up mental stack in my OP. And I never said those things will always be a net positive for reaction times. I said when they’re taken into consideration, it’s possible to react to a move that’s even as fast as a 15f move. But when factoring in all of these things, that some wouldn’t consider it being you “reacting” to it. Which you are one of those people given your definition

So, yes, lets define it - something is not reactable unless (assuming you are not a vegetable) you can 100% block something in all situations in a live match. Saying MU / game knowledge and reads will help you react to things is wrong. They might help you, but they're also just as likely to work against you and open you up to some other option.

It isn’t a zero-sum game. These things can help you, not will help you. Just like they can hurt you, not will hurt you.

 

[Vulgar]

Oh my god, are we still talking about reactions?

This is stupid as shit

 

[SaltShaker]

A 30f move is much different than a 20-24f move. But as I said, you can’t just look at the frames of a move and determine whether or not it’s reactable.


Yes, and my point is that not everyone uses the same definition for what is “reactable” in fighting games. So not everyone will define it this way.

Also, when you define it as "a move that you, as an experienced player, will react to in live matches if used against you,”

Do you mean you react 100% of the time, no matter what? Or react to it most of the time? Or that you should be able to react to it in live matches if used against you?

This isn’t just pedantry. These distinctions matter. If you and whoever you’re having a conversation with about a given topic either aren’t using the same definitions of words or aren’t clear on how one another is defining words, especially if the words are precisely what you’re discussing, you will never come to any meaningful understanding of one another and will just be talking past each other

To me, good players are not hit with reactable moves, hence, the F3 example. The definition of the word react is literally you're able to respond to an action. If I can't respond to an action, it isn't reactable. So that's pretty much how I define it. Practice room stuff and human reaction time is completely irrelevant to me in discussion. Games with two good opponents should be the only measure used.

Why? Because if I can "mental stack you into being hit sometimes" or "you were hit because you were looking for something else" then it is not reactable. Your speed is slowed because of mental stacks, which any good player will use for slower mixups, which is why everyone always gets hit. F3 however was too slow for this and was, hence, reactable. Doomsday had an unreactable 50/50 even though his OH was twice the frames of his low and had a very distinct/different animation. I can't repeat enough how everyone was hit by the "obvious and predictable" Doomsday. To this day there are people that still call it reactable lol. It's also why no one took the Nightwing bet except the people that lost. Because there's a huge difference when a good player is playing above the frames and animations. This doesn't seem that confusing to me but always will be for some.

Oh my god, are we still talking about reactions?

This is stupid as shit

You know this is one hill I'll die on lol. I spent an entire FG history hearing people say they react to moves they never will because of an eye test. I will not tolerate blasphemy.

 

[Juggs]

To me, good players are not hit with reactable moves, hence, the F3 example. The definition of the word react is literally you're able to respond to an action. If I can't respond to an action, it isn't reactable. So that's pretty much how I define it.

For sure. And see, we can actually get somewhere with both you and @wsj515 defining it and pretty much using the same definition. That said, I want to emphasize that not everyone uses that definition. As I’ve said, for example, some say if it’s possible to react to, then it’s reactable. This is why I wanted the clarification.

At work so can’t respond to the rest for now.

 

[SaltShaker]

For sure. And see, we can actually get somewhere with both you and @wsj515 defining it and pretty much using the same definition. That said, I want to emphasize that not everyone uses that definition. As I’ve said, for example, some say if it’s possible to react to, then it’s reactable. This is why I wanted the clarification.

At work so can’t respond to the rest for now.

Yea that makes sense. I pretty much apply it in a FG sense where the frames don't even really matter, it should be about what we can do or not do in a match. If a move is "slow and identifiable" it has no meaning to me if everyone gets hit by it in matches. What @wsj515 wrote is pretty much exactly how feel about it. We were all here for the "reactable Kung Jin 50/50" because of practice room nonsense that aged like milk left on the porch. These arguments always age like milk left on the porch, but they always happen. Remember in MK11 Cetrion had "bad frame data with terrible startup and slow crappy zoning", then she was "mid tier", then she was "S-Tier broken please nerf NRS"? Pepperidge Farm remembers. Countless examples of match > vacuum eye test.

