We shouldn't be happy with the netplay in MK11

[spidey300]

mk11 netcode is really good. it's these false sub 100 pings that turn into 100+ pings as soon as you get in the game and wifi connections. they give us a wifi filter and you will see your matches imrpove

 

[freerf245]

It's good af might be the best out there right now

 

[Gooberking]

One thing I've seen in other games is the ping being constantly evaluated while you decide to accept a match. You can actually see connections jumping around before hand. That doesn't help you a lot in ranked, but it's good info.

That's a little topic adjacent, but it's a thing.

 

[Juggs]

I'm pretty sure its 3+1 based on that hour long vid discussion they had on the netplay. I'll try to source it for you.

Could be. What helps a lot, and which I’ve mentioned before, is the offline training mode delay simulation. I haven’t played MK11 in awhile, but that helped me dramatically playing online. But, it is worrying that whenever I played online, I never had a connection that didn’t have delay. And it was consistently the same delay that was offered in the offline delay simulation. It didn’t matter what the ping was, which I still don’t understand how that works.

Regardless, MK11 has been by far the best fighting game experience I’ve had in regards to online play. And I even played on WiFi for a lot of the time I was playing. The fact that I was having very consistently playable matches while on WiFi, and even when my opponent was also on WiFi, tells me how insanely good MK11’s netcode is, at least in my personal opinion.

However, it being good comparatively speaking doesn’t mean it’s the best it can be. Having automatically 3-4 frames of delay while playing online, regardless of ping, while as I said was more than playable, it shouldn’t be considered the pinnacle of online netcode. I think though, that everyone is aware of this. There always is room for improvement. But to suggest that MK11’s netcode is bad? That is disingenuous to say the least.

 

[MKF30]

I agree to be honest I don't get how people shit on other mk games online and praise this one when therwa little difference in fact I'd say if anything this games worse due to forced to play bad wifi, lag switchers and far more pullers and don't get me started on lag and certain characters having advantages online.

 

[Gooberking]

Could be. What helps a lot, and which I’ve mentioned before, is the offline training mode delay simulation. I haven’t played MK11 in awhile, but that helped me dramatically playing online. But, it is worrying that whenever I played online, I never had a connection that didn’t have delay. And it was consistently the same delay that was offered in the offline delay simulation. It didn’t matter what the ping was, which I still don’t understand how that works.

Regardless, MK11 has been by far the best fighting game experience I’ve had in regards to online play. And I even played on WiFi for a lot of the time I was playing. The fact that I was having very consistently playable matches while on WiFi, and even when my opponent was also on WiFi, tells me how insanely good MK11’s netcode is, at least in my personal opinion.

However, it being good comparatively speaking doesn’t mean it’s the best it can be. Having automatically 3-4 frames of delay while playing online, regardless of ping, while as I said was more than playable, it shouldn’t be considered the pinnacle of online netcode. I think though, that everyone is aware of this. There always is room for improvement. But to suggest that MK11’s netcode is bad? That is disingenuous to say the least.

I've watched the GDC talk twice in the past. They do mention the static delay right in the beginning. Specifically at this location in the aforementioned video. It compares old and new and explains some about why.

 

[Error404]

Granblues netcode is trash what are you even on about?

 

[Jynks]

lol.. love how kids with no idea of how the internet works think that the impossible is possible. (with current technology). If you do not think MK11 has good netcode you are absolutely completely out of touch with the realities of how games function beyond what you see on the surface as a gamer and you should just stick to aesthetic stuff as tech evaluations are just beyond you. There is a big difference between practical, possible and the dreamland everyone has of wanting it to be perfect.

 

[DragonofDadashov24]

Sure beats Tekken’s online on ps4. Can’t find an opponent for hours.

 

[BlissfulMedusa]

I’m not. MK11 is a mashers paradise online. Why respect anything when you can mash or jump?

 

[CrimsonShadow]

When people complain about the current gold standard for network play in fighting games...

 

[Mikemetroid]

You all lack serious knowledge of the topic at hand here, even with the video evidence in your face. Nor are you reading into what Scoot is saying more specifically.

If you play the game online AT ALL, no matter the connection, IT HAS LAG! A fixed value that is NOT-CHANGEABLE. That value is minimum 3 frames. If you have a low ping match, you should be able to adjust those frames down to have a better experience. This is what Scoot is referring to and in true GGPO netcode, you can adjust this input value to better suit you and your opponent's connection.

So if you're an offline player (which is totally on hiatus now anyway), even the best online connections, you can feel your inputs getting fucked up and eaten alive by those four frames.

