MK1 Tier List Discussion Thread

[wsj515]

as for kenshi and the kenshi down player, just having the sento sandwich IS dirt. That’s the dirtiest dirt you could ever have and you pigs have been rolling (and shitting) in it since September. I’m half joking, but yeah. I don’t play kenshi so I for sure don’t know the ins and outs of him, but if he really has been relegated to top ten then boo hoo, that must be sooo hard for you. I can’t imagine

Kind of a weird emotional response, though not too surprising given your admission re Geras - I haven't seriously played Kenshi in months and play lots of characters, so I have no horse in the race.

You're not ready to hear it but he was already top 10, and has received a pretty meaningful nerf, I predict he'll drop lower. He'll land where he lands, but honestly "I for sure don’t know the ins and outs of him" might be your problem. There are legitimate knowledge checks when Kenshi starts his offense that if you don't lab, you'll just get cooked - but that's a you problem, not the character. At this point I'd rather fight a Kenshi then almost any other mixup heavy team in the game.

 

[kabelfritz]

Kind of a weird emotional response, though not too surprising given your admission re Geras - I haven't seriously played Kenshi in months and play lots of characters, so I have no horse in the race.

You're not ready to hear it but he was already top 10, and has received a pretty meaningful nerf, I predict he'll drop lower. He'll land where he lands, but honestly "I for sure don’t know the ins and outs of him" might be your problem. There are legitimate knowledge checks when Kenshi starts his offense that if you don't lab, you'll just get cooked - but that's a you problem, not the character. At this point I'd rather fight a Kenshi then almost any other mixup heavy team in the game.

it is NRS' responsibility to make a character feel fair on every skill level though. if one char can only be beaten if you know him in and out like its your own main - i'm not that much a fan of it.

 

[Juggs]

As a Scorpion loyalist, I wouldn’t be surprised if he was in the top 10 now. With his buffs and Ferra, and even other Kameos like my new favorite Motaro, but also Sektor and probably others, he’s back to his former MKX/MK11 glory. Scorp/Ferra is like MKX Scorp, while Scorp/Motaro is like MK11 Scorp.

The only reason I’m hesitant to say he’s good now is because people have a hate boner for the character, so really hope he doesn’t get nerfed. He in no way even remotely deserves to be nerfed, but that has never mattered in the past. The only time he has actually deserved to be nerfed was in Injustice, lol

 

[wsj515]

it is NRS' responsibility to make a character feel fair on every skill level though. if one char can only be beaten if you know him in and out like its your own main - i'm not that much a fan of it.

I don't really understand what you mean by this - you're saying you shouldn't need to lab a character in order to understand the matchup? I fundamentally disagree that every character should feel fair at every skill level, that's crazy, and is not something that's worked towards in literally any competitive game.

There are posters here for example that say Reptile and Sub Zero should never have been buffed because they hate fighting them / think they're already really strong - should NRS not change them / maybe even nerf them, because they need to balance towards the lowest common denominator of people who just don't care enough about the game to lab?

 

[kabelfritz]

I don't really understand what you mean by this - you're saying you shouldn't need to lab a character in order to understand the matchup? I fundamentally disagree that every character should feel fair at every skill level, that's crazy, and is not something that's worked towards in literally any competitive game.

There are posters here for example that say Reptile and Sub Zero should never have been buffed because they hate fighting them / think they're already really strong - should NRS not change them / maybe even nerf them, because they need to balance towards the lowest common denominator of people who just don't care enough about the game to lab?

thats not what i meant. lets say 2 intermediate players meet each other, one kenshi and one sub. both do not have perfect knowledge of the game, but even if the chars are equally strong in theory, the kenshi player will have a strong adavantage because it is so hard to learn to blow up that sento pressure. so basically the sub player has to lab kenshi super-hard to stand a chance, while the kenshi player learns the standard sub-zero-defense pretty easily and is fine. thats what feels kinda unfair to me. i'm all pro character variety and dont want sento pressure to go away, but they could try to design it in a way that translates well to all skill levels. like its full power is hidden behind some execution barrier, while the easier stuff is also easier to counter intuitively by having more visible gaps or sth.

 

[wsj515]

thats not what i meant. lets say 2 intermediate players meet each other, one kenshi and one sub. both do not have perfect knowledge of the game, but even if the chars are equally strong in theory, the kenshi player will have a strong adavantage because it is so hard to learn to blow up that sento pressure. so basically the sub player has to lab kenshi super-hard to stand a chance, while the kenshi player learns the standard sub-zero-defense pretty easily and is fine. thats what feels kinda unfair to me. i'm all pro character variety and dont want sento pressure to go away, but they could try to design it in a way that translates well to all skill levels. like its full power is hidden behind some execution barrier, while the easier stuff is also easier to counter intuitively by having more visible gaps or sth.

