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Incoming MK1 Balance Patch (Tomorrow, June 27)

CanoCano

Apprentice
How hype would it be if there was an MK game where instead of Kameos/Variations, you could choose different past or present game versions of the character. Obviously some tweaking around the edges and normalization or changes to account for universal game mechanic changes like Krushing Blows, meter, breakaway, flawless block, etc, but overall characters from each game get to keep their moves and most of their frame data/damage.
Hella hype tbh, reminds me of Alpha 3's ISMs, Trilogy kinda did that but it was hit or miss
 

Felipe_Gewehr

Twinktile
How hype would it be if there was an MK game where instead of Kameos/Variations, you could choose different past or present game versions of the character. Obviously some tweaking around the edges and normalization or changes to account for universal game mechanic changes like Krushing Blows, meter, breakaway, flawless block, etc, but overall characters from each game get to keep their moves and most of their frame data/damage.
People would just pick the best version of said character and we are back to square 1
 

rifraf

Apprentice
You made a dishonest comparison by saying that every special should be unsafe without a Kameo because Eagly is, without acknowledeging that Eagly specials are miles better than most
The issue here is it's not just eagly that got nerfed because I suppose kameo moves like Kano ball exist. Torpedo also got massively nerfed, Raiden's stormcell too. These last 2 are useless now without Goro punch or Kano ball. And, where does this end exactly? Because Tanya is arguably doing the same thing and Kung Lao and it's super annoying. Are they getting nerfed next?
 

Vulgar

Kombatant
Even if accurate, why has Mortal Kombat not grown to the extent that fighting game franchises like Street Fighter, Tekken, and Guilty Gear have? Street Fighter 6, Tekken 8, and Guilty Gear Strive have each broken attendance records in tournaments.

Look at the numbers for this year's Combo Breaker again. How can people like you pretend that everything is fine and dandy with Mortal Kombat 1?



NRS is so petrified of zoning that Quan Chi was unplayable upon release. Even with the buffs, Sonic Fox thinks that Quan Chi is the worst character in the game. Tweedy ranks him slightly higher but predicts that the character will only become worse. King Jr., who uses Quan Chi in offline and online tournaments, also claims that the character remains low tier. Quan Chi contributes nothing relevant to the meta.

Neither does Peacemaker, who now joins Quan Chi as one of the worst characters in the game. Besides, he was a top tier "zoning" character but for the wrong reason (i.e., torpedo to kameo attacks).



The vast majority of Mortal Kombat 1 characters barely function as real characters without kameos.

Mortal Kombat 9 Sub Zero would crush every Mortal Kombat 1 low tier character, including many top tier characters. If he had access to kameos, he would arguably become the best character in the game. LOL.
No, absolutely not. That's cope.

MK9 Sub Zero would get shit on by pretty much every low tier in this game. It's not even controversial. I would love to see MK9 Baraka against Li Mei. He would get dunked on. Same for Stryker, Noob, Sheeva.

Characters across the board are better designed than they've ever been.

We were talking about diversity in archetypes and you immediately shift to tier placement. I'm not arguing tier placement. I'm saying that there is a diversity of playstyles in the game. Tier placement is something else entirely.

Two characters considered low tier - Quan Chi and Li Mei - play nothing alike. Now compare Quan Chi to Geras and again - completely different playstyles. Now compare Geras to Kenshi or Kenshi to Ashrah and you'll find that none of them play alike. That's diversity.


NRS games have always been niche within the larger FGC. That's just how it is. Injustice 1 and 2 didn't pull Tekken numbers either. Even with MLG, MK9 had very low turn outs. And yet MK1 has had higher turn outs than past NRS games.

For an NRS game, MK1 is doing fine.
 

Vulgar

Kombatant
I see you. For you, if someone is being critical is equal to saying stupid things and being bitchy :laughing:

Also, you don't know me so stop talking like you know me. You're making this personal which is extremely immature. Idk how old you are, but you don't seem capable of having a conversation were others don't agree with you.

I'm ending it here with you because there's no value in getting personal. I'm here to talk about MK, not being called this or that by randoms.
I didn't call you anything. I said you posted something stupid and that you should play something you find fun.

Truly, monstrous behavior.
 

