Lord Raiden General Discussion Thread

[Marlow]

BTW I think I've settled on Storm Cell/Quick Charge/Lightning Storm. Seems to give me exactly what I'm looking for out of the character.

 

[Mandolore1123]

BTW I think I've settled on Storm Cell/Quick Charge/Lightning Storm. Seems to give me exactly what I'm looking for out of the character.

If you can I highly recommend practicing the meterless unbreakable damage optimal. Though it doesn't work off stuff like F4 it weirdly does even more damage if they break and is does higher damage than using summon lightning if it armour breaks (which is kind of messed up but hey ho)

 

[Marlow]

If you can I highly recommend practicing the meterless unbreakable damage optimal. Though it doesn't work off stuff like F4 it weirdly does even more damage if they break and is does higher damage than using summon lightning if it armour breaks (which is kind of messed up but hey ho)

What is that combo?

I'm still fairly new to Storm Cell combos, and frankly it's just been awhile since I've tried MK11 in general. So far my mid screen is string into SC-J2-F2-12-bf1 for the corner carry, which does about 30%, or I end with 121 if I want to stay spaced out. It does 29%, so less damage, but leaves the opponent far away, which could be useful for some matchups.

I still need to figure out:

Combo if I think they'll breakaway: (I think just string-SC-D2?)
Corner Combo
Corner combo with Quick Charge re-stand
Corner combo ended with B2 to set up B2 KB/B3 50/50
D2 KB (both Mid-screen and corner)
B2 KB (corner)
FB combo for Mid Screen and Corner
Anti-air combos
Is there a way to combo into the Electric Fly KB? I thought there was.

 

[Mandolore1123]

What is that combo?

I'm still fairly new to Storm Cell combos, and frankly it's just been awhile since I've tried MK11 in general. So far my mid screen is string into SC-J2-F2-12-bf1 for the corner carry, which does about 30%, or I end with 121 if I want to stay spaced out. It does 29%, so less damage, but leaves the opponent far away, which could be useful for some matchups.

I still need to figure out:

Combo if I think they'll breakaway: (I think just string-SC-D2?)
Corner Combo
Corner combo with Quick Charge re-stand
Corner combo ended with B2 to set up B2 KB/B3 50/50
D2 KB (both Mid-screen and corner)
B2 KB (corner)
FB combo for Mid Screen and Corner
Anti-air combos
Is there a way to combo into the Electric Fly KB? I thought there was.

Break-safe optimal: Starter that isn't B31/F4~storm cell AMP, F2, D2 (B3 storm cell works, and try to do F2 as soon as possible to get D2 to land properly)

Corner combo: anything into storm cell AMP, JK, 243~fly (works best on starters that aren't B31 iirc), replace fly with discharge if you want the restand but to be honest idk if it's worth it, also note that storm cell corner routes actually do less damage than mid screen routes because of the universal JK nerf

B2 setup: anything into storm cell AMP, JK, B2

D2KB: I would do F3~storm cell AMP, then JI2, F4~fly, meter less the optimal would be micro dash 243~fly but its very hard so you can just do F3~fly

B2KB routes should allow F4~storm cell AMP into JI2, F4~fly but I don't really remember since it comes up so rarely

For FB combos you can replace your fly enders into FB

For anti-airs you can do F1~storm cell and go into JI2, F4~fly I think but I'm not sure, S1, F3~storm cell should also work, if you land a very high hit off F3/F2 you can get a 12~fly pickup so experiment I guess. Raiden's routings should be fairly straightforward?

As for Fly KB you can do D2KB, micro dash 243~slight delay fly for the KB, imo it's not really worth it for the damage and the storm cell route does laughable damage for 2 bars so IMO it's best saved for making those big reads to punish certain zoning moves, like short hopping the second hit of Cetrion ground pound and doing fly KB to punish

I think if you aren't using teleport then you don't really have to use 121 as an ender. You're guaranteed a meaty lightning strike after any fly ender mid screen that's safe if they can't punish it so you can take the free chip and just go back to playing zoning and footsies which we excel in. 121 is +36 which guarantees a teleport in while still being plus so that's the main reason I use it. Maybe you can think of another way with your new kit. In the corner you might also want to experiment with meaty AMP float stuff but it's pretty expensive with not a lot of reward so...

Either way good luck and have fun. Remember to mix up your options with float a lot (doing float into stomp without AMP, doing AMP into cancel, delaying stomp to make it less minus, etc) or else you tend to burn through offensive bar quickly (which is what I experienced)

 

[Marlow]

Assuming Raiden is in MK12, and assuming they bring back some of his MK11 moves for MK12, are there any you hope they bring back? Any you hope they rework? Any you hope they just scrap?

I really liked his Quick Charge, I hope they bring that move back.

 

[UnshavenRaven]

I love the Quick Charge mechanics, as well as Jo Push and Lightning Rod.

 

[Marlow]

I liked Jo Push, issue with it in MK11 was the slot cost seemed too high relative to it’s value, and it also replaced a very good move in Electric Fly.

Lightning Rod would have been cooler if you could plant the non amped rod for longer, like a max of ten seconds.