I mean this is what you said before, just extrapolated a bit - you're saying that these intermediate players shouldn't need to lab. Character execution doesn't change this, and Kenshi isn't even hard to lab as someone who's not trying to pick up the character because you don't need to even dip into holding kameo button or negative edge, almost all Kenshi pressure is auto-timed. People just see a character that has a different mechanic, and are too lazy / just give up without trying.

There are a lot of layers and complex situations / interactions in this game, funny enough Kenshi / Sento will always be Kenshi / Sento, while other characters can change drastically based on Kameo choice. If that same Sub Zero player was using Khameleon for example, Kenshi better have labbed Sub's khameleon options, if he doens't know Sub's options he's going to be blown apart, no different than if Sub doesn't know Kenshi's options.

 

[kabelfritz]

I mean this is what you said before, just extrapolated a bit - you're saying that these intermediate players shouldn't need to lab. Character execution doesn't change this, and Kenshi isn't even hard to lab as someone who's not trying to pick up the character because you don't need to even dip into holding kameo button or negative edge, almost all Kenshi pressure is auto-timed. People just see a character that has a different mechanic, and are too lazy / just give up without trying.

There are a lot of layers and complex situations / interactions in this game, funny enough Kenshi / Sento will always be Kenshi / Sento, while other characters can change drastically based on Kameo choice. If that same Sub Zero player was using Khameleon for example, Kenshi better have labbed Sub's khameleon options, if he doens't know Sub's options he's going to be blown apart, no different than if Sub doesn't know Kenshi's options.

im not saying they shouldnt lab. im saying that equal amounts of labbing should provide equal chances to win. and btw as a havik main my take on sento is also a unique one i guess.

 

[ticklebandit!]

Kind of a weird emotional response

Was a light hearted roast my man. I think saying Kenshi isn't even top 10 is a crazy take but you do you. Agree to disagree.

And by saying I don't know the ins and outs I meant I don't play the character. I've labbed the basics of Sento pressure, but as @kabelfritz is saying, there is quite a bit to lab. Compared to say, a blocked Sub slide equals a punish. And don't muddle it with kameo's, thats assisst fighters for you. Kenshi has the same kameo coverage available to him, just not while sento is out because that would be insane.

 

[Rodney Quillz]

Lmao not @wsj515 being called a downplayer

 

[ticklebandit!]

Rednose wins defend the north with Kenshi from losers, vs a Sub/kham to boot. Used Mavado to bring out sento ON BLOCK. But what do I know?? Character is mid tier I guess.

But really, it was a close set and Rednose played great. Doesn't solidify any tier list I know i know. I'm just sayin..

 

[BlazingShrapnel]

Rednose wins defend the north with Kenshi from losers, vs a Sub/kham to boot. Used Mavado to bring out sento ON BLOCK. But what do I know?? Character is mid tier I guess.

But really, it was a close set and Rednose played great. Doesn't solidify any tier list I know i know. I'm just sayin..

Not only did Rednose win, it was a runback from Winner's Finals. Jusmeezy took it pretty convincingly that set, too. Took Rednose trying Sub and Stryker kameos before finally picking Mavado. Think Kenshi's just one of those characters that always has a chance. Don't think people will ever agree on his tier list placement because of that lol

 

[wsj515]

Here's WizeGemeni's list, Kenshi is at 16. I think this is too low, but he's clearly dropped. If I'm "downplaying," why is Wize, is a Havik player who gets evicerated by Kenshi, placing him this low? He has no agenda or incentive to do so.

I'd recommend reading the thread, seems like Wize has spent some time replying to people and explaining his placements.

https://x.com/i/web/status/1822675181900369932

Also @Rodney Quillz look at that - Johnny still top 5, you won't believe me but I'm happy about that. They've managed to nerf him without destroying the character, though I'm sure you'll find something to complain about.

 

[Trini_Bwoi]

Here's WizeGemeni's list, Kenshi is at 16. I think this is too low, but he's clearly dropped. If I'm "downplaying," why is Wize, is a Havik player who gets evicerated by Kenshi, placing him this low? He has no agenda or incentive to do so.

I'd recommend reading the thread, seems like Wize has spent some time replying to people and explaining his placements.

https://x.com/i/web/status/1822675181900369932

Also @Rodney Quillz look at that - Johnny still top 5, you won't believe me but I'm happy about that. They've managed to nerf him without destroying the character, though I'm sure you'll find something to complain about.

Takeda, worse than Havik?

What are these bad Kenshi matchups he speaks of

Ferra's doing some heavy lifting across the board in this tier list

 

[ImpostorOak]

I've only played Takeda since his release. I think him being bottom 1 is pretty fair. Outside of 1 Cyrax combo, tell me what his smart kunai does for him? You have to have 2 on the ground to make his throw pop up and NOT combo unless you use a Kameo.

