Sub-Zero General Discussion

[OldManFGC]

So to be clear you use Input Shortcuts ON and Alternate Kontrols Off and Negative Edge OFF and Short input window?

Yeah the damage is definitely different from vids I've seen but they where only getting 40-47% off BnB's and other chars where getting 50%+
Where they really that afraid of Clone, so pros and casuals got it nerfed?

I use Medium Timing, Input & Button Shortcuts On, and everything else Off.

As for the nerfing, couldn't say, honestly.

 

[Eji1700]

Does anyone have Sub Zeros Beta frame data to compare to Day 1 Release Sub?
One of the things MKTomBrady said on his debate with FATE was that: the reasons Sub Zero got nerfed so hard was Casuals not Pro's

I was looking into this and there are several pros that complained about Sub Zero. No shade against Rewind, he a cool dude and eventually labs up his options vs chars but gets a little salty vs friends on first couple sets vs a char.
Like Top level players and newer players that placed Top 8's and even placed 1st in a offline event (non major) like TGC|Stryker which is an AHole.
This is my response to his idiotic tweet:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1733251253398909047

But I'm noticing this wasn't just Casuals complaining about Kameos or Sub Zero, this was several notable top players and newer competitive players doing okay. Obviously Casuals complained as well but when you have 10+ top 50 players complaining and Casuals complaining I think that makes it an easy Nerf decision for NRS.

Anyone got the frame data for Sub during Beta, I didn't get to play it on Beta?
I've heard two different opinions:

1. Sub was broken in Beta (which I think is hyperbole)
2. Sub was just strong not broke, how he should be today.

I just want to confirm.

This isn't something I only see about Sub Zero, I see numerous pros complain about Stryker, Lao, Goro Kameos and Johnny(too many to count), Sindel(a few I won't name), Kenshi(Obvious), Prepatch they complained about Baraka and Raiden damage while using Johnny and Kenshi. And they got nerfed but Johnny and Kenshi?
This goes on, there was complaints about Rain as well, and some even call for gutting the characters. Only Sonic, Xombat, Dragon and SylverRye defended the top tiers said they have counters and not to gut the characters and offered ways to tone the Kameos putting them over the edge.

So is the problem casuals or is it the community being whiny that are unwilling to lab up options vs them. One of them was a Kenshi main telling them "you can poke/Armor at some points during Sento, it's easy" while complaining about Sindel being Broke.

But anyone has Beta Sub frame data please share here!!!

Sub being able to dump meter into doing deadly vapors loops for extreme damage was both a balance issue and lame.

Buuuut rather than just fix that, they took him out back and broke his legs.

 

[Bulletz4Breakfast]

It wasn’t just casuals. A lot of pros said he was broken besides the ones playing him.

If you want the real spill, MKX (Maybe even INJ 1) through MK11 were training wheel games. Those games had mechanics that were aimed at minimizing the skill gap.

Now MK1 is a return to normalcy. And a lot of people are realizing they’re not as good as they thought they were and they can’t stand it. Pros and casuals alike.

I couldn't agree more. I played in MK9 and MKX and used characters with dash cancels and was pretty decent, I wasn't doing 1 frame links but always plus.
MK11 combos and mechanics was braindead potato. I hated it because of the restrictions compared to older games and the toned down nature of characters and the poke/throw meta with Krushing Blows I also hated the cancel window allowing you to hit block long after you see if the move hit or was blocked, it made everything hit confirmable.
MK1 went in a higher execution direction and I love it, they put some depth into characters, I'm learning new tech every week. Love Kameos while some hate they can make unsafe stuff safe I love it, there are garbage characters base that are saved by this assist feature and I think it's the only thing holding character balance so close other than a handful of characters.

