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We shouldn't be happy with the netplay in MK11

Gooberking

Solidly Mediocre
I wanted to bring this back up after an interview with Skullgirls developer Mike Z by UltraDavid and James Chen on their UltraChenTV Twitch channel.

He talked a lot, and liked to get pretty technical. A big part of the initial discussion was recent adjustments he has been doing on Skullgirls that nobody was expecting. In that he talks about this issue specifically, and more interesting to me was about the sleep code that is a basic implementation detail for GGPO.

He talked some about what causes SFV’s problems, and eventually how a system that is ahead in time can drop inputs as part of the resyncing behavior.

That is an issue his updates apparently address, and some say very, very well. I feel like since IJ2 people have been complaining about dropped inputs. I certainly feel like that happens when I play this game.

That's hunch territory, and we don’t know how this game handles the situation that he is talking about, but it’s highly likely to be something MK11 does the same way other rollback games do; which apparently causes dropped inputs.

Seems like really good info surrounding this discussion, so have a watch. Interview starts around minute 41:20, and minuite 45:35 is about when he starts getting into the dropped inputs part.

 

THTB

When's Syzoth?
Something to check out.

Code Mystics has been implementing rollback netcode into various Neo Geo titles for some time. What they do, however, is exactly what Scoot wants to be done: allow full control over the user's experience. Like, you can literally make the game use a traditional delay-based netcode that fluctuates with the connection, use a pure rollback experience with no added latency, or blend both together in a similar vein as NRS netplay...all within the lobby menu. This is something that should be present in every game.

 

Gooberking

Solidly Mediocre
Something to check out.

Code Mystics has been implementing rollback netcode into various Neo Geo titles for some time. What they do, however, is exactly what Scoot wants to be done: allow full control over the user's experience. Like, you can literally make the game use a traditional delay-based netcode that fluctuates with the connection, use a pure rollback experience with no added latency, or blend both together in a similar vein as NRS netplay...all within the lobby menu. This is something that should be present in every game.

I think it's a cool video, and nicely presented.

The way I'm interpreting it makes it sound functionally like what NRS did, only they let you choose the delay buffer size VS letting people fiddle with it.

I have a couple of version of GMOTW and Last Blade 2 with this stuff, but I've not had much reason to play them online to try it though.
 

THTB

When's Syzoth?
I think it's a cool video, and nicely presented.

The way I'm interpreting it makes it sound functionally like what NRS did, only they let you choose the delay buffer size VS letting people fiddle with it.

I have a couple of version of GMOTW and Last Blade 2 with this stuff, but I've not had much reason to play them online to try it though.
Yes, the blending is exactly what NRS does. This gives you, the player, the option to set that specific amount of blending. Or you can just forgo any sort of rollback and just use dynamic input latency, akin to MK9/Inj1/MKX pre-rollback.
 

MKF30

Fujin and Ermac for MK 11
Premium Supporter
Agreed, but see if it glitches in player match rank, both, casual it's one thing but what gets me pissed is when it happens in shitty modes like kombat league aside from the unjustified grinding, dealing with cheaters and toxic players the lag is atrocious and a joke. Oh and let's not forget the luxury of losing rank and points when your opponent pulls...yep that's right happened to me 3 times this week twice on xbox and once on switch. So much fun NRS...NOT!!:mad:

Now has the general online improved?sure but that's not saying much when the online play is still flawed. to me umk 3 on the 360 and mk 9 were no worse than mk 11 is online with all the bs we have to deal with.
 

MKF30

Fujin and Ermac for MK 11
Premium Supporter
[email protected] mk 11 netcode being Godlike, yeah...godlike shit

I'm done with Mk11 online and its sad cuz I LOVE the game but it eats too many of my inputs
Yes, another issue I forgot about. Thank you. Input lag, buttons not registering nor responding and you get hit for it. It's the dumbest thing ever, it doesn't help that this games general responsiveness is slow af but sadly thats just how they made the games speed like a tortious
 
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The only thing we should complain about is how MK11's netcode is almost perfect, but that doesn't really matter because you're forced to play in WIFI connections as soon as you play ranked.

I dunno whose idea it was to invalidate good netcode by allowing WIFI users to ruin it for everybody trying to play properly, but my guess is that there won't be a WIFI filter until the final version of the game because NRS doesn't want to anger the 90% of the player base that doesn't give a fuck about giving others and themselves an enjoyable online experience.
 

craftycheese

I tried to throw a yo-yo away. It was impossible.
That is an issue his updates apparently address, and some say very, very well. I feel like since IJ2 people have been complaining about dropped inputs. I certainly feel like that happens when I play this game.
I always chalked it up to way that nrs games just never feel consistent. Like you can practice a combo a million times and still never feel like you got the timing down.
 

Scoot Magee

But I didn't want to dash
Something to check out.

Code Mystics has been implementing rollback netcode into various Neo Geo titles for some time. What they do, however, is exactly what Scoot wants to be done: allow full control over the user's experience. Like, you can literally make the game use a traditional delay-based netcode that fluctuates with the connection, use a pure rollback experience with no added latency, or blend both together in a similar vein as NRS netplay...all within the lobby menu. This is something that should be present in every game.

This is actually very impressive. The way most ggpo games do it is just adding a delay option in "online options". This would be amazing and also looks to guide the player without too much confusion.
 

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
I think the problem is NRS on PS4. I played Injustice 2 on both PS4 and PC. PS4 had the most issues with inputs.
Is it possible that the PS4 pad is actually what's eating the inputs? Because MK11 itself doesn't really 'eat inputs'.
 