 

[UnshavenRaven]

I liked Jo Push, issue with it in MK11 was the slot cost seemed too high relative to it’s value, and it also replaced a very good move in Electric Fly.

Lightning Rod would have been cooler if you could plant the non amped rod for longer, like a max of ten seconds.

I love Electric Fly too of course. It's an iconic Raiden move, no doubt. That being said though, the Jo Push really does shine as a powerful Neutral control tool, once you master its distance and insane reach. On top of that, it flies like a projectile, but hits as "physical" damage, hence it cannot be "reflected" by characters like Jade and Nightwolf. It also smashes right through any standing parry counters (Liu Kang, Skarlet). It's also has a "tall" hitbox, so it's a great anti air tool. The Jo Push is also relatively safe at max distance on block (with a few exceptions), whereas Electric Fly is fully punishable on block every time.

The lightning Rod has a higher learning curve than some of Raiden's other moves, but it's worth learning it. It is very versatile for both offensive pressure and defensive counter traps, and it does massive chip damage on block. Works great against super "jumpy" characters (Kabal, Kung Lao) too, since it stops their movement. It does indeed only last 3 seconds, but honestly I've used it for so long that the timing and flow of those 3 seconds is second nature to me now. I know exactly when to fire a reflecting shot and when the staff comes right back.

 

[theotherguy]

I liked Jo Push, issue with it in MK11 was the slot cost seemed too high relative to it’s value, and it also replaced a very good move in Electric Fly.

Maybe. Compared to Fly, the move has a huge hitbox and you get a juggle on amplify. I'm guessing that's why the extra slot. Great tool for keeping people away. But if Rod could stick around a little longer it would've made for some interesting juggles, even just 1 or 2sec longer would've been better.

I've played Truth and Light the most of all his variations only for the fact that it's a little less mind numbing than Thunderwave. Hopefully 12 builds on some of these moves and tweaks them into better options.

 

[UnshavenRaven]

Maybe. Compared to Fly, the move has a huge hitbox and you get a juggle on amplify. I'm guessing that's why the extra slot. Great tool for keeping people away. But if Rod could stick around a little longer it would've made for some interesting juggles, even just 1 or 2sec longer would've been better.

I've played Truth and Light the most of all his variations only for the fact that it's a little less mind numbing than Thunderwave. Hopefully 12 builds on some of these moves and tweaks them into better options.

I'm a longtime Raiden Truth and Light main, with lots of experience vs many competitive/pro players (as well as players from this forum), add me on PSN and I'll help you maximize the Lightning Rod usage. Trust me, you can do a lot with those 3 seconds with proper mind games, positioning and trapping pressure. My PSN is "UnshavenOne", and you can also find my youtube channel with my dedicated Jo Push/Lightning Rod video guide here...

 

[xRantex]

With Storm cell you can also catch jumpy characters like Jacqui, Kabal. I've been making use of it that way instead of picking raijin etc I feel I can just counter the jump with Storm cell.

 

[UnshavenRaven]

With Storm cell you can also catch jumpy characters like Jacqui, Kabal. I've been making use of it that way instead of picking raijin etc I feel I can just counter the jump with Storm cell.

Yeah, both are great tools, just comes down to personal preference really. I personally like the deceptive reach of Jo Push because it makes many players think they're at a safe distance, when in reality they're at a perfect range to get punished with a combo.

 

[Marlow]

Maybe. Compared to Fly, the move has a huge hitbox and you get a juggle on amplify.

It's certainly got nice aspects. Lots of range, switches sides, huge hitbox. It's a launcher that can sometimes catch an opponent at a deceptive distance. The con though is of Raiden's launchers it does the least amount of damage, it's slow to startup and pretty unsafe so there's a very distinct range to use it, and again it replaces a super useful move in Electric fly, meaning the opportunity cost of using Jo Push vs another launcher like Storm Cell is higher. Also it being 2 slots cuts down on the moves you can use with it, which adds to the opportunity cost.

 

[Trustful_Whale]

Jo Push has always been overpriced, change my mind.

 

[UnshavenRaven]

Jo Push has always been overpriced, change my mind.

Best way I can change your mind is to run some matches with you 1v1, so you can get an idea firsthand of how much pressure my Jo Push/Lightning Rod can put on the opponent. My PSN is "UnshavenOne".

Jo Push is fully viable... to the point that I've had people ragequit on me in online matches lol. The strength of Jo Push is that you can fire it out multiple times at a distance to poke and keep the opponent under pressure in neutral (a few characters can counter attack with a fast frame counter, Liu Kang dragon kick for example, but even then you can make them guess wrong and amplify for the juggle hit).

You can't do that with Superman Fly, as it's immediately fully punishable on block. Jo Push also allows Raiden to switch corner position upon amplify. It also cuts right through projectile shields and parry counters, and I still maintain a top combo ender in Raiden's DB2 (armor breaker lightning). The combination of this together with the traps and setups of Lightning Rod allow me to control the spacing and apply major pressure.

 

[UnshavenRaven]

@Trustful_Whale I await your response good sir.

