A Year Later Safe To Say The Gameplay Changes Did Not Work Out?

[Demon_0]

Best thing about MK11? It got rid of breakers.

There has never been a more scrubby, nonsensical, braindead mechanic in all of Mortal Kombat. God, I hope we never see this appear again.

 

[ismael4790]

I think people saying this is the best competitive mk are actually projecting what they expected from the game to be more than what it actually turned out to be (which everyone is free to like of course).

This game undeniably has stupid stuff. Most of it just happens to be in a new format or to be a consequence of new mechanics. The fact that they toned down oh/low 50/50s doesn't mean this game doesn't have plenty of 50/50 situations where you are risking a big chunk of your life by making the wrong decision. It just may not come from an oh/low decision, but there it is. Krushing blows are poorly balanced. Flawless block is questionable. Fatal blows are straight up a stupid mechanic. I'm not even going to talk about breakaway. Eliminating armor and removing invincibility on backdashes incredibly enforced the power of the strike/throw mixup (with throws being the most dangerous in any nrs game this time) which eliminates some layers and doesn't particularly help making the pace of the game look good.

So when a game is not even what it promised to be balance-wise, one can only wonder if it was worth losing the fun factor that people found in previous games (like great creativity in combos or setups, pretty much nowhere to be found in mk11 at the level of the previous installments), or if it would have been better to build on the knowledge of the balance task of the previous games instead of trying to change things for the sake of just doing it.

 

[John Grizzly]

Like imagine if there was no amplify button and rather there was specific inputs like u1 or u2. That is what was intended before people complained a lot.

This would add absolutely NOTHING to the depth of gameplay. It would just be annoying to have to remember each amplify input. NRS added this simply to make it seem like the game was deeper than it really was. Completely stupid idea and removing it was 100% the right move.

 

[John Grizzly]

Best thing about MK11? It got rid of breakers.

There has never been a more scrubby, nonsensical, braindead mechanic in all of Mortal Kombat. God, I hope we never see this appear again.

Right, because BreakAway is such a huge improvement.

Let me get punished because you can stand up while I'm still attempting to finish my combo.

At the very least, breakers reset both characters to neutral. I'd choose them any day instead of the asinine BreakAway anti-hype button. Not that any combos in this game are hype anyway, but still. It's really fun watching someone auto-regen 3 BreakAways a round and dropping out of every launch.

 

[PapaRegadetho]

I think the biggest dissapointment actually is that NRS thought they could make a real fighting game for the 70% that don't play fighting games. Lets face it, MK is the CoD of fighting games, people just want to mix with no effort, do easy combos and butcher someone at the end of their work day. Thats what MK is for them and nothing much else.

 

[Juxtapose]

Damn, sir! I'm 46 years old. My first memories of gaming come from going to my grandmother's house in 1978 and watching my cousins gather around an old black and white tv to play pong with those controllers that had rotating dials on them to move the block around to hit the dot. They would not give me or my older brother a turn to play lol!

You've got seveal years on me! Mine is playing a top-down PacMan cabinet at a hospital in '82.

 

[MuMuGuy]

Right, because BreakAway is such a huge improvement.

Let me get punished because you can stand up while I'm still attempting to finish my combo.

At the very least, breakers reset both characters to neutral. I'd choose them any day instead of the asinine BreakAway anti-hype button. Not that any combos in this game are hype anyway, but still. It's really fun watching someone auto-regen 3 BreakAways a game and dropping out of every launch.

Another major problem with the Breakaway mechanic is that they occur way too often.

Since Defensive Stamina regenerates on its own and independent of Offensive Stamina, meter management isn’t a major concern when deciding whether to use Breakaway. In MK (2011) and MKX, a player had to decide how often they wanted to use EX Moves as extenders and/or to stay safe versus how often they want to Breaker out of a combo. Breakaway in this game often occurs twice as often per match as Breakers in the previous games.

Defensive Stamina also regenerates way too fast, especially since it seems to randomly fully recharge after a KO’d character gets up after Round 1 (or 2 if it goes to a 3rd). The only real con to Breakaway is losing access to some wake-up options, but delayed wake-ups are stupidly powerful as is, so it isn’t as big a loss as one would think it is.