CanoCano

Apprentice
The issue here is it's not just eagly that got nerfed because I suppose kameo moves like Kano ball exist. Torpedo also got massively nerfed, Raiden's stormcell too. These last 2 are useless now without Goro punch or Kano ball. And, where does this end exactly? Because Tanya is arguably doing the same thing and Kung Lao and it's super annoying. Are they getting nerfed next?
If Torpedo and Stormcell are useless now then nothing is useful in this game, this discussion is not worth continuing since obviously neither of us are gonna agree any time soon so might as well just not waste any time
 

Marinjuana

Up rock incoming, ETA 5 minutes
Mortal Kombat 1 Update 27 June Patch Notes
Character Specific Adjustments

Main Fighters

Geras


  • Inevitable now has 21 start-up frames (down from 26)
  • Timefall (Away + Back Kick) now recovers 2 frames faster
  • Adjusted Hit Regions of Sandstorm making it easier to send the opponent forward
  • Increased the maximum range that Colliding Worlds (Fatal Blow) can teleport
Havik

  • Chaos Kick (Back Kick) now recovers 1 frame faster
  • Dislocated (Front Kick) now has 13 start-up frames (down from 15)
  • Drop Dead (Towards + Front Punch, Front Kick) now recovers 15 frames faster & has 10 less frames of blockstun
Johnny Cage


  • Show Off Parry now has 8 start-up frames (up from 6)
  • Enhanced Show Off Parry now has 4 start-up frames (up from 0) & has 15 more recovery frames
  • Show Off & Enhanced Show Off can no longer be delayed
  • Shadow Kick & Enhanced Shadow Kick now has 10 start-up frames (up from 8) & has 2 more frames of recovery on miss
Kitana

  • Reduced the combo damage scaling of Square Wave & Enhanced Square Wave
Li Mei

  • The first attack in Pankration Champion (Back Kick, Front Kick, Back Punch, Front Punch) now has 16 start-up frames (down from 19)
  • Sky Lantern after being ignited by Nova Blast now hits Mid (was High) & causes 10 more blockstun with slightly increased pushback
  • Lion’s Pounce (Towards + Front Kick) now has 3 more active frames & recovers 7 frames faster
Nitara

  • Must Feed (Front Punch, Back Punch, Back Kick) can now be 2in1 cancelled & does 20 less damage
Reptile

  • Devastating Blow (Away + Back Punch) now recovers 4 frames faster & has 5 more frames of blockstun
  • Devastating Blow Charge (Away + Back Punch, Hold Back Punch) & Devastating Blow Charge maximum (Away + Back Punch, Hold Back Punch) now recover 5 frames faster
  • Tail Of Two Hities (Back Punch, Back Kick) & Sneaky Lizard (Towards + Back Punch, Back Kick) now recovers 3 frames faster on hit & has 5 more blockstun frames
  • Acid Spit, Enhanced Acid Spit, Acid Spit Ball, & Enhanced Acid Spit Ball now have 5 more blockstun frames
Sub-Zero

  • Freezing Point (Towards + Front Punch, Back Punch, Front Kick) is now -7 on block (down from -12)
  • Blistering Blizzard (Back Punch, Front Punch) now recovers 2 frames faster & has consistent combo damage scaling for Airborne & Grounded opponents
Scorpion

  • Heavy Knee (Towards + Front Kick) cancel frame is now 2 frames earlier & has 1 less recovery frame
  • Fire Pillar Thrust (Towards + Front Kick, Back Kick) now has 18 startup frames (down from 19)
Peacemaker

  • Activate Human Torpedo! & Enhanced Human Torpedo! now have 16 start-up frames (up from 12) & 13 more frames of recovery on miss
  • Activate Human Torpedo! no longer causes stumble animation when blocked & has 10 less frames of blockstun
  • Beautiful Bird Bullet now has 10 less frames of blockstun with less pushback on block
  • Ground-Air Offensive now has 5 less frames of blockstun with less pushback on block
  • Activate Force Field now has 30 more frames of recovery
  • Anti-Gravity’s attack now does 35 damage on block (down from 50)
Kameo Fighters

Kameo Sonya


  • Leg Grab now has 25 start-up frames (down from 29), hits Overhead (was Mid), & is +1 on block (up from -9)
Kameo Stryker

  • Fixed an issue where the 2nd Grenade in Low Grenade Toss & High Grenade Toss could sometimes have additional combo gravity
  • Kuffed now has 9 less frames of recovery on miss, is +1 on block (up from -9), & Stryker reaches slightly farther for the opponent
Kameo Motaro

  • Adjusted teleport location when Main Fighter isn’t facing the opponent
Kameo Mavado

  • Increased base health value to 250 (from 200)
Cool patch. Is Shadow Kick still the fastest armor move at 10 frames?
 

