Sub-Zero General Discussion

[Bulletz4Breakfast]

@Amplified$hotz
It looks like up Kopter is so damage scaled with Subs damage scale that you only get 20% off the Sweep.
You can do B2 into Up Kopter but don't get more damage than base Sub Zero.
You can get Bomb setups and do 40% midscreen off overhead and 35% off B4
The bomb is +71 on block

Here is the Tremor Forced Reset into Forced HTB that does 55%:

 

[Bulletz4Breakfast]

I agree.

However I do think Sub-Zero could place top 8 if the stars align. Because most people (even so called pros) don’t lab as much as they want you to think they do.

However, viability to me is the likelihood of a character winning a tournament. Not just placing. In my opinion real competitors travel to win. I think his chances of winning a major are next to nothing.

Hopefully there are buffs when Quan Chi drops this month.

I think Sub can place Top 8, he has on non majors that are pretty Stacked (K7 Showoff and Lin Kuei Master)
But I doubt many Sub mains are running around and will pay $1000 to go to majors to use Sub Zero against Characters with more dirt.
Sub has mix and decent runaway and a decent mid for throw/hit mix but he has to risk himself for little reward just to pressure. S Tiers put others in high risk situations that don't guarantee a combo like: poke into potential mix or backdash into maybe something, armor for 10% (all characters but 3 not counting Sub have launching Armor moves) so Subs 10-20% off armor depending on Kameo vs S Tiers dishing out 50% when they guess right or you guess wrong.

I really hope Sub, Scorpion, Nitara and Reptile get buffs.
Most Kameos need buffs hopefully summon to ambush.
You think any other characters need buffs?

 

[Bulletz4Breakfast]

I think this guy is high AF, it's people like this that piss me off, destroy other chars as long as it's not mine. Dude using Stryker with a S Tier:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1732553616815423739

 

[Amplified$hotz]

@Amplified$hotz
It looks like up Kopter is so damage scaled with Subs damage scale that you only get 20% off the Sweep.
You can do B2 into Up Kopter but don't get more damage than base Sub Zero.
You can get Bomb setups and do 40% midscreen off overhead and 35% off B4
The bomb is +71 on block

Here is the Tremor Forced Reset into Forced HTB that does 55%:

Nice thank you.

 

[LionHeart V1]

I think this guy is high AF, it's people like this that piss me off, destroy other chars as long as it's not mine. Dude using Stryker with a S Tier:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1732553616815423739

I find people complaining about subzero in MK1 embarrassing. He's arguably the easiest he's even been to deal with. Everything he does is unsafe and reactable and the character is high risk/low reward.

Meanwhile 15 second block infinite kenshi hits you once and the game can be over, but people would rather fight that than deal with ice clone. I don't get it.

 

[Amplified$hotz]

I think Sub can place Top 8, he has on non majors that are pretty Stacked (K7 Showoff and Lin Kuei Master)
But I doubt many Sub mains are running around and will pay $1000 to go to majors to use Sub Zero against Characters with more dirt.
Sub has mix and decent runaway and a decent mid for throw/hit mix but he has to risk himself for little reward just to pressure. S Tiers put others in high risk situations that don't guarantee a combo like: poke into potential mix or backdash into maybe something, armor for 10% (all characters but 3 not counting Sub have launching Armor moves) so Subs 10-20% off armor depending on Kameo vs S Tiers dishing out 50% when they guess right or you guess wrong.

I really hope Sub, Scorpion, Nitara and Reptile get buffs.
Most Kameos need buffs hopefully summon to ambush.
You think any other characters need buffs?

Yeah. There are some really hard strategies to fight in this game (even while playing a top tier), and none of Sub-Zero’s strategies come close.

 

[Amplified$hotz]

I think this guy is high AF, it's people like this that piss me off, destroy other chars as long as it's not mine. Dude using Stryker with a S Tier:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1732553616815423739

That guy is a scrub. All he does is cry. Someone really needs to tell these players they’re not as good as they think they are, and that’s OK.

Sub-Zero players paid for a copy of the game the same way he did, and should be able to enjoy a good character the same way he enjoys whoever he plays.