Gooberking

Solidly Mediocre
Is it possible that the PS4 pad is actually what's eating the inputs? Because MK11 itself doesn't really 'eat inputs'.
There is always the chance that mistiming buttons, or worn pads could cause something the user describes as input eating, but referencing the interview I posted above, the default GGPO strategy for dealing with a machine falling behind (in time) is basically to sleep which includes not reading inputs. (I say this knowing sleeping is done per thread and we don't know how a specific engine is written. I'm differing to what Mike Z said, and we do know everything has to be completed in a 16.6ms time frame to be usable)

So if machine A bogs down for any reason (and there are lots of reasons) then machine B may have to a wait to resync, and that waiting likely includes ignoring inputs as that is the way GGPO defaults to handling that situation. This is not the same situation as the input delivery being delayed by a bad connection. It's the machines being on different in game frames in the real world so they are no longer playing in sync (players seeing and inputting on different game frames for the match.)

We don't know what NRS did, but it is reasonable to wonder about it. Like do the PS4 and PS4 Pro differ at all in how likely they might have processing hiccups? PS4 Pro is stronger but if it cranks up the visuals then it is also doing more.
 

666 I HazeOner

When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro.
I think the problem is NRS on PS4. I played Injustice 2 on both PS4 and PC. PS4 had the most issues with inputs.
Online only or offline?
If both and you use the newer model PS4 pads (CUH-ZTC2) you can set an option to send your inputs via a cable instead of Bluetooth. I use this for fighting games because I have an older modem that only transmits 2.4G WIFI. When I turn on my PS4, the controller (also 2.4G) sometimes interferes with wireless devices connected to my modem - never happened again since the data via cable option was implemented.
 

Hot_DNA

Noob
I think the problem is NRS on PS4. I played Injustice 2 on both PS4 and PC. PS4 had the most issues with inputs.
I do b343 into glaive and sometimes it works, and sometimes she just stands there..i do b343 and half the time only the 4 actually comes out..im like wtf
 

Gooberking

Solidly Mediocre
Online only or offline?
If both and you use the newer model PS4 pads (CUH-ZTC2) you can set an option to send your inputs via a cable instead of Bluetooth. I use this for fighting games because I have an older modem that only transmits 2.4G WIFI. When I turn on my PS4, the controller (also 2.4G) sometimes interferes with wireless devices connected to my modem - never happened again since the data via cable option was implemented.
I totally forgot about the BT aspect. Really good addition to the conversation.

I have yet to own a phone or tablet that would let me stream video or music over my wifi and let me send the sound to a BT speaker due to the signal conflict. Never been too sure how the PS4 deals with trying to do both at the same time, and if some users have issues. Been curious about it at times.
 

craftycheese

I tried to throw a yo-yo away. It was impossible.
I totally forgot about the BT aspect. Really good addition to the conversation.

I have yet to own a phone or tablet that would let me stream video or music over my wifi and let me send the sound to a BT speaker due to the signal conflict. Never been too sure how the PS4 deals with trying to do both at the same time, and if some users have issues. Been curious about it at times.
Ya know, that reminds me, I remember going to a local years ago and we we're all having problems with our inputs lagging on the ps4 because there were so many dualshocks around that they were all interfering with one another.
 

666 I HazeOner

When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro.
I totally forgot about the BT aspect. Really good addition to the conversation.

I have yet to own a phone or tablet that would let me stream video or music over my wifi and let me send the sound to a BT speaker due to the signal conflict. Never been too sure how the PS4 deals with trying to do both at the same time, and if some users have issues. Been curious about it at times.
Ya know, that reminds me, I remember going to a local years ago and we we're all having problems with our inputs lagging on the ps4 because there were so many dualshocks around that they were all interfering with one another.
I think you can find the option in the PS4 settings>Wireless devices>Controller, there's a checkbox where you can set data via cable. My PS4 is wired but my laptop always had problems keeping a decent wifi connection with my modem once the PS4 controller was turned on. The first gen PS4's used the 2.4G band for wifi and BT and that band was already cluttered. Many household devices (microwaves, babyphones,...) use that frequency and have the potential to interfere with your ps4.

Just looked it up and it seems that new ps4 slims and pro have 5G wifi but still use 2.4G for the controller communication. If you want 5Ghz wifi only you have to set it in a menu though (or use a cable/powerline instead, damn wifi :p).
 

Gooberking

Solidly Mediocre
I think you can find the option in the PS4 settings>Wireless devices>Controller, there's a checkbox where you can set data via cable. My PS4 is wired but my laptop always had problems keeping a decent wifi connection with my modem once the PS4 controller was turned on. The first gen PS4's used the 2.4G band for wifi and BT and that band was already cluttered. Many household devices (microwaves, babyphones,...) use that frequency and have the potential to interfere with your ps4.

Just looked it up and it seems that new ps4 slims and pro have 5G wifi but still use 2.4G for the controller communication. If you want 5Ghz wifi only you have to set it in a menu though (or use a cable/powerline instead, damn wifi :p).
I'm betting you also have to have make sure your router supports the band for it not to revert back to the more common, default one which probably happens in a lot of homes.

Fortunately for me, I'm always wired both network and controller wise. My DS4 is largely just for turning on my PS4 at this point.
 

MKF30

Fujin and Ermac for MK 11
Premium Supporter
I don't believe the input issues is a PS4 issue, I play the game on two other versions Switch and Xbox and find a lot my inputs just don't come out or aren't responsive.