Felipe_Gewehr

Twinktile
No, absolutely not. That's cope.

MK9 Sub Zero would get shit on by pretty much every low tier in this game. It's not even controversial. I would love to see MK9 Baraka against Li Mei. He would get dunked on. Same for Stryker, Noob, Sheeva.

Characters across the board are better designed than they've ever been.

We were talking about diversity in archetypes and you immediately shift to tier placement. I'm not arguing tier placement. I'm saying that there is a diversity of playstyles in the game. Tier placement is something else entirely.

Two characters considered low tier - Quan Chi and Li Mei - play nothing alike. Now compare Quan Chi to Geras and again - completely different playstyles. Now compare Geras to Kenshi or Kenshi to Ashrah and you'll find that none of them play alike. That's diversity.


NRS games have always been niche within the larger FGC. That's just how it is. Injustice 1 and 2 didn't pull Tekken numbers either. Even with MLG, MK9 had very low turn outs. And yet MK1 has had higher turn outs than past NRS games.

For an NRS game, MK1 is doing fine.
Where is your Quan Squidward pic? I legit miss it
 

CanoCano

Apprentice
No, absolutely not. That's cope.

MK9 Sub Zero would get shit on by pretty much every low tier in this game. It's not even controversial. I would love to see MK9 Baraka against Li Mei. He would get dunked on. Same for Stryker, Noob, Sheeva.
This is still also just a very dumb point of comparison since i could say some shit like SF2 Gief would beat the fuck out of SF6 Gief if you gave him SF6 mechanics but because that's obviously never going to happen it's just the FG equivalent of "my dad could beat your dad", no proof needed you just gotta trust me on this scenario i made up in my head and take it as legitimate criticism
 

M2Dave

Zoning Master
We were talking about diversity in archetypes and you immediately shift to tier placement. I'm not arguing tier placement. I'm saying that there is a diversity of playstyles in the game. Tier placement is something else entirely.
Aside from a couple of exceptions such as Geras, Johnny Cage, and Kenshi, there is no diversity to speak of. Mortal Kombat 1 has essentially inherited Mortal Kombat 11's strike/throw/low poke meta but without the gameplay mechanics that most players despised (i.e., breakaways, the wake up system, krushing blows, and flawless block attacks). The kameo characters, 85% of whom are useless at a competitive level, promote the string/special move to kameo attack meta, which is monotonous to play and watch. By contrast, Street Fighter 6's and Tekken 8's meta is far more complex and enjoyable, which is why more players choose to participate.

For an NRS game, MK1 is doing fine.
You can accept mediocrity by blaming the community and its players or you can hold the game and its developers accountable, respectfully and constructively so. Until you decide to do the former, Mortal Kombat, no matter the game, will remain a failure, competitively speaking.
 
[me, trying my best to just have a place where i can talk about this game i like without constantly having to dance around other people's negativity]:

Hey, here's a quick clip showing the impact of some of the changes for Geras:
Sorry about the music, forgot I was listening to stuff while recording.

Anyway there were lots of things that he barely couldn't snap on reaction before. One of them was Quan purple skulls, so that was the first thing I tested, and it works now! He gets real damage from S12 now, yay. And fatal blow is a pretty strong answer to tons of stuff now. I should have shown that sweep is now safe vs shadow kick too but didn't think about it till after. But, it is. His overhead is so unsafe that is nice to not have his low be unsafe in some matchups too anymore.
 

CanoCano

Apprentice
You can accept mediocrity by blaming the community and its players or you can hold the game and its developers accountable, respectfully and constructively so. Until you decide to do the former, Mortal Kombat, no matter the game, will remain a failure, competitively speaking.
Or instead of doing all these mental gymnastics you can accept that MK isn't popular with the FGC, even some of the franchise's most beloved games haven't done so hot in tournament compared to some of the most hated games from other franchises
Is it so hard to accept that no matter what the devs try to do (and they've tried A LOT), and wether we like it or not, MK just isn't going to be that popular in tournaments at least without sacrificing a lot of the things that make it unique?
 