 

[LEGEND]

Here is my unserious, not-so-rigid tier list on how I feel about the cast. Each tier in order. All characters assumed to be using their best Kameos. This list is more grounded in what is "known" level of play and not so focused on hypothetical "highest level gameplay" or matchup spread.

I feel like nobody in the "Has Everything" tier should be buffed/nerfed in a significant way.

low effort opinions on how the rest of the cast could be rebalanced:

Spoiler: Suggested Changes

Sektor - Make all rockets splat on hit, not launch-able with Mavado. B3 could be a frame faster and easier to hit confirm.

Cyrax - Make both hits of the Buzzsaw string vacuum to the opponent on block. This makes her more consistently punishable by -7 punishes and keeps her from back dashing to safety vs others that would only be able to pressure with a mid afterwards (less brainless disjointed normals please). Teleport should leave her at point blank range and have slightly more recovery. To compensate, Give her another hit of Her B3 string and make the ender safe on block and hard knockdown on hit. (Bonus, Combos after command grab cannot link into net and combo damage scales properly, ie no 30%+ damage with Sektor or starting the vortex off of a grab.)

Johnny Cage - No more safe jump off of every combo. Finally nerf his Jump Kick, either more recovery on hit to lessen combo potential, or make it more consistent to anti-air. (He'll still be top tier)

Kenshi - Heavy re-work (Sorry Kenshi players, you picked the dumbest gameplay design ever to hitch your wagon to).

Reiko - Increased Command Grab damage (14% min on non-EX, EX could be faster start-up and/or more damage). Scale down the Command grab + Kameo combo damage (make it questionable to even use, so that other Kameos are more appealing). Make his F1 mid at least 1 frame faster so that it beats all pokes after a blocked B2 (F2?, the high that is +8 OB)

Mileena - I think she is really strong and well designed. Maybe less damage output
_

Homelander - Delete his command grab. Add another Laser or something idc.

Scorpion - Special cancelable B3 is questionable (maybe just make it safe on block), otherwise his kit is kinda perfect. He just has too great of synergy with Jax and Ferra.

Nitara - No cancel on her low.

Sindel - F1 raw is now heavily punishable on block and has less cancel advantage. D3 more negative on block.

Havik - Revert his Neck Snap change. EX dive kick no longer exists. Give him a fast mid or better hit advantage off of D4.

_
Shang - Another projectile option (Upskull or soul steal PLEASE!) or something to play footsies with that isn't just D4/D3 all the time. (F3 is doo-doo, please give me a reason to not touch that button.)

Shao - FFS give this guy a mid.

Takeda - Make B3 a couple frames faster and/or make it hit confirmable into decent damage without Kameo.

Raiden - Faster mid string or something to poke/threaten with outside of D4 range. Could just make his uncharged projectile much faster.

_
Lao - Safe hit confirmable mid, sub 14 frames. Buff divekick so that it actually beats out AA options, the thing constantly loses to jabs. No frame difference for B3(3) and B3(4), less negative on block.

Tanya - What is this character even supposed to be doing?

Geras - Full screen projectile that is + on block but slow startup. Hard to account for all his existing tools when considering changes.(Buff this guy's outfits please)

Sub Zero - Give this guy a better mid and something disjointed to poke with. B2 is mis-designed, he needs more offensive options to make it threatening to scout. Or just make it faster, safe and not combo on hit.

Quan - Let him play the game. . . Fix his pokes and give him a mid worth pressing.

Smoke - More mix, or give him the needed tools to play the base game like every other good character (disjointed footsie tool and a good mid)
_

Peacemaker - I wasn't playing when this character was broke tier. Haven't ran into a single one since his big nerf. No interest in labbing. No idea.