Aside from that, he just has so many huge issues with gaps and bad mids. He's fun as hell tho, and would be absolutely broken if buffed in the wrong ways.

 

[wsj515]

I've only played Takeda since his release. I think him being bottom 1 is pretty fair. Outside of 1 Cyrax combo, tell me what his smart kunai does for him? You have to have 2 on the ground to make his throw pop up and NOT combo unless you use a Kameo.

Aside from that, he just has so many huge issues with gaps and bad mids. He's fun as hell tho, and would be absolutely broken if buffed in the wrong ways.

I agree with everything here but for smart kunai launching in a throw, you only need 1 down already - just have to hold 1 for duration of the throw and they'll launch

 

[ImpostorOak]

I agree with everything here but for smart kunai launching in a throw, you only need 1 down already - just have to hold 1 for duration of the throw and they'll launch

Well TIL. Off to the lab again.

 

[Promethium77]

Why is everyone saying peacemaker is low/mid tier now when he was considered broken on release?

 

[M2Dave]

Why is everyone saying peacemaker is low/mid tier now when he was considered broken on release?

Torpedo (b,f+2) was changed from a mid to a high attack, with more recovery frames on whiff.

Eagley (d,b+4) received significantly more recovery frames on block, making the move unsafe in block strings.

Force field (HCB+3) received significantly more recovery frames after activation.

Anti-gravity's (d,b+2) chip damage and frame advantage were slightly nerfed.

Some of his normal attacks received damage nerfs, albeit these nerfs happened almost as soon as he was released.

Peacemaker was a zoning character, an archetype that is basically not allowed to exist as top tier in modern NRS fighting games, so the developers obliterated him without compensating or redesigning him.

 

[Rodney Quillz]

Here's WizeGemeni's list, Kenshi is at 16. I think this is too low, but he's clearly dropped. If I'm "downplaying," why is Wize, is a Havik player who gets evicerated by Kenshi, placing him this low? He has no agenda or incentive to do so.

I'd recommend reading the thread, seems like Wize has spent some time replying to people and explaining his placements.

https://x.com/i/web/status/1822675181900369932

Also @Rodney Quillz look at that - Johnny still top 5, you won't believe me but I'm happy about that. They've managed to nerf him without destroying the character, though I'm sure you'll find something to complain about.

Lmao IM THE ONE who’s going to find something to complain about? You’ve legit had this same post every time he’s got nerfed and always end up complaining about something else, 99% of my trolling is just responding to you complaining, I thought our heat was over lmao.

 

[Felipe_Gewehr]

Here's WizeGemeni's list, Kenshi is at 16. I think this is too low, but he's clearly dropped. If I'm "downplaying," why is Wize, is a Havik player who gets evicerated by Kenshi, placing him this low? He has no agenda or incentive to do so.

I'd recommend reading the thread, seems like Wize has spent some time replying to people and explaining his placements.

https://x.com/i/web/status/1822675181900369932

Also @Rodney Quillz look at that - Johnny still top 5, you won't believe me but I'm happy about that. They've managed to nerf him without destroying the character, though I'm sure you'll find something to complain about.

I think Nitara is not really a top 5 character, even with the buffs and the damage from Ferra.

 

[rifraf]

Here's WizeGemeni's list, Kenshi is at 16. I think this is too low, but he's clearly dropped. If I'm "downplaying," why is Wize, is a Havik player who gets evicerated by Kenshi, placing him this low? He has no agenda or incentive to do so.

I'd recommend reading the thread, seems like Wize has spent some time replying to people and explaining his placements.

https://x.com/i/web/status/1822675181900369932

Also @Rodney Quillz look at that - Johnny still top 5, you won't believe me but I'm happy about that. They've managed to nerf him without destroying the character, though I'm sure you'll find something to complain about.

This is a confusing tier list. Is it under the condition that every character is using Ferra Kameo?

 

[wsj515]

This is a confusing tier list. Is it under the assumption that every character is using Ferra Kameo?

Pretty sure Wise says its for the Ferra meta, not that everyone is using Ferra - he has a lot of explanation in the twitter thread.

 

[rifraf]

I got to say that I might have overestimated Geras' potential in the past, but I wouldn't go as far putting him bottom 3. Even my main, Li Mei being bottom 5 I feel is a stretch. I think SZ and Smoke are worse than Li Mei.

 

[Felipe_Gewehr]

Also, LOL at Mileena and Kitana being better than Ashrah.

 

[ImpostorOak]

This is my personal opinion on the beginning of year 2s meta, through the lens of someone who has played 95% online with about a 2 month break, but mostly consistent since launch.

Also, we've had a lot of BEEF about the naming of Tiers, so I tried to make it clear and poignant for anyone reading it.