Only issue I'm having is the input errors with Subs D1 but I'll have to alter how I input stuff or change settings back to Input Shortcuts OFF. Any tips, it's probably me and how I input.
Maybe I should get that D-Pad mod by Beaver customs to make the 4 D-pad buttons individual and not fully attached

It's only $12 just unsure what screw driver I need to disassemble:

PS5 DualSense D-Buttons

The D-Button modification replaces the stock plastic D-Pad of the PS5 DualSense controller with four (4) separate solid buttons. This helps prevent accidental presses of the other directions, while increasing the quality of the button press. HOW TO INSTALL D-BUTTONS:Each DualSense D-Button is...

battlebeavercustoms.com

 

[Amplified$hotz]

I couldn't agree more. I played in MK9 and MKX and used characters with dash cancels and was pretty decent, I wasn't doing 1 frame links but always plus.
MK11 combos and mechanics was braindead potato. I hated it because of the restrictions compared to older games and the toned down nature of characters and the poke/throw meta with Krushing Blows I also hated the cancel window allowing you to hit block long after you see if the move hit or was blocked, it made everything hit confirmable.
MK1 went in a higher execution direction and I love it, they put some depth into characters, I'm learning new tech every week. Love Kameos while some hate they can make unsafe stuff safe I love it, there are garbage characters base that are saved by this assist feature and I think it's the only thing holding character balance so close other than a handful of characters.

Only issue I'm having is the input errors with Subs D1 but I'll have to alter how I input stuff or change settings back to Input Shortcuts OFF. Any tips, it's probably me and how I input.
Maybe I should get that D-Pad mod by Beaver customs to make the 4 D-pad buttons individual and not fully attached

Yeah I agree. People need to understand freedom in games means freedom for others to play in a way they might not like.

Freedom to create strategies they may feel don’t belong in the game. Just because they don’t find it fun, doesn’t mean others don’t.

They cry about strong characters/strategies and then when it gets nerfed it’s “NRS is killing the game it’s so boring now”.

 

[Bulletz4Breakfast]

Yeah I agree. People need to understand freedom in games means freedom for others to play in a way they might not like.

Freedom to create strategies they may feel don’t belong in the game. Just because they don’t find it fun, doesn’t mean others don’t.

They cry about strong characters/strategies and then when it gets nerfed it’s “NRS is killing the game it’s so boring now”.

There's always been complainers but I miss MK9 era where pros and up in coming pros just labbed up the strategies that locked them up and found ways to counter it, they stuck with their mains through it all.
Now it seems they just hate what fighting games are, the everything before the touch, the kind games, setplay, neutral. Mix has always existed and zoning/space control was the only counter to S Tiers Rushdown.
It blows my mind that I still see players complaining about Sub Zero when they nerfed literally everything he had in Beta all his previous games strategies like clone corner lockdown, defensive options, his pressure. Not saying he's not viable but he objectively does everything worse than the top half of cast.
How could we get Sub buffs without a mass riot? I want clone to be a bit longer like 7 frames and recovery to be less punishable. Sub can be zoned out or countered with space control Ashrah it's just characters like Johnny that would suffer if his clone was stronger.
I would consider a character broke if they 7-3 the roster with most matchups favorable and hard to overcome. That's absolutely not the case with Subby even if his clone was back to Beta from what I've seen. I mean his damage scaling is quite possibly the worst in the game and Subs clone is still punished by everyone on reaction even when he cancels from D1 on hit (+30 advantage) that's probably one of the most unsafe moves I can think of since MK9.
I miss having Sub Zero the counter to Rushdown oppressive chars. He's just running away trying not to get hit while taking unfavorable risks to try and get a life lead. Again he's viable with Kameos but com'on.

 

[Amplified$hotz]

Sub-Zero got a 17th placement. We’ll take that.

 

[augenmann]

Sub & Darius. Do you think this corner set ups are worth it? I feel we loose a lot of midscreen pressure..

 

[Bulletz4Breakfast]

Sub & Darius. Do you think this corner set ups are worth it? I feel we loose a lot of midscreen pressure..