 

[Trustful_Whale]

I am aware of those things, yes, however none of it changes that the move is still overpriced; it simply is.
Thanks for the invite to play and all, but beating me up isn't the argument you think it is lol.

 

[UnshavenRaven]

I am aware of those things, yes, however none of it changes that the move is still overpriced; it simply is.
Thanks for the invite to play and all, but beating me up isn't the argument you think it is lol.

Okay the thing is, you previously made the statement, "Jo Push is overpriced. Change my mind". If you say this, you should be willing to the evaluate the evidence presented. Instead you've clearly already made your decision and had no real interest in anyone changing your mind, regardless of how viable Jo Push can be.

Theory talks and frame data are nice and all, but they have to be put into action to truly be understood. I've challenged myself consistently vs many other skilled "Teleport/Storm Cell Raiden" players, and I've always been able to hold my own with Jo Push. At no time whatsoever playing vs them did I feel that they had an unfair advantage over my Jo Push/Lightning Rod. Each moveset has its pros and cons, and neither is over/underpowered.

 

[Trustful_Whale]

That's all fine and good but you're talking to me as if I've never played the game before, which is a little grating cause this isn't our first conversation about Raiden. You're also assuming a lot about my position here, though you were correct about something I'll clear up down further.
I promise I've done the work. The move should be 1 slot, not 2.

More to my actual reasoning; there was a version of the game where this move did not replace fly but otherwise worked the same (replaced Bolt instead and the knockback distance was messed with) and the change they pushed through has been a big mistake ever since and they really just didn't need to do that. Of course I have several issues with the design choices for Raiden's abilities but my posts about that are all over this Raiden board already.

Thirdly, the phrase "change my mind" in this context comes from an asshole that also didn't actually want his mind changed so that's kind of the joke there. Apologies for the confusion.

 

[Marlow]

If you want to play Raiden as a long range pressure character, then Jo Push is fine. I don't think that's the optimal way to play Raiden, but that's what I like about Customizations. Optimal or not, players get to pick the moves they want and play how they want to play.

 

[Marlow]

If I was going to use Jo Push, I'd probably pair it with Storm Cell. That way you can still do 29% mid-screen with B12xxxSC J2-F2-121 and push the opponent to the corner, and then they'd be at a great range to harass with Jo Push. Plus you'd have Jo Push to use as a side switch combo. You lose a lot of good potential defensive options that way though, but then you get the range.

 

[Trustful_Whale]

I really like the idea of keeping Jo Push for catching jumpers and gaining a side switch, but I also can't leave the house without Quick Charge.
If I could have QC, Jo Push, and Lightning Storm that would be a pretty fun build.

 

[Mandolore1123]

Isn’t there like an OS to punish Jo push or something because the AMP has a gap? Correct me if I’m wrong. Otherwise if Raiden makes it into 12 I want a few things:

Aesthetic-wise I want him to look like MK11, standing tall and he should be at least at tall as ppl like Kotal and not hunched over like in MKX.
I would like him to be a mid-range character with good buttons but that’s just me. I much prefer his play style in 11 rather than X because to me gods don’t need to rush you down, you come to them and accept your fate.

In terms of moves I think his old launcher Shocker will probably return and I’m ok with it. I hope moves like summon lightning make it in because lul full screen anti-air and it looks awesome (also give it its own Brutality damn it NRS). As a personal wish I want float to make it in and expanded as a stance, since in concept Float could have been a very versatile tool that allowed him to pressure up close and zone in mid range but instead only the kick ender and the AMP are useful practically. I want Quick Charge to make it in since it’s a great mechanic to play around with, though tbh the way how it sort of invalidates a lot of strings and plus frames in MK11 is a bit fucked up. I hope his lightning strike zoning move makes it in for the aesthetics, maybe he can use it to destroy oncoming projectiles or something.

 

[Mandolore1123]

I also hope the next game has less weird input delay.

Another note on quick charge, I think this can really be his new “gimmick” that his entire moveset plays around on (assuming we are no longer doing variations), it really should interact with all his specials in interesting ways so we can build game plans where we can set up QC and then charge up to buff our specials, but also develop resource management skills to choose where and how to spend the charge (fully charged QC could power up the float AMP lightning strikes for example and make him more plus by giving him additional strike so Raiden can safely land and apply pressure afterwards, or the QC can improve the frame data and damage on his projectiles)

I really hope they break the 2 yr cycle this time, and maybe try communicating with the players each patch and explain some of the balance intentions they did. I hope the flawless block mechanic returns in some capacity since it was an interesting mechanic rewarding skill, KBs can also make a return though the requirements really need to be reworked. I assume the wake up system will definitely be reworked again, after playing strive with universal wake up timings I might want them to do away with delay wake up entirely but if they keep it in it’s ok I guess.

I’m cautiously optimistic about this whole thing, and I hope they show more game footage soon

 

[Marlow]

I hope the flawless block mechanic returns in some capacity since it was an interesting mechanic rewarding skill,

I also really liked it, the one thing I didn't like though is that you could flawless block out of hit stun.