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We shouldn't be happy with the netplay in MK11

Scoot Magee

But I didn't want to dash
MK11 netplay is not as good as people make it seem. I'm not even talking about wifi filter and etc, put that to the side for now. I'm only speaking of solid connections with lower and higher pings.

How can a game that has rollback netcode be outperformed by a game like granblue, that has input lag netcode? In granblue, good connections are 1 to 2 frames of input lag and the game still runs smoothly. That could still be even better if it was rollback but that's not the point.

Mk11 has a minimum of at least 3 frames of input lag when you play online, regardless of how low your ping is with the other player. It may be smooth but it sucks, it changes the game entirely. The only benifit this had is that it feels essentially the same playing someone from NY to NY or NY to CA. The downfall is that you'll never get any better than what you're locked in at.

Imo mk11 has the foundation to have great netplay but it's literally weakening the experience when it doesnt need to. It should be a max of 4/5 frames of lag, not a minimum.

It just drives me nuts when people say mk11 has great netplay. It absolutely does not. It just streamlines the feel of the game between low and high pings by making low ping matches feel just like high ping matches.

It's at least a big improvement over what nrs used to offer but their old netcode was probably the worst in the business. This game could play so much better than it does now.

I have mixed feelings on mk11 but its probably mostly due to my experience in netplay. I think the experience could be a lot better for everyone and it would benifit the level of play in this game.

I'm probably annoying for bringing this up so much but I do think more people should be making noise about this. Us making noise about how bad the online was before is what made them improve the netplay. Am I alone in this?
 
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Scoot Magee

But I didn't want to dash
It isn't.
If you play in a low ping connection in granblue, it outperforms the best of connections in mk11 due to the fact that it's only around 1 frame of lag.

I'm not saying granblue netcode is even good. It's just an example of how it can outperform mk11's netcode in low pings.
 

Baconlord

Proud follower of the church of Cetrion
I promise you granblue doesn't have 1 frame of input lag online. No matter how good the netcode is there always has to be built in input delay online because the game needs time to read your opponents input.
 

Slymind

Noob
I do not have the technical knowledge to say you are wrong, in my own experience it feels really solid, however if there is room for improvement i'm down.

With that said, is Granblue online play really better? because if so, i might give it a spin in the future.
 

Scoot Magee

But I didn't want to dash
I promise you granblue doesn't have 1 frame of input lag online. No matter how good the netcode is there always has to be built in input delay online because the game needs time to read your opponents input.
Mk11 definitely adds at least 4 frames when you play online. That's not the case for most other games that utilize rollback.

Granblue has a frame count on the screen that shows the amount of input lag in match. Is it not accurate?
 

Scoot Magee

But I didn't want to dash
I do not have the technical knowledge to say you are wrong, in my own experience it feels really solid, however if there is room for improvement i'm down.

With that said, is Granblue online play really better? because if so, i might give it a spin in the future.
No I wouldnt say it's better as a whole. I probably shouldnt even have used it as an example because people may misunderstand what I'm saying.

Granblue imo plays better than mk11 does in low ping connections. Once you get passed that it becomes awful.

I would say, if your plan is to only play people who are relatively close to you it's better. Other than that, no.
 

Baconlord

Proud follower of the church of Cetrion
Mk11 definitely adds at least 4 frames when you play online. That's not the case for most other games that utilize rollback.

Granblue has a frame count on the screen that shows the amount of input lag in match. Is it not accurate?
the counter is probably accurate but also misleading. the way delay based netcode works is that they delay your inputs by a few frames online so your opponent's game has time to get your inputs and display them on their end. in rollback netcode, when you drop frames or don't get input from your opponent in time the game will simulate those frames and rollback if their simulation was wrong. however in delay based netcode they just delay your inputs more until they get your opponents input. that's what the frame counter is showing. the game is already gonna have 3-4 frames of input delay online no matter what (probably more then that tbh) and the frame counter is showing you how many extra frames of delay there are because of the connection.
 