 

[Marlow]

The most disappointing game I have ever played.

The 2K baseball game series, and pretty much every single Madden game post 2006.

 

[Marlow]

Eliminating armor and removing invincibility on backdashes incredibly enforced the power of the strike/throw mixup (with throws being the most dangerous in any nrs game this time) which eliminates some layers and doesn't particularly help making the pace of the game look good.

Just curious how does the game having a more strike/throw meta = eliminating layers? A lot of the fighting games that people tend to list as being very deep have heavy strike/throw metas.

 

[M2Dave]

M2Dave, I actually (along with many others) listen to your podcasts with REO and Tom Brady and the others, I respect alot of what you have to say. yet I fail to see how all of those things seem astounding to you. I praise some aspects of this game, however I will not praise things like the throw meta in MK11 - even as a longtime MKX fan. You should not turn a strike/throw 50/50 meta into an even further mix up game with 2 tech buttons, and furthermore, you should definitely not attach KBs to throws. Eating 30%+ on a wrong guess removes skill from the player and faults the receiver - especially, as I mentioned in my last post, when you can actually get grabbed out of a D2 READ and eat the KB FOR STILL MAKING THE RIGHT READ.

First of all, thank you for listening to the podcast.

Your post precisely proves my point, though. You claim to be a fan of Mortal Kombat X, a game filled with 50/50 mix ups, yet you dislike the 50/50 mix up of throws in Mortal Kombat 11 when Mortal Kombat X has the exact same throws. In fact, you can most certainly make the argument that the throws in Mortal Kombat X are better than in Mortal Kombat 11. I encourage everyone to whiff a throw in each game and tell me what they notice.

Again, I continue to be astounded by post such as yours and this one. I will never argue with someone who dislikes the Mortal Kombat 11's meta. Different strokes for different folks. But when I am reading rationale that is inaccurate, hypocritical, or simply ignorant, I have to comment.

(X-Rays in MKX wasted all 3 bars for example).

They were rarely used in Mortal Kombat 9 or Mortal Kombat X for that reason. Why waste three bars on 35% of damage when you could do more with one bar? Bars were also a necessity for defensive purposes such as armor moves and breakers.

 

[Vagrant]

Fatal Blows are absolutely worth complaining about. They are a 2 button get-out-of-jail free card with 0 consequence.

Now it seems there's is a lack of hype with this game. Characters are so formulaic, the tech is so limited feels like you know a character by the first week.

The meta is still abusable strings with mids and grabs in between so no.

Breakaway is inferior to combo breakers in every way and Flawless Block is a dead mechanic online. This game felt like it was meant to be played with custom variations but then they pussy'd out last second to scramble together these sloppy tournament variations. And let me tell you this, if this is what NRS thinks footsies/neutral gameplay is like then they need to play a lot more fighting games.

Most characters were optimised within a week of their release.

While MKX was a 50/50 and armour heavy game, there was far more depth to the characters, far more combo routes, and set ups - and zoning especially was far less prevalent (minus a couple examples like Jacqui).

I don't think you know as much as you seem to think you know. These comments are silly.

 

[Testurmight19]

My biggest gripe with this game is it needs more combo extenders to add more variety.

 

[xWildx]

I don't think you know as much as you seem to think you know. These comments are silly.

How so? You offered absolutely nothing in the way of counter argument.

 

[VELL1]

How so? You offered absolutely nothing in the way of counter argument.

Well the fact that I constantly use flawless block in my online games and get them consistently - proves that it's not a dead mechanic online.

 

[Marinjuana]

Dudes still talk like you get punished everytime the opponent does a breakaway.

Combo Breaker is a bandaid comeback mechanic, breakaway has more depth.

 

[xWildx]

Well the fact that I constantly use flawless block in my online games and get them consistently - proves that it's not a dead mechanic online.

I use flawless block as well. What I don’t see is it mentioned in anything I’ve said or in the quotes he attempted to refute above, so I’m curious as to why you’d bring it up with me.

 

[VELL1]

I use flawless block as well. What I don’t see is it mentioned in anything I’ve said or in the quotes he attempted to refute above, so I’m curious as to why you’d bring it up with me.