What pressure I know of Kameo pressure but not Sub Zero pressure?
More like pressure from me worrying I'll get punished playing Sub opimally
For example pretty much every string Sub has even button into Armor is punishable even if I use Stryker to make it safe.
Ashrah has Invulnerability during armor and she can Flash Parry, strings, gaps, staggers, poke into armor pretty much everything Sub does:
Subs D1xxArmorSlide

F123 punished by 40% combo:

For what it's worth I use Goro(decent damage, makes B2/B3 safe, can combo off anything, restands), Cyrax(50/50 Bomb Setups and Freeze allows net combo) and Tremor(Gives 55% Reset into a throw into clone for another 25%) with Subby

 

[OldManFGC]

There's always been complainers but I miss MK9 era where pros and up in coming pros just labbed up the strategies that locked them up and found ways to counter it, they stuck with their mains through it all.
Now it seems they just hate what fighting games are, the everything before the touch, the kind games, setplay, neutral. Mix has always existed and zoning/space control was the only counter to S Tiers Rushdown.
It blows my mind that I still see players complaining about Sub Zero when they nerfed literally everything he had in Beta all his previous games strategies like clone corner lockdown, defensive options, his pressure. Not saying he's not viable but he objectively does everything worse than the top half of cast.
How could we get Sub buffs without a mass riot? I want clone to be a bit longer like 7 frames and recovery to be less punishable. Sub can be zoned out or countered with space control Ashrah it's just characters like Johnny that would suffer if his clone was stronger.
I would consider a character broke if they 7-3 the roster with most matchups favorable and hard to overcome. That's absolutely not the case with Subby even if his clone was back to Beta from what I've seen. I mean his damage scaling is quite possibly the worst in the game and Subs clone is still punished by everyone on reaction even when he cancels from D1 on hit (+30 advantage) that's probably one of the most unsafe moves I can think of since MK9.
I miss having Sub Zero the counter to Rushdown oppressive chars. He's just running away trying not to get hit while taking unfavorable risks to try and get a life lead. Again he's viable with Kameos but com'on.

My dream buff is for Enhanced Klone to be as fast as Johnny's Enhanced Parry so I can blow up gaps with it. Realistically, I just want it to be 1 bar and safe. Also, a bit less damage scaling and he's good, imo.

 

[OldManFGC]

Sub & Darius. Do you think this corner set ups are worth it? I feel we loose a lot of midscreen pressure..

I think it's interesting, but agree, you lose too many other tools.

 

[OldManFGC]

What pressure I know of Kameo pressure but not Sub Zero pressure?
More like pressure from me worrying I'll get punished playing Sub opimally
For example pretty much every string Sub has even button into Armor is punishable even if I use Stryker to make it safe.
Ashrah has Invulnerability during armor and she can Flash Parry, strings, gaps, staggers, poke into armor pretty much everything Sub does:
Subs D1xxArmorSlide

F123 punished by 40% combo:

For what it's worth I use Goro(decent damage, makes B2/B3 safe, can combo off anything, restands), Cyrax(50/50 Bomb Setups and Freeze allows net combo) and Tremor(Gives 55% Reset into a throw into clone for another 25%) with Subby

Flash Parry?? I love Flash Parrys....

As for safety, only LK and Johnny can punish your -7 strings, and Johnny only gets a D1. And that's of course assuming you don't end in Klone or Kameo after hit confirming it's blocked. What are you finding unsafe? One thing I like about Sub is how safe he is compared to a lot of the rest of the cast.

 

[Eji1700]

I still maintain that sub as is will not be taking a top 8 at a major.

Welp seems I was wrong. Haven't had time to watch much yet, but limbodawg made it work. From the little I've seen, looks like people weren't armor punishing clone (armoring through it after it was out, yes, punishing on reaction, no), but wrong is wrong. Good shit.

Edit- NVM i can't read.

 

[Amplified$hotz]

Welp seems I was wrong. Haven't had time to watch much yet, but limbodawg made it work. From the little I've seen, looks like people weren't armor punishing clone (armoring through it after it was out, yes, punishing on reaction, no), but wrong is wrong. Good shit.

