MK11 Johnny Cage General Discussion

[Qwark28]

I'm talking about showstopper my dude.

But thanks for that write-up! Appreciate it.

Kotal is just a funny one as he's one of the few characters who can challenge cage on his own game

F24 is hard to counter with b34 as f24 has so much range it's crazy hard to whiff punish as it will basically always reach you with a wavedash. B34 is horrible if they jump or abuse kotals big backdash well.

My best counter to f24 is jumping on read. I find if I use b34 I just really need to make a hard read and know what he's guna do or catch him trying to back off.

TL/Dr main issue, f24 dominates me in neutral and I can only squeeze occasional forceball trades and some jumping whiff punishes. My cage is rusty these days I think. Cheers for the advice man. Think I mostly need to be more patient, adjust to f2 being a fair amount faster.

Helpful though man.

MB, my brain defaults to outtake as that's the only one that's hell to play against.

You don't counter F2 with B34, it's that you have a slight advantage once you're within both character's big button ranges.

Whiff punishing F24 is not as difficult as it sounds, you're supposed to punish the F2 and not let the 4 come out, since it's super slow. If you miss that window, you can try to FBL the 4 because you're not going to make that whiff as well unless the kotal player is throwing it from fullscreen or sth.

Kotal's backdash isn't that great actually, most of the casts isn't, but if they're backdashing it means they just read you as a player, not much to do with your buttons. IIRC B34 has a large enough window as a move that you can confirm whether B3 whiffed and choose to finish it or not, can't remember exactly.

Counters to F24 are your D4, D3 and forceballs. With showstoppers forceballs you can actually check kotal's F2 after he ducks a fireball with your pokes. Your D4 is again amazing, your D3 though has less recovery frames and is near impossible to catch since it's 21f total and F2 is 19, meaning that unless you press the buttons at the same time you won't get punished for spamming it.

If he's the kind to wavedash into F2 a lot you can bait it with your own backdash. Doing F24 into cage on block is a bad mistake I still sometimes do as well. It comes from your opponent being frustrated at neutral. It being -7 means you will always jail a S1 bc IIRC it takes 1 frame to crouch but lab that yourself just to be sure. So don't be afraid of F24, your pokes don't have a lot of commitment in neutral and your fireball is a great movement and F2 check, and you still get another poke check afterwards. Assuming the F24 is coming and there's nothing you can do, don't jump. He can convert from jumps and blocking a F24 is a very good situation for you.

Another thing you got going is that your S1 starters all beat FB U2, kotal can't FB U2 you at all unless he happens to FB a B34 in neutral.

In general, take advantage of all the checks you have in neutral and after moves on block, and don't be afraid to block. Non-buluc kotal will 99% of the time be point blank at - frames after anything he does, you have the priviledge of being either + or at a distance where not much is guaranteed.

edit: as for jumping, your S1 antiairs his JK clean if there's not much lag and you're sharp, cage is one of the very few chars that can do that, but you have to be 100% on point and preferrably offline.

Or , you know , backdash and block and be safe. But I guess knowing MUs also isn't a TYM thing.

That depends on the frametrap, distance and what kind of backdash your char has. And you can still fireball and punish most of the cast for trying that. And I've probably played this matchup on a high lvl offline more than you have hours as cage, up to you if you want to listen or not.

 

[DrFolmer]

I think they fixed Jacqui's whiffing issue against Johnny with the string f314. I used to be able to block the first two and just spam d4 and have her miss (you can punish her better, it's just an example). I got clipped by the 41+3 ender all the time during a match and I was like "hmmmmmmmm"

So I just tested it, and the low profiling is definitely gone. It's not huge but it's taking away one beneficial situation in the matchup

 

[Tundra81]

The mirror, when you punish Mime Time with F3.......

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1187513677894815744

 

[Name v.5.0]

It doesn't always go your way, because it's not a guaranteed frametrap. You're all focusing on what's guaranteed and disregard how strong what you already have is.

Cage is a char that keeps you from moving too much with B34 and D4. When you do ex forceballs, you're forcing someone to either stand still or interrupt your F3. You have a ton of things to do after forceballs that they specifically need to be looking for.

You're frametrapping them to bait them into pressing buttons. You want them to S1 to beat your F3, or delay buttons/walk back to beat your delayed B34.