You replied to a post, where a lot of statements were made and the guy called them silly. You said the guy needed counter-arguments, he can't just say the thing is silly. Well I am providing counterarguments...one of the statements mentioned that flawless block is unusable online. Since I (and apparently you) use them all the time in online play, appears to provide the counter-argument that you were looking for.

Would you like me to explain things a bit more in depth?

 

[xWildx]

You replied to a post, where a lot of statements were made and the guy called them silly. You said the guy needed counter-arguments, he can't just say the thing is silly. Well I am providing counterarguments...one of the statements mentioned that flawless block is unusable online. Since I (and apparently you) use them all the time in online play, appears to provide the counter-argument that you were looking for.

Would you like me to explain things a bit more in depth?

Except that none of the posts he quoted were referencing flawless block lol

 

[VELL1]

I mean:

BringBackReptile said:
Breakaway is inferior to combo breakers in every way and Flawless Block is a dead mechanic online. This game felt like it was meant to be played with custom variations but then they pussy'd out last second to scramble together these sloppy tournament variations. And let me tell you this, if this is what NRS thinks footsies/neutral gameplay is like then they need to play a lot more fighting games.

 

[craftycheese]

I feel like we've had this thread before. Maybe not with a poll, but I'm pretty sure we've beaten this dead horse already.

Anyways. It's met my expectations. I was not very satisfied with mkx and feel like the big change they did at the end of its life was too late for me, I had already moved on. I liked those changes for what it's worth and feel like they did a better job overall with the variation system in that game but ya, it was just too late for me.

I feel like I'm this game I'm being rewarded for playing well, making good decisions, and playing with good fundamentals and me losing, more often than not, feels like the other person was doing this things better than me or I was just playing poorly. Like I've never been wake-up fatal blowed and felt like it's a cheap mechanic that caused an unearned win. It's my dumbass fault for not reading that was obviously going to happen. Maybe in the moment I've said that, but that's just the salt talking.

 

[OutworldKeith]

Statements like these just make you want to question whether people are just set out to hate the game.

Let's take them one by one:

Breakaway: In what universe is this mechanic inferior to a Combo Breaker? A MK combo breaker has no counterplay, gets you completely out of whatever situation in in a braindead fashion. There isn't much to think about when you time it, and there's usually no thinking at all on your opponent's side either. Breakaway requires thinking and a bit of planning from both players, and it also has some counterplay and still has a disadvantage (it leaves one player in a knowndown state). The gameplay surrounding breakaway is much deeper, and that's what you want in a fighting game.

Flawless Block dead online: This can't be serious. Two of the players who flawless block the most, Grr and Biohazard, have been playing primarily online, even before the Coronavirus epidemic ever happened. It's not just the absolute best players either.. Kitana Prime flawless blocks a ton, lots of good players do. Saying that this mechanic is dead online is like saying that you've never watched a high-level online tournament.

These are just two examples, but stuff like this makes you question whether people really understand the game before they bash it.

Breakaway is a scrub mechanic. If NRS added more ways to blow up breakaway (like Spawn’s hammer thing) it would be ok.

In it’s current state, breakaway doesn’t mesh with other mechanics in this game. There are already too many 2nd and 3rd chance mechanics at play. Fatal Blow, Krushing Blow, Last Breath, etc. not to mention they’re all FREE resources.

Is it inferior to breakers? Not at all. They’re both trash/ scrub mechanics that encourage crap play. Why would I be afraid to go unga bunga if I know I can get right out of it for the mistake. I’m honestly against all combo breakers with the exception of KI 2013. The breaker system in KI was beautifully done.


I actually don’t have an issue with Flawless Blocks. It works similar to Just Defense in any other fighting game

 

[xKhaoTik]

I just wish the people who like the game would stop trying to force it on others, while the people who don’t like the game would stop trying to kill it for others.

If you like the game, cool. Go your own way. If you don’t, cool. Stop playing it. How do people not grasp this?

 

[Demon_0]

Right, because BreakAway is such a huge improvement.

Let me get punished because you can stand up while I'm still attempting to finish my combo.

At the very least, breakers reset both characters to neutral. I'd choose them any day instead of the asinine BreakAway anti-hype button. Not that any combos in this game are hype anyway, but still. It's really fun watching someone auto-regen 3 BreakAways a game and dropping out of every launch.