He did? From what I saw he placed 17th.

 

[Eji1700]

He did? From what I saw he placed 17th.

Ahh shit so he did, and it was posted above. I can't read.

 

[Bulletz4Breakfast]

Flash Parry?? I love Flash Parrys....

As for safety, only LK and Johnny can punish your -7 strings, and Johnny only gets a D1. And that's of course assuming you don't end in Klone or Kameo after hit confirming it's blocked. What are you finding unsafe? One thing I like about Sub is how safe he is compared to a lot of the rest of the cast.

He's unsafe vs some top tiers on a lot, can't use clone unless it's reactionary. Pokes are full combo punishable by Sindel reversal punish and Ashrah, gaps in everything but F12. Staggers full combo punishable. I'm just talking about his pressure not his runaway compared to top tiers, it's very risky for low reward to enforce pressure and once you lose neutral it's in the blender into very bad options for you.
What do you use that's not punishable?

 

[OldManFGC]

He's unsafe vs some top tiers on a lot, can't use clone unless it's reactionary. Pokes are full combo punishable by Sindel reversal punish and Ashrah, gaps in everything but F12. Staggers full combo punishable. I'm just talking about his pressure not his runaway compared to top tiers, it's very risky for low reward to enforce pressure and once you lose neutral it's in the blender into very bad options for you.
What do you use that's not punishable?

I prefer using Klone like a Parry, so the punish issue doesn't happen as much. And if used at the end of block string and the opponent tries to jump to punish you can use Sonya (or another Kameo) to clip them out of the sky. It's true that some characters can still punish it meterlessly but getting to reset neutral for free as Sub is pretty amazing, so I think it's fine that some can stop it. Don't get me wrong, I'd be perfectly happy with it being safe instead =)

F12 is one of his primary footsie strings, so not an issue. I'd say B34 is his other, and if I was wishing, it'd be nice to not have a gap, but it's decent to stagger with and mix in B2 some. Also, you can wait to use it when the opponent doesn't have bar for armor to blow you up. Plus, at only -5 you can steal your turn back with Enhanced Slide. And of course Dive Kick is really good for neutral too. If they start up blocking you can throw for extra damage.

21 I mainly use on confirmed dive kick hits at range (but 34 is honestly better since it's meterless with Sonya), so the gap doesn't matter. 12 is just for punishing, so again, the gap doesn't matter. You can of course use these strings when the opponent doesn't have meter, and if they do have meter, in some cases you can armor back when they try to blow up your string. 21 is also a good punish string due to its extended hitbox, or poke into throw since it's 0. So it's got some other uses too. Interestingly, the OH in these strings doesn't mix too well with Slide because of too large a difference in frames, but oh well.

For down pokes, with the right spacing you're usually safe, especially with D1's range. Or you can use D4 which is almost always safe.

So, in terms of strings/buttons, I'd say he feels a lot safer to me than say Reptile or Kitana where their primary string/s can be armored through, or heck, even Tanya, who Johnny can just Enhanced Parry right through.

I should say that I believe Sub-Zero to be a zoning/counter zoning/whiff punish character, so that affects how I view his tools.

 

[The Highlander]

Sorry for the delay, but here you go:

Not the best video, but hopefully it gives you some ideas. Any questions, let me know.

Nice!! those ice ball conversions were super cool, definitely stealing a bunch of these. How do you get the sonya shot to connect to your combo? I can't seem to get the timing on that...

Btw you can eek out a little more dmg on the low launcher (and slide) into sonya. Instead of j12 j12 4 slide - You go b2 j12 4 slide. It's not much more but sub needs all he can get.

 

[OldManFGC]

Nice!! those ice ball conversions were super cool, definitely stealing a bunch of these. How do you get the sonya shot to connect to your combo? I can't seem to get the timing on that...

Btw you can eek out a little more dmg on the low launcher (and slide) into sonya. Instead of j12 j12 4 slide - You go b2 j12 4 slide. It's not much more but sub needs all he can get.