Your opp can either block, press buttons instantly or slowly. You're the one in control and making them squirm. If they're very patient, give them incentive to squirm. If they're pressing buttons, be patient and cash in your free damage. If they're jumping back, enforce your frametraps.

You lose nothing by being patient. You can make yourself lose a lot by trying to be stubborn about enforcing frametraps in a game where there aren't high/low mixups.

The entire idea behind a footsie game for cage is that you want your buttons to hit, not be blocked. You don't have to religiously enforce when the reaction to your frametraps is them hanging themselves for you.

That's what playing a footsie based character entails. And your tools are complimenting your ability to do so. You get to be solid in footsies with B34 and F3, jail into +6 off of your low pokes, an ass-to-grass D4 that can low profile other pokes, forceballs to non commitally throw in neutral, top 2 AA jab in the game, etc.

As for your specific example, them jumping back means they don't know the matchup well, that's also a huge tell you can take advantage of, + the amount of wallcarry from a blockstring into backjump.

Few things here.

I definitely understand how to play Cage. Just saying, when it comes to doing something, I tend to be unlucky. I don’t push it unless I’m at a life deficit.

I didn’t say they jump back. They tend to neutral or forward jump.

 

[Error404]

MB, my brain defaults to outtake as that's the only one that's hell to play against.

You don't counter F2 with B34, it's that you have a slight advantage once you're within both character's big button ranges.

Whiff punishing F24 is not as difficult as it sounds, you're supposed to punish the F2 and not let the 4 come out, since it's super slow. If you miss that window, you can try to FBL the 4 because you're not going to make that whiff as well unless the kotal player is throwing it from fullscreen or sth.

Kotal's backdash isn't that great actually, most of the casts isn't, but if they're backdashing it means they just read you as a player, not much to do with your buttons. IIRC B34 has a large enough window as a move that you can confirm whether B3 whiffed and choose to finish it or not, can't remember exactly.

Counters to F24 are your D4, D3 and forceballs. With showstoppers forceballs you can actually check kotal's F2 after he ducks a fireball with your pokes. Your D4 is again amazing, your D3 though has less recovery frames and is near impossible to catch since it's 21f total and F2 is 19, meaning that unless you press the buttons at the same time you won't get punished for spamming it.

If he's the kind to wavedash into F2 a lot you can bait it with your own backdash. Doing F24 into cage on block is a bad mistake I still sometimes do as well. It comes from your opponent being frustrated at neutral. It being -7 means you will always jail a S1 bc IIRC it takes 1 frame to crouch but lab that yourself just to be sure. So don't be afraid of F24, your pokes don't have a lot of commitment in neutral and your fireball is a great movement and F2 check, and you still get another poke check afterwards. Assuming the F24 is coming and there's nothing you can do, don't jump. He can convert from jumps and blocking a F24 is a very good situation for you.

Another thing you got going is that your S1 starters all beat FB U2, kotal can't FB U2 you at all unless he happens to FB a B34 in neutral.

In general, take advantage of all the checks you have in neutral and after moves on block, and don't be afraid to block. Non-buluc kotal will 99% of the time be point blank at - frames after anything he does, you have the priviledge of being either + or at a distance where not much is guaranteed.

edit: as for jumping, your S1 antiairs his JK clean if there's not much lag and you're sharp, cage is one of the very few chars that can do that, but you have to be 100% on point and preferrably offline.



That depends on the frametrap, distance and what kind of backdash your char has. And you can still fireball and punish most of the cast for trying that. And I've probably played this matchup on a high lvl offline more than you have hours as cage, up to you if you want to listen or not.

It works with the vast majority of the cast . All of them if they stand block the last hit of 124 as far as I'm aware. And no , I certainly know more about cage than you. So you can take your lecture to someone else.

 

[M.D.]

Clearly people stand blocking your 4 in 124 and rising to stand block f344 or 244 mid string is a giveaway they know and labbed the matchup. It shits on most followups and it makes you to commit to a frame perfect dash f3 if you don't want to reset neutral. Which if it gets read means Sonya 60%.

 

[ShepherdOfFire]

I've started to play Johnny again (Shock Jock for the vanilla forceballs and brass knuckles) and it felt so good to play. I must have leveled up between the time I played another character because I felt more comfortable with his gameplan than before.