Resetting both characters to neutral is exactly why breakers were stupid, especially in a game where meter is built in no time. "Oh, I got opened up? Let me break with the press of a button so my opponent loses his advantage". And they were more frequent than breakaways, lets be honest.

I'm not a fan of the breakaway mechanic either but its surely an improvement on breakers. At least you loose your wakeup options and are completely vulnerable for a period of time in which a good offense can destroy you.

 

[ismael4790]

Just curious how does the game having a more strike/throw meta = eliminating layers? A lot of the fighting games that people tend to list as being very deep have heavy strike/throw metas.

Just an example. After being plus, to simplify it, some options you have as the attacker are: do a high attack, do an attack that you can't neutral duck, do a throw, do a fast poke...

In mkx, the armor and the backdash are defensive options that the opponent has (unsafe or not depending on the case) to make you respect him in that scenario, that might buy him an escape at the cost of meter/stamina, since you are not plus enough to jail him. Those two options being gone in 11 make that blocking, trying a fast poke or neutral ducking to read a throw are basically the main options (yolo jumps etc aside), enforcing the strike/throw game and simplifying the situation. Having less options imo makes the game more bland, but of course it's a matter of tastes. I hope that now my point is more clear.

 

[TheDylbot]

First of all, thank you for listening to the podcast.

Your post precisely proves my point, though. You claim to be a fan of Mortal Kombat X, a game filled with 50/50 mix ups, yet you dislike the 50/50 mix up of throws in Mortal Kombat 11 when Mortal Kombat X has the exact same throws. In fact, you can most certainly make the argument that the throws in Mortal Kombat X are better than in Mortal Kombat 11. I encourage everyone to whiff a throw in each game and tell me what they notice.

Again, I continue to be astounded by post such as yours and this one. I will never argue with someone who dislikes the Mortal Kombat 11's meta. Different strokes for different folks. But when I am reading rationale that is inaccurate, hypocritical, or simply ignorant, I have to comment.



They were rarely used in Mortal Kombat 9 or Mortal Kombat X for that reason. Why waste three bars on 35% of damage when you could do more with one bar? Bars were also a necessity for defensive purposes such as armor moves and breakers.

Thanks for the reply. Yes, I'm a fan of MKX but not for the 50/50's and endless mix (e.g.. no one enjoyed the corner mix of a GM sub zero), sorry if that's what you thought I meant. The game is filled with them, sure, but I wasn't a fan of MKX for them, I was a fan of that game for another aspect:

The games depth. I mained Dualist kang for a long time, why? The tech. The set ups, the combo potential, the ability to freestyle. It took alot of lab work to separate yourself from the others. Where is this depth now? Where is the freestyle potential that you had with nimble reptile? I miss those mechanics about X, not the mix up game, which is why I brought up throws in 11. It's also why I said I actually enjoyed crushing blows, as it allows for some creativity and mind games.

There were many combo routes and a character could not be labbed to optimal in a week. That simply does not exist in 11 minus some very few exceptions (Noobs dash cancel combos for example).

That is why I said what I said about throws in 11. They have become more than a 50/50 when factored into the strike/throw mix. I definitely do not believe throws were better in X. Throws in 11 do more damage raw. They have a built in mix in their techs, as well as having a 30%+ punishment for guessing wrong on the mix. More importantly, and far more annoyingly, is the amount of times it works on active frames. I can't believe how many times I see a D2 in its active frames get overwritten by a grab - on a correct read. Or a poke. Or a jab. I don't remember it happening to this extent in MKX, and hopefully this is something they can work on.

As for xrays vs FB's, I will admit one point that there wasn't much point using them outside of guaranteed unbreakable damage to close a round or even the gap - particularly if the opponent had a breaker ready. However, now that FB is a standalone resource, the odds shift significantly more than they have before. Got 2 defensive bars and a FB? Well you can breakaway/ use 2 tech rolls or wake ups, and threaten with FB. Its very powerful in combination with this meter system.

At least you can't mash it on wake up anymore as effectively. I just think there should be more weight to this mechanic, especially seeing as it recharges on whiff and block.