 

[Felipe_Gewehr]

View attachment 22118

Here is my unserious, not-so-rigid tier list on how I feel about the cast. Each tier in order. All characters assumed to be using their best Kameos. This list is more grounded in what is "known" level of play and not so focused on hypothetical "highest level gameplay" or matchup spread.

I feel like nobody in the "Has Everything" tier should be buffed/nerfed in a significant way.

low effort opinions on how the rest of the cast could be rebalanced:

Spoiler: Suggested Changes

Sektor - Make all rockets splat on hit, not launch-able with Mavado. B3 could be a frame faster and easier to hit confirm.

Cyrax - Make both hits of the Buzzsaw string vacuum to the opponent on block. This makes her more consistently punishable by -7 punishes and keeps her from back dashing to safety vs others that would only be able to pressure with a mid afterwards (less brainless disjointed normals please). Teleport should leave her at point blank range and have slightly more recovery. To compensate, Give her another hit of Her B3 string and make the ender safe on block and hard knockdown on hit. (Bonus, Combos after command grab cannot link into net and combo damage scales properly, ie no 30%+ damage with Sektor or starting the vortex off of a grab.)

Johnny Cage - No more safe jump off of every combo. Finally nerf his Jump Kick, either more recovery on hit to lessen combo potential, or make it more consistent to anti-air. (He'll still be top tier)

Kenshi - Heavy re-work (Sorry Kenshi players, you picked the dumbest gameplay design ever to hitch your wagon to).

Reiko - Increased Command Grab damage (14% min on non-EX, EX could be faster start-up and/or more damage). Scale down the Command grab + Kameo combo damage (make it questionable to even use, so that other Kameos are more appealing). Make his F1 mid at least 1 frame faster so that it beats all pokes after a blocked B2 (F2?, the high that is +8 OB)

Mileena - I think she is really strong and well designed. Maybe less damage output
_

Homelander - Delete his command grab. Add another Laser or something idc.

Scorpion - Special cancelable B3 is questionable (maybe just make it safe on block), otherwise his kit is kinda perfect. He just has too great of synergy with Jax and Ferra.

Nitara - No cancel on her low.

Sindel - F1 raw is now heavily punishable on block and has less cancel advantage. D3 more negative on block.

Havik - Revert his Neck Snap change. EX dive kick no longer exists. Give him a fast mid or better hit advantage off of D4.

_
Shang - Another projectile option (Upskull or soul steal PLEASE!) or something to play footsies with that isn't just D4/D3 all the time. (F3 is doo-doo, please give me a reason to not touch that button.)

Shao - FFS give this guy a mid.

Takeda - Make B3 a couple frames faster and/or make it hit confirmable into decent damage without Kameo.

Raiden - Faster mid string or something to poke/threaten with outside of D4 range. Could just make his uncharged projectile much faster.

_
Lao - Safe hit confirmable mid, sub 14 frames. Buff divekick so that it actually beats out AA options, the thing constantly loses to jabs. No frame difference for B3(3) and B3(4), less negative on block.

Tanya - What is this character even supposed to be doing?

Geras - Full screen projectile that is + on block but slow startup. Hard to account for all his existing tools when considering changes.(Buff this guy's outfits please)

Sub Zero - Give this guy a better mid and something disjointed to poke with. B2 is mis-designed, he needs more offensive options to make it threatening to scout. Or just make it faster, safe and not combo on hit.

Quan - Let him play the game. . . Fix his pokes and give him a mid worth pressing.

Smoke - More mix, or give him the needed tools to play the base game like every other good character (disjointed footsie tool and a good mid)
_

Peacemaker - I wasn't playing when this character was broke tier. Haven't ran into a single one since his big nerf. No interest in labbing. No idea.

This IMO makes much more sense than Kanimani's tier list. I'd maybe only swap Mileena with Ashrah.