When people complain about the current gold standard for network play in fighting games...

Yeah KL is a great example of it. Nothing but GOLDEN netcode! It's a gold standard for NRS games not fighting games, there is no gold standard for online in fighting games. GGPO is a highly tweakable netcode and needs to be tweaked for each connection IMO. You can't have a static set of input delay and say it's great for all connections where-as its more of a safe cushion for people with shitty internet (which doesn't even work anyway??).

 

[Dankster Morgan]

I got some issues with MK11, but man anytime I played it, it was as smooth as I could reasonably expect from a fighting game. Even better than Injustice 2 which wasn't too bad.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

You all lack serious knowledge of the topic at hand here, even with the video evidence in your face. Nor are you reading into what Scoot is saying more specifically.

If you play the game online AT ALL, no matter the connection, IT HAS LAG! A fixed value that is NOT-CHANGEABLE. That value is minimum 3 frames. If you have a low ping match, you should be able to adjust those frames down to have a better experience. This is what Scoot is referring to and in true GGPO netcode, you can adjust this input value to better suit you and your opponent's connection.

So if you're an offline player (which is totally on hiatus now anyway), even the best online connections, you can feel your inputs getting fucked up and eaten alive by those four frames.


Yeah KL is a great example of it. Nothing but GOLDEN netcode! It's a gold standard for NRS games not fighting games, there is no gold standard for online in fighting games. GGPO is a highly tweakable netcode and needs to be tweaked for each connection IMO. You can't have a static set of input delay and say it's great for all connections where-as its more of a safe cushion for people with shitty internet (which doesn't even work anyway??).

MK11 doesn't use GGPO. It's rollback but definitely not GGPO.

 

[Dizzy]

It is 3 frames, according to @Dizzy. And the Ping doesn’t matter in this regard. Again, according to NRS themselves.

Yes.

 

[Mikemetroid]

MK11 doesn't use GGPO. It's rollback but definitely not GGPO.

True, it's rollback based though, and those frames should be able to be adjusted for private matches. That's all Scoot is getting at I believe.

 

[THTB]

Only NRS knows why they do not allow you to select the latency based on the connection. It should be standard with any fighting game, and given what Mike Z just did with Skullgirls, rollback still has room to improve to the point where it's not even necessary to add any latency.

But to say Granblue is better than it is a stretch. Granblue has the POTENTIAL to achieve lower latency than MK11. MK11, however, will have a higher level of consistency with its latency, and will perform far better in higher-latency connections than Granblue can ever hope to.

 

[Scoot Magee]

The number of players you are going to be able to exchange inputs with in 1-2 frames times is going to be super small unless you happen to live in a hyper densely populated area, with good internet infrastructure, where lots of people happen to like the same game at the same time, despite this being a fragmented and unpopular genre of game. The odds that those people are actually educated enough to be wired is expecting a lot, especially given we now know how many people are wireless and constantly have to explain why that is a problem to people causing 100ms ping swings.

Just because you can theoretically get a shorter round trip with someone or that you might be able to buddy up with one or two people you know you can get a fast connection to, doesn't mean it's wise to build the thing around the most ideal, edge case scenario and call that "good."

I don't think what is being said is so much inaccurate as trying to define what "good" is as something that I don't think makes a great standard for it. Whatever it is they do has to just work, for everyone, without fiddling. Something people manage (settings) doesn't cut it. If it preforms a little worse in the most idealistic situation, but preforms profoundly better in non-ideal situations then that's a thing you can also weigh "good" around. I'm betting that's what they and many other people are going to think of as "good."

Is there a way it could be better? IDK. I sure would like it if after 3 games the pre fight ping estimate didn't continue to be about 30ms under actual. It's seriously as reliable as gravity that it will be under quoted. What is that about?

Oh, and GBFV's net play can get pretty darn chunky.

Your point is valid but I dont see a reason why the 3 frames has to be fixed outside of the fact that they wanted static timing throughout the online experience. They could also default at the 3 fixed frames for those in rural areas and give the option to lower it for players that live in more densely populated areas. This is something that's been done many times already. That's probably by far the best option. They could even automatically vary the input lag depending on ping.

 

[Scoot Magee]

I could have definitely worded my op better. I dont think the core netcode in mk11 is bad but I do think forced 3 frames of fixed lag is.

I do not think granblue has good netcode. I was just trying to make the point that it can out perform mk11's netcode in the best of connections. I'm ok with playing other NY players in granblue because it feels good. I'mnot ok playing other NY players in mk11 because it's thesame as playing someone in California, for the most part.