CanoCano

Apprentice
Aside from a couple of exceptions such as Geras, Johnny Cage, and Kenshi, there is no diversity to speak of. Mortal Kombat 1 has essentially inherited Mortal Kombat 11's strike/throw/low poke meta but without the gameplay mechanics that most players despised
Name me two characters in MK12 that play the exact same, same gameplan and same tools
 

rifraf

Apprentice
MK community in a nutshell;

I love everything in MK1
I hate everything in MK1

Thankfully, these people are the minority but there're still super goofy when you read their posts. They don't allow any middle ground to exist, at all. It's either you're being too critical so go play something else or you're not being critical enough so you're a shill :laughing:

Mickey mouse logic.
 

CanoCano

Apprentice
Or instead of doing all these mental gymnastics you can accept that MK isn't popular with the FGC, even some of the franchise's most beloved games haven't done so hot in tournament compared to some of the most hated games from other franchises
Is it so hard to accept that no matter what the devs try to do (and they've tried A LOT), and wether we like it or not, MK just isn't going to be that popular in tournaments at least without sacrificing a lot of the things that make it unique?
Just the fact that the game has a Block Button has been enough to turn off many of my friends who are into other fighting games, just imagine what NRS would need to do to make it as appealing to everyone as SF or Tekken
 

CanoCano

Apprentice
MK community in a nutshell;

I love everything in MK1
I hate everything in MK1

Thankfully, these people are the minority but there're still super goofy when you read their posts. They don't allow any middle ground to exist, at all.
I wouldn't wish this kind of discourse upon my worst enemy lol
 

Vulgar

Kombatant
Aside from a couple of exceptions such as Geras, Johnny Cage, and Kenshi, there is no diversity to speak of. Mortal Kombat 1 has essentially inherited Mortal Kombat 11's strike/throw/low poke meta but without the gameplay mechanics that most players despised (i.e., breakaways, the wake up system, krushing blows, and flawless block attacks). The kameo characters, 85% of whom are useless at a competitive level, promote the string/special move to kameo attack meta, which is monotonous to play and watch. By contrast, Street Fighter 6's and Tekken 8's meta is far more complex and enjoyable, which is why more players choose to participate.



You can accept mediocrity by blaming the community and its players or you can hold the game and its developers accountable, respectfully and constructively so. Until you decide to do the former, Mortal Kombat, no matter the game, will remain a failure, competitively speaking.
You and Bill(and your various podcast audiences) have been, "holding the developers accountable" for years and yet you're not happy with tournament turnouts. Clearly, your strategy isn't as bulletproof as you seem to think.

I can't imagine what it must be like to be as wrong as you consistently are. There are plenty of examples of different kinds of archetypes and character playstyles. Anytime I mention them, you move the goal post to tier talk. Which isn't the same conversation.

It's funny that you think that the game is just string/special/kameo attack, because that's not what I saw at Final Kombat.

I saw a Sindel player using Cyrax to create looping set ups that I had never seen any character do with Cyrax before.

The Kitana player got lots of damage off whiff punishes and good spacing. Not just string/special/kameo.

If you didn't see the reads, neutral, whiff punishes, tight movement, and match up knowledge on display, then you're either not as knowledgeable on what high level play looks like as you think or you're just lying. I think it's the latter, personally.

Nowhere did I blame the community for the turn outs. I said they're higher now than they've been in the past and that NRS games have never been super popular.

Let me illustrate an example:

Injustice 2 and MKX. Two games from NRS that had a lot of money floating around in their peaks that played nothing like each other.

If it was solely a gameplay issue, surely one of them would have been the game to make NRS fighters one of the major players. If it was money, those two games had very respectable prize pools.

And yet, never did they pull Tekken or Street Fighter numbers. I just think that the vast majority of FGC players prefer certain types of games over others.

I personally don't care if we pull Tekken numbers. MK1 has weekly online events, it's at every major, it's going to be at EVO this year and will likely be at EVO next year.

I think obsessively comparing your scene to others is deeply insecure behavior. The fact of the matter is that as long as people are willing to compete for it - at majors, locals, online events, etc - the game isn't going anywhere.
 

M2Dave

Zoning Master
Name me two characters in MK12 that play the exact same, same gameplan and same tools
I am trying to think of characters do not adhere to the strike/throw/low poke meta...

As I have already said, characters like Geras and Kenshi have unique gameplay styles.

But too many characters in this game either follow a similar gameplan or they are very weak.

I would love to engage more, but I have to pack and prepare for my flight to Daytona.

If any of you so-called critics still have two testicles left, Tom and I would love to debate you on the podcast.

Wish me luck (in Tekken)!

Edit:

It's funny that you think that the game is just string/special/kameo attack, because that's not what I saw at Final Kombat.
Hmm, torpedo to knives?

LOL