Oh damn, how did I not realize that for Slide?? That's sick, thank you! So satisfying to finally get (basically) 25% out of it for no additional bar. I also like how at certain ranges it requires waiting on the Sonya call. I always felt like I was having to mash her at the same time as Slide. Btw, you can actually do F12 at the end instead of 4 for like 1% more damage, lol.

As for the Sonya charge shot, I like to hold forward while I'm doing it, and then the second I see Sub move forward I let go of her, and she'll connect into the follow up. Hope that helps!

 

[Bulletz4Breakfast]

I prefer using Klone like a Parry, so the punish issue doesn't happen as much. And if used at the end of block string and the opponent tries to jump to punish you can use Sonya (or another Kameo) to clip them out of the sky. It's true that some characters can still punish it meterlessly but getting to reset neutral for free as Sub is pretty amazing, so I think it's fine that some can stop it. Don't get me wrong, I'd be perfectly happy with it being safe instead =)

F12 is one of his primary footsie strings, so not an issue. I'd say B34 is his other, and if I was wishing, it'd be nice to not have a gap, but it's decent to stagger with and mix in B2 some. Also, you can wait to use it when the opponent doesn't have bar for armor to blow you up. Plus, at only -5 you can steal your turn back with Enhanced Slide. And of course Dive Kick is really good for neutral too. If they start up blocking you can throw for extra damage.

21 I mainly use on confirmed dive kick hits at range (but 34 is honestly better since it's meterless with Sonya), so the gap doesn't matter. 12 is just for punishing, so again, the gap doesn't matter. You can of course use these strings when the opponent doesn't have meter, and if they do have meter, in some cases you can armor back when they try to blow up your string. 21 is also a good punish string due to its extended hitbox, or poke into throw since it's 0. So it's got some other uses too. Interestingly, the OH in these strings doesn't mix too well with Slide because of too large a difference in frames, but oh well.

For down pokes, with the right spacing you're usually safe, especially with D1's range. Or you can use D4 which is almost always safe.

So, in terms of strings/buttons, I'd say he feels a lot safer to me than say Reptile or Kitana where their primary string/s can be armored through, or heck, even Tanya, who Johnny can just Enhanced Parry right through.

I should say that I believe Sub-Zero to be a zoning/counter zoning/whiff punish character, so that affects how I view his tools.

I was talking offline for offensive pressure, I just tested clone online and no one punishes it on Master.
Any time I use Poke Clone or F12 Clone randomly I get punished, only placed I could use it in is in large gaps, on reaction to a slow move that's advancing or them jumping in.
Main problem characters are Ashrah which gets in for free with meterless astral projection punish, Johnny can meter shadow kick on reaction and do it with hype active, Kenshi can hit through on reaction from poke/F12xxClone oh I forgot Ashrah's S2 and B2 reach through and punish poke into clone on reaction if they do it like their counter poking and Sindel completely ignores clones existence and this is from a former Sindel main(I happen to know Lao hat/Sindel is getting nerfed) I picked up Sub cuz he's always been a favorite but my favorite version of him was MK9.

Here's what I mean about the poke into clone:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1732821445078626612

And that's D1xxClone on hit which is over +30 for Sub imagine how many punish on block?
But I'll try some of your tips

 

[OldManFGC]

I was talking offline for offensive pressure, I just tested clone online and no one punishes it on Master.
Any time I use Poke Clone or F12 Clone randomly I get punished, only placed I could use it in is in large gaps, on reaction to a slow move that's advancing or them jumping in.
Main problem characters are Ashrah which gets in for free with meterless astral projection punish, Johnny can meter shadow kick on reaction and do it with hype active, Kenshi can hit through on reaction from poke/F12xxClone oh I forgot Ashrah's S2 and B2 reach through and punish poke into clone on reaction if they do it like their counter poking and Sindel completely ignores clones existence and this is from a former Sindel main(I happen to know Lao hat/Sindel is getting nerfed) I picked up Sub cuz he's always been a favorite but my favorite version of him was MK9.