As mentioned numerous times, adjusting frame lag is a thing when it comes to rollback netcode. It should be the standard. GGPO is the hold standard. Customization for the players preference is the gold standard.

Nrs did a great job with the netcode but I do not agree with the fixed frame lag solution. I dont see why it cant default to 3 and let the players who want to change it to their preference. Everyone wins.

Could be. What helps a lot, and which I’ve mentioned before, is the offline training mode delay simulation. I haven’t played MK11 in awhile, but that helped me dramatically playing online. But, it is worrying that whenever I played online, I never had a connection that didn’t have delay. And it was consistently the same delay that was offered in the offline delay simulation.

Honestly, it's not even about timing, its more about reacting. The way the neutral plays out completely changes.

 

[DarkSado]

It isn't.

yea I play granblue a lot the net code is not better lol.

 

[Marinjuana]

You all lack serious knowledge of the topic at hand here, even with the video evidence in your face. Nor are you reading into what Scoot is saying more specifically.

If you play the game online AT ALL, no matter the connection, IT HAS LAG! A fixed value that is NOT-CHANGEABLE. That value is minimum 3 frames. If you have a low ping match, you should be able to adjust those frames down to have a better experience. This is what Scoot is referring to and in true GGPO netcode, you can adjust this input value to better suit you and your opponent's connection.

So if you're an offline player (which is totally on hiatus now anyway), even the best online connections, you can feel your inputs getting fucked up and eaten alive by those four frames.


Yeah KL is a great example of it. Nothing but GOLDEN netcode! It's a gold standard for NRS games not fighting games, there is no gold standard for online in fighting games. GGPO is a highly tweakable netcode and needs to be tweaked for each connection IMO. You can't have a static set of input delay and say it's great for all connections where-as its more of a safe cushion for people with shitty internet (which doesn't even work anyway??).

Look out for Mr. Knowledge everbody!

It might not be feasible for them have adjustable input delay like that, they talked about the difficulties of rolling back the particle effects the like. I imagine that creates more opportunity for nasty graphical rollback and they don't want that. Maybe one day,

The netcode should serve the players, the majority of players are not playing in pristine connections. And yes it's very good in mediocre connections.

But I don't see why you shouldn't be happy with it, it's very good. Anything can be better.

 

[Scoot Magee]

Look out for Mr. Knowledge everbody!

It might not be feasible for them have adjustable input delay like that, they talked about the difficulties of rolling back the particle effects the like. I imagine that creates more opportunity for nasty graphical rollback and they don't want that. Maybe one day,

The netcode should serve the players, the majority of players are not playing in pristine connections. And yes it's very good in mediocre connections.

But I don't see why you shouldn't be happy with it, it's very good. Anything can be better.

The game allows for up to 7 frames of rollback. What are you talking about? It's also been done already in other games.

Also giving players the option to lower input lag themselves doesnt hurt the rest of the player base.

 

[Marinjuana]

The game allows for up to 7 frames of rollback. What are you talking about? It's also been done already in other games.

Also giving players the option to lower input lag themselves doesnt hurt the rest of the player base.

I don't know what part didn't work for you.

But what games though? Did KI have adjustable input delay? A lot of old arcade games have ggpo versions but they are old arcade games, it's not a fair comparison. Also you mentioned SF30th earlier but I thought it was kinda bad when I played, did they make that better?

I agree with your latter sentence, Im just not so sure it's that simple for them.

 

[Scoot Magee]

You guys should just be happy that a scorpion player is advocating for less input lag.

More discussion on the issue of 3f fixed lag. This guy articulated it a lot better than I did. I wish more people would understand this argument.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/fmbh9p

 

[Tony at Home]

This is me pinging a data center in Los Angeles. Just pinging and sending no significant data. So optimistically this is 6 frames of delay. In GranBlue, this is already garbage. I'm not even in New York. I live in Washington DC, so this literally means I can't play people just on the other coast of my own country without an issue, what the fuck.

In MK11 below 100ms is GREAT.

If I ping Chicago btw which is only half way across the country I get an average latency that necessitates a 3 frame delay at minimum.

So even a minimal acceptable player base radius is going to have 3 frames of delay in an optimistic scenario, the difference being MK11 will compensate for lag spikes, and with GBVS you're just fucked.

Being able to play people in NY with 2 frames of latency instead of 3 would be a nice feature- but that's ridiculous to say we shouldn't be happy with this. Even the largest distance I can find in the United State is completely fine in MK11 and unplayable garbage in most other fighting games.