 

[Gito666]

I find people complaining about subzero in MK1 embarrassing. He's arguably the easiest he's even been to deal with. Everything he does is unsafe and reactable and the character is high risk/low reward.

Meanwhile 15 second block infinite kenshi hits you once and the game can be over, but people would rather fight that than deal with ice clone. I don't get it.

This x 1000. Idk about you guys, but I CONTINUE to get shit-talked on the mic, whether I'm winning or losing as sub. If you're losing to me: as LionHeart said, YOU are the one with the skill issue, not me. And if you're winning: congrats! You beat the worst character in the game. Does that make you feel good? Granted, when I lose, often times the other player has outplayed me, but still... we play Sub! You gotta add insult to injury and kick us while we're down?! Just say ggs and move on!

 

[OldManFGC]

Hi mate, is it possible for you to publish bnb combo with sonya and tremor for sub?
Thanks beforehand.

Sorry for the delay, but here you go:

Not the best video, but hopefully it gives you some ideas. Any questions, let me know.

 

[OldManFGC]

I think Sub can place Top 8, he has on non majors that are pretty Stacked (K7 Showoff and Lin Kuei Master)
But I doubt many Sub mains are running around and will pay $1000 to go to majors to use Sub Zero against Characters with more dirt.
Sub has mix and decent runaway and a decent mid for throw/hit mix but he has to risk himself for little reward just to pressure. S Tiers put others in high risk situations that don't guarantee a combo like: poke into potential mix or backdash into maybe something, armor for 10% (all characters but 3 not counting Sub have launching Armor moves) so Subs 10-20% off armor depending on Kameo vs S Tiers dishing out 50% when they guess right or you guess wrong.

I really hope Sub, Scorpion, Nitara and Reptile get buffs.
Most Kameos need buffs hopefully summon to ambush.
You think any other characters need buffs?

Completely agree about Kameos. I think that's the big balance problem currently with the game. Though, blocking for 20 seconds against Kenshi with unreactable 50/50s into death, so you have to runaway is boring and not ideal gameplay. As for characters that also need some love, I feel bad for Kitana and all her gaps.

 

[OldManFGC]

I agree.

However I do think Sub-Zero could place top 8 if the stars align. Because most people (even so called pros) don’t lab as much as they want you to think they do.

However, viability to me is the likelihood of a character winning a tournament. Not just placing. In my opinion real competitors travel to win. I think his chances of winning a major are next to nothing.

Hopefully there are buffs when Quan Chi drops this month.

Hmm, I usually think of viability as top 8, or perhaps top 3 since that's in the money. I do think Sub can do that in his current form if played optimally, especially since he can full combo punish Lao hat in strings which so many people are currently relying on.

 

[Amplified$hotz]

Hmm, I usually think of viability as top 8, or perhaps top 3 since that's in the money. I do think Sub can do that in his current form if played optimally, especially since he can full combo punish Lao hat in strings which so many people are currently relying on.

You may be right. No one is being played optimally in month 3. Let’s see what happens.

However I do expect Sub to receive buffs before the game turns a year old so we might not get to see it.

 

[OldManFGC]

You may be right. No one is being played optimally in month 3. Let’s see what happens.

However I do expect Sub to receive buffs before the game turns a year old so we might not get to see it.

Agreed. And with how some other characters play, it's perfectly reasonable for Sub to get some buffs.

 

[Bulletz4Breakfast]

Ok here are the midscreen Sub Cyrax Bomb setup combos I found last night:

35% from B4 low launched by bomb:

40% from B2 Overhead Bomb setup (must Hold R1) until you hit B2 first hit:

If they block these it's +71
If they jump bomb gets em
If they backdash bomb gets em
Only thing they can do is Armor and you can bait it hard back into same setups or the throw into freeze.
But this is a way to get more damage midscreen and definitely more damage in corner with 60% setups

 

[Amplified$hotz]

Ok here are the midscreen Sub Cyrax Bomb setup combos I found last night:

35% from B4 low launched by bomb:

40% from B2 Overhead Bomb setup (must Hold R1) until you hit B2 first hit:

If they block these it's +71
If they jump bomb gets em
If they backdash bomb gets em
Only thing they can do is Armor and you can bait it hard back into same setups or the throw into freeze.
But this is a way to get more damage midscreen and definitely more damage in corner with 60% setups

This is really good. You can also push grab them into it. Also, if you cancelled b2 into iceball instead of doing the full b2, would it still combo?

Personally I would combo into the jump 21 ice klone freeze and then set it up. Forcing them to guess on wake-up.

 

[Bulletz4Breakfast]

Does anyone have Sub Zeros Beta frame data to compare to Day 1 Release Sub?
One of the things MKTomBrady said on his debate with FATE was that: the reasons Sub Zero got nerfed so hard was Casuals not Pro's

I was looking into this and there are several pros that complained about Sub Zero. No shade against Rewind, he a cool dude and eventually labs up his options vs chars but gets a little salty vs friends on first couple sets vs a char.
Like Top level players and newer players that placed Top 8's and even placed 1st in a offline event (non major) like TGC|Stryker which is an AHole.
This is my response to his idiotic tweet:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1733251253398909047

But I'm noticing this wasn't just Casuals complaining about Kameos or Sub Zero, this was several notable top players and newer competitive players doing okay. Obviously Casuals complained as well but when you have 10+ top 50 players complaining and Casuals complaining I think that makes it an easy Nerf decision for NRS.

Anyone got the frame data for Sub during Beta, I didn't get to play it on Beta?
I've heard two different opinions:

1. Sub was broken in Beta (which I think is hyperbole)
2. Sub was just strong not broke, how he should be today.

I just want to confirm.

This isn't something I only see about Sub Zero, I see numerous pros complain about Stryker, Lao, Goro Kameos and Johnny(too many to count), Sindel(a few I won't name), Kenshi(Obvious), Prepatch they complained about Baraka and Raiden damage while using Johnny and Kenshi. And they got nerfed but Johnny and Kenshi?
This goes on, there was complaints about Rain as well, and some even call for gutting the characters. Only Sonic, Xombat, Dragon and SylverRye defended the top tiers said they have counters and not to gut the characters and offered ways to tone the Kameos putting them over the edge.

So is the problem casuals or is it the community being whiny that are unwilling to lab up options vs them. One of them was a Kenshi main telling them "you can poke/Armor at some points during Sento, it's easy" while complaining about Sindel being Broke.

But anyone has Beta Sub frame data please share here!!!

 

[Bulletz4Breakfast]

This is really good. You can also push grab them into it. Also, if you cancelled b2 into iceball instead of doing the full b2, would it still combo?

Personally I would combo into the jump 21 ice klone freeze and then set it up. Forcing them to guess on wake-up.

I couldn't do 21 ice clone cuz it don't connect for me midscreen, only connects in corner for me. If you can connect 21xxClone midscreen please post with this bomb setups.
The push grab is heavily damage scaled like I struggled to get 16% no joke and this is with several chars not just Sub Zero.
So I'm sticking with throw into freeze setups and bomb setups for his safest mixups and higher damage.

 

[OldManFGC]

Aaaand of course I see new Sonya optimals the day I post my video, lol. Video has been updated with those, as well as Klone setups at the end. Happy grinding for the end of the KL season!

 

[Bulletz4Breakfast]

Aaaand of course I see new Sonya optimals the day I post my video, lol. Video has been updated with those, as well as Klone setups at the end. Happy grinding for the end of the KL season!

Hey can you all help me with something?
Ok I play like 7 characters and really want to make Sub Zero work as my main along with Quan of course.
But I'm having input errors. I have Input Shortcuts ON with 5/7 characters I use and prefer it with Sub Zero because he has dumb cancel advantage on several strings where it won't cancel consistently.
But having Input Shortcuts ON causes me to Clone/Ice-Ball when I quickly go from something to D1?
This can't happen in my locals or online tournaments or on sets.
Anyone got any tips, I tried in practice turning Short input window from Medium but it didn't seem to stop it.

Am I just gonna have to turn off input Shortcuts and just completely relearn Sub and inputs. I like doing D+B into F3 to instantly slide from crouch to go under high projectiles while ducking and can only do this with input Shortcuts ON and it helps some tight links as well.

I don't have this issue with Sindel but she doesn't have specials linked to her D3 or just doesn't come out from D3, Sub Zero has Clone and Ice Ball that will register from simply being a tiny bit off on Down Input because it registers D+B or D+F instead of D+1

 

[OldManFGC]

Does anyone have Sub Zeros Beta frame data to compare to Day 1 Release Sub?
One of the things MKTomBrady said on his debate with FATE was that: the reasons Sub Zero got nerfed so hard was Casuals not Pro's

I was looking into this and there are several pros that complained about Sub Zero. No shade against Rewind, he a cool dude and eventually labs up his options vs chars but gets a little salty vs friends on first couple sets vs a char.
Like Top level players and newer players that placed Top 8's and even placed 1st in a offline event (non major) like TGC|Stryker which is an AHole.
This is my response to his idiotic tweet:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1733251253398909047

But I'm noticing this wasn't just Casuals complaining about Kameos or Sub Zero, this was several notable top players and newer competitive players doing okay. Obviously Casuals complained as well but when you have 10+ top 50 players complaining and Casuals complaining I think that makes it an easy Nerf decision for NRS.

Anyone got the frame data for Sub during Beta, I didn't get to play it on Beta?
I've heard two different opinions:

1. Sub was broken in Beta (which I think is hyperbole)
2. Sub was just strong not broke, how he should be today.

I just want to confirm.

This isn't something I only see about Sub Zero, I see numerous pros complain about Stryker, Lao, Goro Kameos and Johnny(too many to count), Sindel(a few I won't name), Kenshi(Obvious), Prepatch they complained about Baraka and Raiden damage while using Johnny and Kenshi. And they got nerfed but Johnny and Kenshi?
This goes on, there was complaints about Rain as well, and some even call for gutting the characters. Only Sonic, Xombat, Dragon and SylverRye defended the top tiers said they have counters and not to gut the characters and offered ways to tone the Kameos putting them over the edge.

So is the problem casuals or is it the community being whiny that are unwilling to lab up options vs them. One of them was a Kenshi main telling them "you can poke/Armor at some points during Sento, it's easy" while complaining about Sindel being Broke.

But anyone has Beta Sub frame data please share here!!!

The only frame data I remember from the beta is F1 being 12 frames. I'd also say it was #2, but I don't think he necessarily needs all of that to be viable now. Though, Klone lasting long enough you could EX Slide someone into it was fun =)

 

[OldManFGC]

Hey can you all help me with something?
Ok I play like 7 characters and really want to make Sub Zero work as my main along with Quan of course.
But I'm having input errors. I have Input Shortcuts ON with 5/7 characters I use and prefer it with Sub Zero because he has dumb cancel advantage on several strings where it won't cancel consistently.
But having Input Shortcuts ON causes me to Clone/Ice-Ball when I quickly go from something to D1?
This can't happen in my locals or online tournaments or on sets.
Anyone got any tips, I tried in practice turning Short input window from Medium but it didn't seem to stop it.

Am I just gonna have to turn off input Shortcuts and just completely relearn Sub and inputs. I like doing D+B into F3 to instantly slide from crouch to go under high projectiles while ducking and can only do this with input Shortcuts ON and it helps some tight links as well.

I don't have this issue with Sindel but she doesn't have specials linked to her D3 or just doesn't come out from D3, Sub Zero has Clone and Ice Ball that will register from simply being a tiny bit off on Down Input because it registers D+B or D+F instead of D+1

I feel you. I tried doing alternate controls for a while, but I ended up stopping because I couldn't instant air dive kick as easily. Unfortunately, I don't think there's a one size fits all. You'll just have to experiment to find the one you're most consistent with, and you're spot on about consistency mattering for locals and tournaments.

 

[Bulletz4Breakfast]

The only frame data I remember from the beta is F1 being 12 frames. I'd also say it was #2, but I don't think he necessarily needs all of that to be viable now. Though, Klone lasting long enough you could EX Slide someone into it was fun =)

So that's it, just F1 12f startup and Clone lasting 3seconds instead of 1.5 with massive recovery. I need more info but that doesn't justify the nerfs IMO.
I hope one person recorded the frame data on Beta
I'm wanting to compare it to Top Tiers and see if there's a justification for nerfing him like they did

 

[OldManFGC]

So that's it, just F1 12f startup and Clone lasting 3seconds instead of 1.5 with massive recovery. I need more info but that doesn't justify the nerfs IMO.
I hope one person recorded the frame data on Beta
I'm wanting to compare it to Top Tiers and see if there's a justification for nerfing him like they did

Oh, and the damage difference, of course. That was maybe the biggest thing. It actually made sense to use ground freeze (Chilling Vapors?) multiple times in the beta. That was fun, too.

 

[Bulletz4Breakfast]

I feel you. I tried doing alternate controls for a while, but I ended up stopping because I couldn't instant air dive kick as easily. Unfortunately, I don't think there's a one size fits all. You'll just have to experiment to find the one you're most consistent with, and you're spot on about consistency mattering for locals and tournaments.

So to be clear you use Input Shortcuts ON and Alternate Kontrols Off and Negative Edge OFF and Short input window?

Oh, and the damage difference, of course. That was maybe the biggest thing. It actually made sense to use ground freeze (Chilling Vapors?) multiple times in the beta. That was fun, too.

Yeah the damage is definitely different from vids I've seen but they where only getting 40-47% off BnB's and other chars where getting 50%+
Where they really that afraid of Clone, so pros and casuals got it nerfed?

 

[Amplified$hotz]

Does anyone have Sub Zeros Beta frame data to compare to Day 1 Release Sub?
One of the things MKTomBrady said on his debate with FATE was that: the reasons Sub Zero got nerfed so hard was Casuals not Pro's

I was looking into this and there are several pros that complained about Sub Zero. No shade against Rewind, he a cool dude and eventually labs up his options vs chars but gets a little salty vs friends on first couple sets vs a char.
Like Top level players and newer players that placed Top 8's and even placed 1st in a offline event (non major) like TGC|Stryker which is an AHole.
This is my response to his idiotic tweet:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1733251253398909047

But I'm noticing this wasn't just Casuals complaining about Kameos or Sub Zero, this was several notable top players and newer competitive players doing okay. Obviously Casuals complained as well but when you have 10+ top 50 players complaining and Casuals complaining I think that makes it an easy Nerf decision for NRS.

Anyone got the frame data for Sub during Beta, I didn't get to play it on Beta?
I've heard two different opinions:

1. Sub was broken in Beta (which I think is hyperbole)
2. Sub was just strong not broke, how he should be today.

I just want to confirm.

This isn't something I only see about Sub Zero, I see numerous pros complain about Stryker, Lao, Goro Kameos and Johnny(too many to count), Sindel(a few I won't name), Kenshi(Obvious), Prepatch they complained about Baraka and Raiden damage while using Johnny and Kenshi. And they got nerfed but Johnny and Kenshi?
This goes on, there was complaints about Rain as well, and some even call for gutting the characters. Only Sonic, Xombat, Dragon and SylverRye defended the top tiers said they have counters and not to gut the characters and offered ways to tone the Kameos putting them over the edge.

So is the problem casuals or is it the community being whiny that are unwilling to lab up options vs them. One of them was a Kenshi main telling them "you can poke/Armor at some points during Sento, it's easy" while complaining about Sindel being Broke.

But anyone has Beta Sub frame data please share here!!!

It wasn’t just casuals. A lot of pros said he was broken besides the ones playing him.

If you want the real spill, MKX (Maybe even INJ 1) through MK11 were training wheel games. Those games had mechanics that were aimed at minimizing the skill gap.

Now MK1 is a return to normalcy. And a lot of people are realizing they’re not as good as they thought they were and they can’t stand it. Pros and casuals alike.