His standing 1 is a great anti-air but I still don't want to use f3 to catch the opponent in the air. I play regulary against a great Kabal player and his jump in attacks are too scary to perform a f3 or even a standing 1 punish. And since I don't want to punish a jump 2 against Kabal he starts to use jump-in kick and "late jump-in kick" (don't remember the actual name of the tech but it is the jump-in kick in the last possible frames of the jump to grind even more plus frames on block) to get even more plus frames.

So my question is how do you punish jump ins when you're facing Kabal as Johnny ?

 

[Tundra81]

I've started to play Johnny again (Shock Jock for the vanilla forceballs and brass knuckles) and it felt so good to play. I must have leveled up between the time I played another character because I felt more comfortable with his gameplan than before.

His standing 1 is a great anti-air but I still don't want to use f3 to catch the opponent in the air. I play regulary against a great Kabal player and his jump in attacks are too scary to perform a f3 or even a standing 1 punish. And since I don't want to punish a jump 2 against Kabal he starts to use jump-in kick and "late jump-in kick" (don't remember the actual name of the tech but it is the jump-in kick in the last possible frames of the jump to grind even more plus frames on block) to get even more plus frames.

So my question is how do you punish jump ins when you're facing Kabal as Johnny ?

Outtake does better than the other 2 variations as far as keeping Kabal somewhat grounded IMO. RS and FB's do a pretty good job as far as AA's. I still struggle with Flawless Blocking jump kicks but that's probably your best bet. Jump kicks are just too strong in this game, I'd love to see them adjusted.

 

[DeftMonk]

I just did Johnnys forward throw brutality without doing camera first at all.... dunno if the requirements changed or what but I just hit 121212 and it did the brutality.

 

[M.D.]

I think you just have to use camera sometimes during the entire match or something like that, because I get it every time without doing anything right before.

 

[Cobainevermind87]

I just did Johnnys forward throw brutality without doing camera first at all.... dunno if the requirements changed or what but I just hit 121212 and it did the brutality.

You don't even have to mash 1 and 2, either or will do.

 

[LMNYHappyDaze]

I take back what I said about Sonic. I've been having some mild success with D4 forceballs. I guess it's real enough to throw out every once in a while lol

 

[DrFolmer]

I take back what I said about Sonic. I've been having some mild success with D4 forceballs. I guess it's real enough to throw out every once in a while lol

Granted they dont whiff lul. Also, it's sort of a compromise. I'd rather take the plusframes off d4 on hit, and I'd also rather spend a bar on forceballs after b34/f344 to be more plus than off d4.

Im a stubborn Shock Jock main, so it's full on d4 Np life over here

 

[Tundra81]

I have respect for you tried and true Shock Jock mains that never strayed away from the variation. I haven't touched Show Stopper in awhile and I've been bouncing back and forth between Top 1 and tha Jock. Been getting a ton of mileage off of the NP KB too.

Been quiet in here lately...

Surprised I didn't see any posts about Mustard's tier list.

The only thing I have to say is Mustard has claimed that he makes tier lists purely off of tournament results. I guess you could say Johnny won ECT but what else? Seems a little hypocritical but what do I know.

Oop gotta run I hear the downplay police coming....

 

[M.D.]

I saw that tier list and raged so hard my brain shut down so I forgot to come here and post.

It is hypocritical to say the least.

Cetrion literally SHITS on half the cast with untouchable zoning - meh, Cetrion
Cage beats Cetrion : OMFG HE SHITS ON HER WITH UNTOUCHABLE ZONING

umm.........have a taste of your own medicine how about that.

So basically Mustard logic is that, if he is good vs Cetrion and Liu, it doesn't matter how many bad matchups he has, he's top1.

That's the most ignorant shit I've heard, ever.

And he did not win ECT, lol. Kitana made sure of that.

 

[LMNYHappyDaze]

I don't even comment on tier lists anymore, I just shake my head because there's some new nonsense on it that everyone was to believe. Johnny is just the new flavor of the month. First it was Jax, then Liu, now Cage. It'll probably jump to Kitina or Kabal next. Just how these things go

 

[Rodney Quillz]

I have respect for you tried and true Shock Jock mains that never strayed away from the variation. I haven't touched Show Stopper in awhile and I've been bouncing back and forth between Top 1 and tha Jock. Been getting a ton of mileage off of the NP KB too.