Scoot Magee

But I didn't want to dash
the counter is probably accurate but also misleading. the way delay based netcode works is that they delay your inputs by a few frames online so your opponent's game has time to get your inputs and display them on their end. in rollback netcode, when you drop frames or don't get input from your opponent in time the game will simulate those frames and rollback if their simulation was wrong. however in delay based netcode they just delay your inputs more until they get your opponents input. that's what the frame counter is showing. the game is already gonna have 3-4 frames of input delay online no matter what (probably more then that tbh) and the frame counter is showing you how many extra frames of delay there are because of the connection.
I understand the difference between the netcode styles. Are you sure about the claim that just going online adds 3 or 4 frames of lag? It definitely doesnt feel like the case. It's also not the case in many other games.
 

Baconlord

Proud follower of the church of Cetrion
I understand the difference between the netcode styles. Are you sure about the claim that just going online adds 3 or 4 frames of lag? It definitely doesnt feel like the case. It's also not the case in many other games.
Delay based netcode doesn't work without built in delay. Literally every fighting game has it
 

Scoot Magee

But I didn't want to dash
Delay based netcode doesn't work without built in delay. Literally every fighting game has it
Delay based netcode usually just means the game has a variable input lag based on how high the ping is. Usually that means a frame is added for every 16ms of ping.

Regardless of all this. Theres no reason mk11 needs to be locked at such a high amount of frame lag in low pings. Other games with rollback are not like this.
 

Scoot Magee

But I didn't want to dash
I'm right there with you, I can't speak on GB, but the netplay for this game feels like a HUGE step down from Injustice 2, and even XL when they rolled it out, idk what happened
I remember when the netcode in mkx was in beta, it felt amazing but higher pings showed some visual rollback. I think they increased the frame lag as a whole as a buffer to eliminate all visual rollback. Honestly I'll take some visual rollback over input lag anyday.
 

Juggs

Lose without excuses
Lead Moderator
Mk11 definitely adds at least 4 frames when you play online. That's not the case for most other games that utilize rollback.

Granblue has a frame count on the screen that shows the amount of input lag in match. Is it not accurate?
It is 3 frames, according to @Dizzy. And the Ping doesn’t matter in this regard. Again, according to NRS themselves.
 

Scoot Magee

But I didn't want to dash
This should always get linked in netcode threads, even for non NRS games. Extremely informative.

And this is actually the video lol. Yeah, so the minimum is 3 frames of fixed lag. He mentioned most games player under 4 to 5 frames of latency toward the end which is probably why I remembered incorrectly.

Anyway the netcode itself is great but I'm just disappointed that the fixed lag is as high as it is. I wish we had the option to lower it like in ggpo. Imo, the games that allow that play the best but obviously it leaves more responsibility to the player to play only matches with low pings.
 

Gooberking

Solidly Mediocre
The number of players you are going to be able to exchange inputs with in 1-2 frames times is going to be super small unless you happen to live in a hyper densely populated area, with good internet infrastructure, where lots of people happen to like the same game at the same time, despite this being a fragmented and unpopular genre of game. The odds that those people are actually educated enough to be wired is expecting a lot, especially given we now know how many people are wireless and constantly have to explain why that is a problem to people causing 100ms ping swings.

Just because you can theoretically get a shorter round trip with someone or that you might be able to buddy up with one or two people you know you can get a fast connection to, doesn't mean it's wise to build the thing around the most ideal, edge case scenario and call that "good."

I don't think what is being said is so much inaccurate as trying to define what "good" is as something that I don't think makes a great standard for it. Whatever it is they do has to just work, for everyone, without fiddling. Something people manage (settings) doesn't cut it. If it preforms a little worse in the most idealistic situation, but preforms profoundly better in non-ideal situations then that's a thing you can also weigh "good" around. I'm betting that's what they and many other people are going to think of as "good."

Is there a way it could be better? IDK. I sure would like it if after 3 games the pre fight ping estimate didn't continue to be about 30ms under actual. It's seriously as reliable as gravity that it will be under quoted. What is that about?

Oh, and GBFV's net play can get pretty darn chunky.
 

scarsunseen

Safeties disabled. Mod mode engaged.
Moderator
Maybe it depends where you live? Personally, MK11 generally has the best connections I've experienced in any NRS game. Sometimes it's still shitty, but that's to be expected. It'll never be like offline play.