Here's what I mean about the poke into clone:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1732821445078626612

And that's D1xxClone on hit which is over +30 for Sub imagine how many punish on block?
But I'll try some of your tips

Oh, for sure, I'm familiar with those punishes, thanks to you posting that before =)

LIke you say though, a lot of players aren't familiar, so you can knowledge check them. Once they are, you can switch to the safer stuff I mentioned and using Klone in a different way. As for Ashrah and Johnny, I recommend zoning both. I find that most Ashrah's become rather lost when they can't just mix you with overhead. Also, Sub is one of the few characters that can punish Ashrah's wakeup, and Johnny's wakeup is trash unless he has two bars. In addition, you can meterlessly full combo punish any Johnny string into Low Hat with neutral jump Dive Kick. And lastly, in a lot of cases, I'll happily take a meter from either of those characters to do a single hit to me on a Klone punish to get them off of breaker or other options since few armored moves lead to oki, usual exceptions being Kung Lao, Tanya, and Sub of course =)

Hope this helps, and all the best with your games! I think once you get used to it, you'll be racking up wins pretty quickly online, and offline too, when adjusting based on the opponent's knowledge.

 

[Bulletz4Breakfast]

Oh, for sure, I'm familiar with those punishes, thanks to you posting that before =)

LIke you say though, a lot of players aren't familiar, so you can knowledge check them. Once they are, you can switch to the safer stuff I mentioned and using Klone in a different way. As for Ashrah and Johnny, I recommend zoning both. I find that most Ashrah's become rather lost when they can't just mix you with overhead. Also, Sub is one of the few characters that can punish Ashrah's wakeup, and Johnny's wakeup is trash unless he has two bars. In addition, you can meterlessly full combo punish any Johnny string into Low Hat with neutral jump Dive Kick. And lastly, in a lot of cases, I'll happily take a meter from either of those characters to do a single hit to me on a Klone punish to get them off of breaker or other options since few armored moves lead to oki, usual exceptions being Kung Lao, Tanya, and Sub of course =)

Hope this helps, and all the best with your games! I think once you get used to it, you'll be racking up wins pretty quickly online, and offline too, when adjusting based on the opponent's knowledge.

It does help and thanks
but when I played Sindel/Ashrah vs Sub I was able to meterlessly punish subs clone and Divekick:

But onlines another story. The Netcode is so trash I can get away with murder

And this is what I was talking about with meterless punishes on clone the ones I used meter are definitely worth it and put Sub in bad situations and even when I use Stryker to cover it vs Reptile I can still punish and knock Kameo out for free:

 

[Amplified$hotz]

Don’t know if I agree with this, but I’d say the best kameos for Sub-Zero either buff his damage or make him harder to reach. Sareena does both.

 

[Amplified$hotz]

if you’re using Sonya, don’t neglect hit confirming into her leg grab to save a bar. Some nice meterless damage there.

 

[Bulletz4Breakfast]

if you’re using Sonya, don’t neglect hit confirming into her leg grab to save a bar. Some nice meterless damage there.

Sik is a good player but he has a really bad mindset, if you ask him he is God among men for using Sub vs any character because in his mind Sub is absolute trash and not viable and every other character is broke compared.
I do think Lao hat does do a lot for Sub, it gets him in, makes his Overhead a true 50/50 safe launcher and launches off B34 into at least 24% and also launched off his slide for 24%
But I understand his frustration because most Kameos don't fix all of Subs issues because they are core problems with his moves like Clone recovery

 

[Bulletz4Breakfast]

if you’re using Sonya, don’t neglect hit confirming into her leg grab to save a bar. Some nice meterless damage there.

Remember the Lin Kuei Master player that beat Honeybee and Sikander with Sub?

He did a 44% combo for 1 Bar using Sareena. It's not groundbreaking but it's something: