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MK1 Tier List Discussion Thread

The take of a washed up old man....

Any feedback is welcome since Tom, Crimson, and I may use this tier list as a base for the podcast whenever we decide to discuss this topic.

I wonder which effect, if any, Tremor will bring to the meta...

S+ Cage, Kenshi

S Ashrah, Raiden, Sindel

A+ Liu Kang, Tanya, Kung Lao, Geras, Mileena, Kitana, Omni-Man

A Smoke, Reiko, Li Mei, Shang Tsung, Havik, Baraka

B Rain, Nitara, Reptile, Kahn

C Scorpion, Sub Zero

A couple of miscellaneous notes:
  • The letters are and have always been arbitrary to me. Obviously, the S+ characters in this game are not on the same terms as the S+ characters in Mortal Kombat 9.
  • I am deliberately elevating characters who synergize with Kung Lao and Goro, particularly the former, because I consider Kung Lao and Goro the best kameos in this game.
  • Of course, there are notable exceptions such as Kenshi with Sub Zero, Ashrah with Sareena, and Raiden with Kano.
  • Mortal Kombat 1 is the most balanced Midway/NRS fighting game ever created, ironically so because of the kameo system. You can attach a piece of feces to Kung Lao, and what is left still smells, but there is a functionable and playable character hiding in there somewhere.
You've said the letters don't matter, but usually C down means unplayable at a high level, and you've also said that this is a very balanced game, so you may want to move Scorp and Sub up to B or just tighten your banding overall. I also don't agree with Sub's placement, but I realize that's the popular consensus and no point arguing it since he and others might get buffed when Tremor drops tomorrow.
 
The take of a washed up old man....

Any feedback is welcome since Tom, Crimson, and I may use this tier list as a base for the podcast whenever we decide to discuss this topic.

I wonder which effect, if any, Tremor will bring to the meta...

S+ Cage, Kenshi

S Ashrah, Raiden, Sindel

A+ Liu Kang, Tanya, Kung Lao, Geras, Mileena, Kitana, Omni-Man

A Smoke, Reiko, Li Mei, Shang Tsung, Havik, Baraka

B Rain, Nitara, Reptile, Kahn

C Scorpion, Sub Zero

A couple of miscellaneous notes:
  • The letters are and have always been arbitrary to me. Obviously, the S+ characters in this game are not on the same terms as the S+ characters in Mortal Kombat 9.
  • I am deliberately elevating characters who synergize with Kung Lao and Goro, particularly the former, because I consider Kung Lao and Goro the best kameos in this game.
  • Of course, there are notable exceptions such as Kenshi with Sub Zero, Ashrah with Sareena, and Raiden with Kano.
  • Mortal Kombat 1 is the most balanced Midway/NRS fighting game ever created, ironically so because of the kameo system. You can attach a piece of feces to Kung Lao, and what is left still smells, but there is a functionable and playable character hiding in there somewhere.
Stop making sense old man. One of the most sensible if not the most sensible tier list I’ve seen
 
But the high costs of using those ambush moves might make him a not so hot pick at the highest level of play,who knows maybe the low metallic set ups and crystl armor will be so good it will be worth the full bar.

this is all based on unofficial accsses so things might be different when he is out.
So you have early access to Tremor? I'm jelly
But there must be non-ambush(summon Kameo) setups to get the Crystalline Armor out on knockdown or maybe even juggle, maybe mid combo.
The low ball costing full Kameo as Ambush is dumb. I hate how NRS does these safeguards to some characters/Kameos but not for others. Selective balancing.
But I'm probably just old and cranky, I think there has to be ways to safely get out the low rock for HTBs and Crystalline Armor without spending Kameo for Ambush.
Maybe the ability to use all these different moves in one Kameo might make it very powerful once mastered and I can't wait for players like Rewind, Koisy, Ninjakilla, Xombat, Dragon, and SonicFox to get a hold of Tremor and develop new tech or a new meta.
The Kameos I think are super strong are Lao(obviously the utility of Low hat), Stryker(Grenades/Batton), Goro(Up punch/Unblockable setups with Stomp), Sub(zoning matchups or getting out long startup moves) and Kano for certain chars.
 
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Felipe_Gewehr

Twinktile
So you have early access to Tremor? I'm jelly
But there must be no ambush setups to get the Crystalline Armor out on knockdown or maybe even juggle, maybe mid combo.
The low casting full Kameo as Ambush is dumb. I hate how NRS does these safeguards to some characters/Kameos but not for others. Selective balancing.
But I'm probably just old and cranky, I think there has to be ways to safely get out the low rock for HTBs and Crystalline Armor without spending Kameo for Ambush.
Maybe the ability to use all these different moves in one Kameo might make it very powerful once mastered and I can't wait for players like Rewind, Koisy, Ninjakilla, Xombat, Dragon, and SonicFox to get a hold of Tremor and develop new tech or a new meta.
The Kameos I think are super strong are Lao(obviously the utility of Low hat), Stryker(Grenades/Batton), Goro(Up punch/Unblockable setups with Stomp), Sub(zoning matchups or getting out long startup moves) and Kano for certain chars.
Scorpion is also particularly good for Li Mei, Reptile and Smoke.
 

PrinceGoro

Apprentice
So you have early access to Tremor? I'm jelly
But there must be no ambush setups to get the Crystalline Armor out on knockdown or maybe even juggle, maybe mid combo.
The low casting full Kameo as Ambush is dumb. I hate how NRS does these safeguards to some characters/Kameos but not for others. Selective balancing.
But I'm probably just old and cranky, I think there has to be ways to safely get out the low rock for HTBs and Crystalline Armor without spending Kameo for Ambush.
Maybe the ability to use all these different moves in one Kameo might make it very powerful once mastered and I can't wait for players like Rewind, Koisy, Ninjakilla, Xombat, Dragon, and SonicFox to get a hold of Tremor and develop new tech or a new meta.
The Kameos I think are super strong are Lao(obviously the utility of Low hat), Stryker(Grenades/Batton), Goro(Up punch/Unblockable setups with Stomp), Sub(zoning matchups or getting out long startup moves) and Kano for certain chars.
using low metallic ball as a summon takes too long to recover to truely enforce a hard to blockable.There could be set ups for pressure maybe witha a summon but a htb i dont think so based on my time with him

The summon crystl armor is very slow to start up and it takes quite a bit of time for tremor to put it on you,playing vs ai there where situations where the ai hit me out of it cancled the armor and tremor goes away on cooldown plus the bar gets spent,all because of how slow it is.full screen you could also projectile out of it.

The safeguards on his aftershock low ground pound are,if it whiffs the move stops and the 2nd and 3rd hit dont come out,if the move is blocked the 2nd and 3rd hit also dont come out,if the move hits an armored opponent the 2nd and 3rd hit also dont come out,there is zero potential for it in setplay in this state.I mean i guess its still a fast low you could do on ambush at any time but it costs full bar,its not for certain you get a combo and the conversion will be scuffed,there maybe some htb situations, but i feel like ball will be better for that,who knows im curiouse too what the top players will find,and how he evolves over time

wondering if there will be any changes to him tomorrow,this was all based on unofficial accesses.
 
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using low metallic ball as a summon takes too long to recover to truely enforce a hard to blockable.There could be set ups for pressure maybe witha a summon but a htb i dont think so based on my time with him

The summon crystl armor is very slow to start up and it takes quite a bit of time for tremor to put it on you,playing vs ai there where situations where the ai hit me out of it cancled the armor and tremor goes away on cooldown plus the bar gets spent,all because of how slow it is.full screen you could also projectile out of it.

The safeguards on his aftershock low ground pound are,if it whiffs the move stops and the 2nd and 3rd hit dont come out,if the move is blocked the 2nd and 3rd hit also dont come out,if the move hits an armored opponent the 2nd and 3rd hit also dont come out,there is zero potential for it in setplay in this state.

im curiouse if there will be any changes to him tomorrow
I hope so, did you use all his strings to see if anything had +40 on combo ender even leaving it short and cancelling into it?
I'm also curious about Jump Cancel setups you could potentially do special into jump cancel then cut off all recovery into the Green Armor.
But if it's like you said and he doesn't have +40 knockdown or any string that hits them while they are airborne to make it +40 HKD then it would be very useless. I can't think of any tourny player that would spend full Kameo with cooldown.
Maybe something like Darius but we have Lao hat, Goro and Stryker out here doing crazy setups for instant recovery. Why make this many safeguards.
I truly hope the startup is changed or he has some strings to get it out on setups to do HTB/Armor otherwise the only thing people will use is Lao if you can't get anything out.
I hope I'm wrong
 
Scorpion is also particularly good for Li Mei, Reptile and Smoke.
I was seeing Sonic get like 47% 1Bar with Reptile and he was saying that Scorpion Kameo is mainly for damage and Reptile has good damage if you know his optimal routes. I sure as hell can't get that much with Reptile, but says Kano/Stryker is better for Reptile.
I guess Havik is very good with Stryker like 50-70% combos.
But I agree Scorpion is good for several chars.
 

Felipe_Gewehr

Twinktile
I was seeing Sonic get like 47% 1Bar with Reptile and he was saying that Scorpion Kameo is mainly for damage and Reptile has good damage if you know his optimal routes. I sure as hell can't get that much with Reptile, but says Kano/Stryker is better for Reptile.
I guess Havik is very good with Stryker like 50-70% combos.
But I agree Scorpion is good for several chars.
Yes, but you don't use scorpion for damage when pairing him with Reptile. You use Scorpion to allow reptile to combo from a low in midscreen, or a VERY far reaching fast normal (f24 and 3, respectivelly), invisibility setups and a sneaky overhead. Stryker is mostly for safety and pressure when paired with Reptile, not sure about Kano as I don't play him.
 

PrinceGoro

Apprentice
I hope so, did you use all his strings to see if anything had +40 on combo ender even leaving it short and cancelling into it?
I'm also curious about Jump Cancel setups you could potentially do special into jump cancel then cut off all recovery into the Green Armor.
But if it's like you said and he doesn't have +40 knockdown or any string that hits them while they are airborne to make it +40 HKD then it would be very useless. I can't think of any tourny player that would spend full Kameo with cooldown.
Maybe something like Darius but we have Lao hat, Goro and Stryker out here doing crazy setups for instant recovery. Why make this many safeguards.
I truly hope the startup is changed or he has some strings to get it out on setups to do HTB/Armor otherwise the only thing people will use is Lao if you can't get anything out.
I hope I'm wrong
The start up of summon crystal armor is 60 frames,and also if you use one of his move to cause a knockdown then he has a recovery period where he has to go away so you cant use him meaning even if he had a+60 hard knockdown you still wouldnt be able to call it.
 

M2Dave

Zoning Master
I get it that there's no much exposure out there for him atm, but fundamentally he's an S tier character. I'm also not entirely certain of the B tier, I feel they could all be in A.
I fail to understand how he is "fundamentally" an S tier character.

Most aspects about Geras that people despised fighting against in MK11 have either been removed or normalized (i.e., low sand trap, d+1 spam, mid command grab, fatal blow, 1,1, splash being difficult to AA).

I do understand that he has received other tools and that he synergizes well with Kung Lao, but currently I cannot see him being on the same level as Ashrah and Raiden.

Kameo tier lists, go
S+ Kung Lao
S Goro
A+ Stryker, Sareena, Kano, Sub Zero
A Sektor, Scorpion, Jax, Frost
B Cyrax, Darrius, Motaro, Sonya
C Shujinko
? Tremor

Stop making sense old man. One of the most sensible if not the most sensible tier list I’ve seen
What are your buff suggestions for Reptile?
 
Thanks @Bulletz4Breakfast. Good point about the risk-reward of his HTB-ables only being advantageous if they go overhead first and then low. I'll keep that in mind. I was labbing yesterday and discovered that his air-BF4 move is so minus that, even if the low hits second, if the Hat doesn't trail by enough, you can block the air-BF4 overhead, block the low hat, and then still punish the recovery of the air-BF4. I know they can counter by doing low first, but at that point, they're putting their butt on the line. I at least need to force them to go low-then-overhead if they want to get damage. Which is another reason I wish KL sets were first-to-3, because I'd have more time to force them to kill themselves taking risks, but that's a separate train of thought!

Oher than that, I just gotta be ready for that teleport behind and make them block rather than think they can push a button first. Those are the two most F-neutral things, and I just gotta practice against them a lot.

I still find all the ignoring neutral stuff so extremely annoying, and I think @Juggs's point about that archetype of character being rage-inducing is spot-on, because that's what I'm feeling right now. But you make really good points here, particularly about the HTB stuff with Lao. Thanks for the thoughts!!


I'm not one bit scared of Omni-Man anymore. At first I was scared because of the f neutral tools. But all of them are punishable unless Lao is charged.
His B11 has a duckable high if you crouch block and you should be fuzzying low to overhead.
His 222 is flawless block punishable.
His 12 has a Armor gap.
His EX and regular Vitramite Stance is very punishable.
You need to go in practice and beat it into muscle memory, but his HTBs are all overhead to low because that's how they are safe. They have to time it 4 frames apart or second hit turns into a mid that's auto blocked and a 4 Frame HTB is easy to fuzzy and that's why you see pros blocking the HTBs nearly every time. The sky drop with Lao hitting after is shutdown with UpBlock because not only does it make it punishable if no Kameo to make it plus but it completely stops all following buttons after for 30+ frames.
If you are scouting Vitramite Stance into F+R2 the teleport behind, you can punish with hit/throw mix or just 50/50. Omni-Man is far less likely to EX Stance into teleport behind.
EX Vitramite Stance is punishable by several specials, lows and jump ins.

He is honestly top of mid tier and Sonics new Tier list validates my placement.
He's clearly a good character but he has counterplay.



Just block low to overhead with fuzzy and you beat her Vortex HTB.
She can't land overhead to low with JIP's 1 or 2 because of the timing to cover all wakeup options.
Only way she can land overhead first is JIK and that completely shuts down her juggle, F43 doesn't pop up after and it's way harder to combo after it at the timing to cover wakeup options, you have to wavedash into F1xxBF2 wavedash F1xxFlipkick for 20%ish F4 won't connect. The reason she can Vortex with JIP is the F4 ender and the time she keeps them juggled which regens another Charged Lao Hat in time to JIP again.
They can't delete your life if they overhead to low with JIK so just low to overhead, it's a 4 Frame HTB so not hard to fuzzy.
Just lab it into muscle memory like any punish combo.

I hope they add a Regen delay to Charged Low hat, somewhere around 5 seconds so it can't be Vortexed like Dragon, Sonic and Xombat are asking for.
I honestly don't need it and for me it's not that strong unless opponent doesn't fuzzy or doesn't know her options on it.

I hope I explained it right:

I honestly think her neutral HTB is harder to deal with (non vortex) because I can hold Lao hat after JIP or let hat hit before JIP for a low to overhead/overhead to low true 50/50 HTB. There's options against it but most players freeze up when they see Lao Hat charging. But that's an HTB every character has with Jump in+ charged hat.

I'm not saying The JIP HTB Vortex isn't strong but if they are doing it perfectly to stuff every wakeup option but delay wakeup beating backdash, D2, Jump, Armor WU then you can absolutely Fuzzy Guard it. But they can add many layers by waiting with float and even empty jump into throw where they are not covering wakeup options and not making it a actual Vortex that covers all wakeup options. Just the threat of it being there allows these layers.

But most God to Demi God players online will try to do the low to overhead JIP HTB that stuffs wakeups because they are wanting to do the perfect timing at least all the ones I've played and it got me out of it a couple times a match which got me enough to win those matches.
I can do very similar setups with Rain, Geras and a few others in the corner that do loop HTBs. Rain has one you set pool behind them just enough that you can throw them back into whirlpool for launch and if you hit them with any string it hits them into the low whirlpool.
I can backdash a slightly different distance to make the whirlpool look behind them but actually hit low on first frame allowing Armor break with his double overhead into 40% into another HTB setup. And Rain does it with Jax midscreen using jump cancel combos.
Example of armor breaking version and how the threat of throw opens up your life deleted fast:
 
I fail to understand how he is "fundamentally" an S tier character.

Most aspects about Geras that people despised fighting against in MK11 have either been removed or normalized (i.e., low sand trap, d+1 spam, mid command grab, fatal blow, 1,1, splash being difficult to AA).

I do understand that he has received other tools and that he synergizes well with Kung Lao, but currently I cannot see him being on the same level as Ashrah and Raiden.



S+ Kung Lao
S Goro
A+ Stryker, Sareena, Kano, Sub Zero
A Sektor, Scorpion, Jax, Frost
B Cyrax, Darrius, Motaro, Sonya
C Shujinko
? Tremor



What are your buff suggestions for Reptile?
I’ll break it into the must haves then what would be nice.

Must have: plug is holes
  1. Remove the gap in b31
  2. Remove flawless block punish in mb ex dash but keep allow armor punishes
  3. Revert normal invis to its prior state
  4. Allow F111 to combo in the corner
  5. Allow for b313 to connect with spit and slide on hit
Would be nice:
1. Either shave off 7-10 recover frames when doing a force ball or have his force balls go 10-20% further for each speed. This would make it to where the fast forceball will still not reach full screen if the opponent is walking back and reptile moves forward but it will force them to block if reptile stays back, similar to how his mb slow force ball works. Also it would give more of a use for slow normal fb which right now is completely useless.

2. Rework b2. Currently it’s death on block and it does 5%. Level 2 is safe but 33frame startup and only does 7%. I would make level 1 do 7% and still be unsafe. Level 2 change to 24 startup frames and be 9% and level 3 which is 46 frames start up bring it down to 38 frames so it has more utility when invisible.

3. Rework the spit special. It is currently useless. I’m not sure exactly how. Maybe make it to where ex doesn’t have a hit box and it just goes on the floor to do dot damage and have the normal version go the distance the ex currently does.
Just make it usable somehow


The dream:
These would put him in s+ tier but it doesn’t hurt to dream:
  1. Make elbow dash 8 frames startup
  2. Make it to where if reptile uses mb invisibility it grants him one hit of armor once he becomes fully invisible

But to summarize, at least give me the ones listed in plug holes and give me one of the would be nice
 
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Thanks @Bulletz4Breakfast. Good point about the risk-reward of his HTB-ables only being advantageous if they go overhead first and then low. I'll keep that in mind. I was labbing yesterday and discovered that his air-BF4 move is so minus that, even if the low hits second, if the Hat doesn't trail by enough, you can block the air-BF4 overhead, block the low hat, and then still punish the recovery of the air-BF4. I know they can counter by doing low first, but at that point, they're putting their butt on the line. I at least need to force them to go low-then-overhead if they want to get damage. Which is another reason I wish KL sets were first-to-3, because I'd have more time to force them to kill themselves taking risks, but that's a separate train of thought!

Oher than that, I just gotta be ready for that teleport behind and make them block rather than think they can push a button first. Those are the two most F-neutral things, and I just gotta practice against them a lot.

I still find all the ignoring neutral stuff so extremely annoying, and I think @Juggs's point about that archetype of character being rage-inducing is spot-on, because that's what I'm feeling right now. But you make really good points here, particularly about the HTB stuff with Lao. Thanks for the thoughts!!
I am very glad I helped you.
But Juggs is right F neutral chars are definitely annoying. But labbing that stuff into muscle memory definitely reduces that and makes it feel like your in control. Omni-Man online just throws out crazy unsafe stuff constantly and if you just have 5 of them labbed into muscle memory it's curtains for Omni-Man, they will crumble and do far worse when they freeze, that when you put on the oppression of mix.

But I guess it's easier in some way for me because I'm from the older games where oppressive mix and HTB was punishable and most powerful moves where safe. You could be blocking against HQT Predator or DF Liu Kang for 7+ cancels and have no openings while fuzzy Guarding mixups that you where absolutely guessing.

I also recreate the sequences I face in sets that trip me up or make me feel I have no options and I hit the lab, cycle through all strings, specials normals, even Fatal blow and Armor and even backdash and wavedash into button until I find something that beats it or trades even or puts me at the best distance/situation, maybe I take I bit of damage but have the perfect distance to auto wiff punish.
Believe it or not several characters can punish as soon as they see them place Lao hat charged.

I actually learned tech today from Sonic:
Never would of thought of that and it actually destroys some of my bad matchups using Sindel or at least shuts down their pressure and puts me in a good momentum to lay down the HTB mix.
 

M2Dave

Zoning Master
Just to keep the discussion going, here is my updated tier list.

S Cage, Kenshi, Ashrah, Sindel, Raiden

A Liu Kang, Geras, Kung Lao, Baraka, Smoke, Mileena, Reiko

B Kitana, Omni-Man, Tanya, Li Mei, Shang Tsung, Havik, Nitara

C Reptile, Shao, Rain, Scorpion, Sub Zero
  • In spite of the backlash on Twitter, I believe that Sonic Fox is right about Sindel. However, she is difficult to use so I do not expect a wave of Sindel players any time soon.
  • After playing Forever King in person over the weekend, Geras is much better than I initially thought.
  • Likewise, Baraka appears to be much better than many people initially thought, based on recent tournaments in which Tekken Master won UFA and Tweedy won a couple of stacked online tournaments.
  • Honey Bee and Javier are keeping Reptile and Scorpion alive, respectively, but I cannot in good conscious place either one of the characters any higher.
  • Since the changes to Cyrax, Rain seems to have fallen off the most in terms of character usage and results.
 

ReD WolF

Lord of the Drip
Just to keep the discussion going, here is my updated tier list.

S Cage, Kenshi, Ashrah, Sindel, Raiden

A Liu Kang, Geras, Kung Lao, Baraka, Smoke, Mileena, Reiko

B Kitana, Omni-Man, Tanya, Li Mei, Shang Tsung, Havik, Nitara

C Reptile, Shao, Rain, Scorpion, Sub Zero
  • In spite of the backlash on Twitter, I believe that Sonic Fox is right about Sindel. However, she is difficult to use so I do not expect a wave of Sindel players any time soon.
  • After playing Forever King in person over the weekend, Geras is much better than I initially thought.
  • Likewise, Baraka appears to be much better than many people initially thought, based on recent tournaments in which Tekken Master won UFA and Tweedy won a couple of stacked online tournaments.
  • Honey Bee and Javier are keeping Reptile and Scorpion alive, respectively, but I cannot in good conscious place either one of the characters any higher.
  • Since the changes to Cyrax, Rain seems to have fallen off the most in terms of character usage and results.
Good list. I personally would move Kitana up to A tier. I believe her space control to be some of the best in the game. Also, I think that smoke placement is pretty accurate given his invisibility setups with sub zero. I use to think he was gimmicky as hell but after playing a bunch of smokes recently, he can be can absolute nightmare to deal with. His offense is obnoxious.
 
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M2Dave

Zoning Master
Good list. I personally would move Kitana up to A tier. I believe her space control to be some of the best in the game. I think that smoke placement is pretty accurate given his invisibility setups with sub zero. I use to think he was gimmicky as hell but after playing a bunch of smokes recently, he can be can absolute nightmare to deal with. His offense is obnoxious.
I agree about Smoke, but I feel like Kitana is overrated.

If I competed in this game like I did in the early 2010s, I would either use Ashrah (which, in fact, I do), Liu Kang, or Sindel.

Ashrah is essentially an alternative version of Cetrion while Liu Kang's and Sindel's zoning is complemented by the best strike/throw and set play, respectively. Kitana has nothing similar by comparison.

Reiko/Kung Lao has also very good zoning yet below average damage output.
 

ReD WolF

Lord of the Drip
I agree about Smoke, but I feel like Kitana is overrated.

If I competed in this game like I did in the early 2010s, I would either use Ashrah (which, in fact, I do), Liu Kang, or Sindel.

Ashrah is essentially an alternative version of Cetrion while Liu Kang's and Sindel's zoning is complemented by the best strike/throw and set play, respectively. Kitana has nothing similar by comparison.

Reiko/Kung Lao has also very good zoning yet below average damage output.
Who knows, maybe Quan Chi will play similar to Freddy... :joker:
 

Ray'sGoodLiquor

I don't care I'm not a competitive player anymore
I fail to understand how he is "fundamentally" an S tier character.

Most aspects about Geras that people despised fighting against in MK11 have either been removed or normalized (i.e., low sand trap, d+1 spam, mid command grab, fatal blow, 1,1, splash being difficult to AA).

I do understand that he has received other tools and that he synergizes well with Kung Lao, but currently I cannot see him being on the same level as Ashrah and Raiden.



S+ Kung Lao
S Goro
A+ Stryker, Sareena, Kano, Sub Zero
A Sektor, Scorpion, Jax, Frost
B Cyrax, Darrius, Motaro, Sonya
C Shujinko
? Tremor



What are your buff suggestions for Reptile?
If you have Motaro in your bottom 3, take another look at him. I think he's better than Lao for pressure where you don't have to hold the hat. Tail shot has more + frames than low hat but has the same gap. Liu can get a 50/50 off a tail shot knockdown, and I haven't tested it with other characters but anyone with armor breaking normals should be able to. His teleport is 100x better than Lao. Sometimes you can use it to bail you out of unsafe specials, and can sometimes get a punish if they try to punish you're unsafe special. It also opens up throw combos for some of the cast but makes execution a little easier due to the speed. It's also better at pulling you out of the air than Lao's teleport so it can be used in more situations. Walking projectile reflect lasts longer than low hat when held, so it's superior if you're in a zoning war. Liu can get 4 projectiles out with reflect out and only 2 with low hat. Motaro's fatal blow is a lot faster and farther reaching than most character's fatal blows which means you can get bigger FB combos. Tail turret does seem to suck though.
 
Tail turret does seem to suck though.
I use TT full screen with Nitara to setup two blood sacrifices before its over, a lot of people just turtle up when it happens, but it really sucks if someone hits him during it. I imagine you could use it for a free Sento, or hourglasses or (hopefully) with Quan for portal buff stuff. It would be nice if it came out a couple frames quicker, he needs a little buff for the health hit from using him.
 

Revy

★ 19 Years of Jade ★
I think Subzero is S tier
never received so many hatemails voicemails in a NRS game before like in mk1 lol
You were a Deathstroke player in IGAU, how is that possible? lmao

I was a Deathstroke player during IGAU & on XBL I was getting hatemail from literally everyone at the time even without zoning.
 

Ray'sGoodLiquor

I don't care I'm not a competitive player anymore
I use TT full screen with Nitara to setup two blood sacrifices before its over, a lot of people just turtle up when it happens, but it really sucks if someone hits him during it. I imagine you could use it for a free Sento, or hourglasses or (hopefully) with Quan for portal buff stuff. It would be nice if it came out a couple frames quicker, he needs a little buff for the health hit from using him.
There's just not a ton of ways to get it out safely. You need to be like +50 on knockdown.