As for fixing Nitara, removing her ability to cancel from low would kill her immediately lol.

 

[Krasiox]

View attachment 22118

Here is my unserious, not-so-rigid tier list on how I feel about the cast. Each tier in order. All characters assumed to be using their best Kameos. This list is more grounded in what is "known" level of play and not so focused on hypothetical "highest level gameplay" or matchup spread.

I feel like nobody in the "Has Everything" tier should be buffed/nerfed in a significant way.

low effort opinions on how the rest of the cast could be rebalanced:

Spoiler: Suggested Changes

Sektor - Make all rockets splat on hit, not launch-able with Mavado. B3 could be a frame faster and easier to hit confirm.

Cyrax - Make both hits of the Buzzsaw string vacuum to the opponent on block. This makes her more consistently punishable by -7 punishes and keeps her from back dashing to safety vs others that would only be able to pressure with a mid afterwards (less brainless disjointed normals please). Teleport should leave her at point blank range and have slightly more recovery. To compensate, Give her another hit of Her B3 string and make the ender safe on block and hard knockdown on hit. (Bonus, Combos after command grab cannot link into net and combo damage scales properly, ie no 30%+ damage with Sektor or starting the vortex off of a grab.)

Johnny Cage - No more safe jump off of every combo. Finally nerf his Jump Kick, either more recovery on hit to lessen combo potential, or make it more consistent to anti-air. (He'll still be top tier)

Kenshi - Heavy re-work (Sorry Kenshi players, you picked the dumbest gameplay design ever to hitch your wagon to).

Reiko - Increased Command Grab damage (14% min on non-EX, EX could be faster start-up and/or more damage). Scale down the Command grab + Kameo combo damage (make it questionable to even use, so that other Kameos are more appealing). Make his F1 mid at least 1 frame faster so that it beats all pokes after a blocked B2 (F2?, the high that is +8 OB)

Mileena - I think she is really strong and well designed. Maybe less damage output
_

Homelander - Delete his command grab. Add another Laser or something idc.

Scorpion - Special cancelable B3 is questionable (maybe just make it safe on block), otherwise his kit is kinda perfect. He just has too great of synergy with Jax and Ferra.

Nitara - No cancel on her low.

Sindel - F1 raw is now heavily punishable on block and has less cancel advantage. D3 more negative on block.

Havik - Revert his Neck Snap change. EX dive kick no longer exists. Give him a fast mid or better hit advantage off of D4.

_
Shang - Another projectile option (Upskull or soul steal PLEASE!) or something to play footsies with that isn't just D4/D3 all the time. (F3 is doo-doo, please give me a reason to not touch that button.)

Shao - FFS give this guy a mid.

Takeda - Make B3 a couple frames faster and/or make it hit confirmable into decent damage without Kameo.

Raiden - Faster mid string or something to poke/threaten with outside of D4 range. Could just make his uncharged projectile much faster.

_
Lao - Safe hit confirmable mid, sub 14 frames. Buff divekick so that it actually beats out AA options, the thing constantly loses to jabs. No frame difference for B3(3) and B3(4), less negative on block.

Tanya - What is this character even supposed to be doing?

Geras - Full screen projectile that is + on block but slow startup. Hard to account for all his existing tools when considering changes.(Buff this guy's outfits please)

Sub Zero - Give this guy a better mid and something disjointed to poke with. B2 is mis-designed, he needs more offensive options to make it threatening to scout. Or just make it faster, safe and not combo on hit.

Quan - Let him play the game. . . Fix his pokes and give him a mid worth pressing.

Smoke - More mix, or give him the needed tools to play the base game like every other good character (disjointed footsie tool and a good mid)
_

Peacemaker - I wasn't playing when this character was broke tier. Haven't ran into a single one since his big nerf. No interest in labbing. No idea.

Why is Reptile in "has everything" tier?