Been quiet in here lately...

Surprised I didn't see any posts about Mustard's tier list.

The only thing I have to say is Mustard has claimed that he makes tier lists purely off of tournament results. I guess you could say Johnny won ECT but what else? Seems a little hypocritical but what do I know.

Oop gotta run I hear the downplay police coming....

DA JOCK!

Also someone has again reported me for “cheating” for using outtake.

Nrs plz nerf this variation befo I get dat azz banned.

 

[Tundra81]

Just stumbled across this gem on my lunch break...

I hate the MK11 Brutal, they should've done an updated version of the Shaolin Monks Fatal (2 minute mark if you don't want to watch 5 minutes of nut punches but why wouldn't you want to) That would've been pretty sick.

 

[ShepherdOfFire]

I have respect for you tried and true Shock Jock mains that never strayed away from the variation. I haven't touched Show Stopper in awhile and I've been bouncing back and forth between Top 1 and tha Jock. Been getting a ton of mileage off of the NP KB too.

Been quiet in here lately...

Surprised I didn't see any posts about Mustard's tier list.

The only thing I have to say is Mustard has claimed that he makes tier lists purely off of tournament results. I guess you could say Johnny won ECT but what else? Seems a little hypocritical but what do I know.

Oop gotta run I hear the downplay police coming....

I think the low/high forceballs are ass. I always MB them the wrong way. Yes the low/high forceballs destroy Cetrion and the rest of the cast, but I prefer the plus frames and the good old whiffing on females of the vanilla forceballs. So I'll stick with Shock Jock.
Showstopper ? No thanks, Johnny without nut punch isn't Johnny, that's it.

I wanted to talk about Mustard's tier list but I wanted to see M.D.'s reaction first .

---

Don't forget that tier lists are subjective. Usually I almost always agree with Mustard's lists, but for the first time I don't agree with one of his on many points : First I don't think Cage is THE best character in the game, I also disagree with placing Terminator in the list, Kollector being in Raiden's private tier and Kotal the unkillable character in Buluc being that low. I guess he has his reasons to order his list like that, and maybe he's right. I haven't seen the explanations on the Youtube replay yet but he's usually good at ranking characters and explaining why he thinks the character is strong/weak/balanced.

And, honestly, Johnny right now is strong enough to be top 5. Like I said, he may be not the best character to me, but he could be strong enough to be top 5 because he has a lot of great tools. BUT, if he's top 5, it is mostly because of the variation moves that require tweaks. Because even if Johnny becomes a more regular pick in tournament, I don't think any players will pick Shock Jock, because this variation is way weaker than the others without the unbreakable damage and comeback ability of Showstopper and the zoning ability of Outtake. When NRS will eventually nerf him (because he's gonna be nerfed, we know it), I hope they won't nerf anything that would make Johnny Shock Jock an even weaker variation.

 

[lordlosh]

The hype didnt last long ....
The D3 anti-air is just ridiculous. Its dumb as **** .....

 

[Name v.5.0]

The hype didnt last long ....
The D3 anti-air is just ridiculous. Its dumb as **** .....

So dumb.

See all of Ninjakillers "random" d3s? He fuckin knows you can stop Cage's forward momentum. Just throw it out cuz it fucking works.

 

[M.D.]

Yay finally someone learned the matchup. Took'em 5 months.

 

[LMNYHappyDaze]

How do y'all feel about the Noob MU, I might just be trash but it feels like I'm approaching it wrong.

 

[Rizz091]

How do y'all feel about the Noob MU, I might just be trash but it feels like I'm approaching it wrong.

I get beat by noobs all the time. And it's like they just straight up out play me every time lol. Also not sure how to approach it. I think I prefer Showstopper for it tho

 

[Tundra81]

How do y'all feel about the Noob MU, I might just be trash but it feels like I'm approaching it wrong.

Bro I was going to come here the other night and ask the same question 'cause I've been getting worked by Noob's lately, lol. He hits like a truck, you can't really zone him and he's got really good range. Been a tough MU lately for me lately as well.

Edit: I've been playing nothing but Outtake lately too, may Show Stopper would be the way to go like Rizz said.

 

[M.D.]

Noob's d4 is cancer as it destroys any jump in attempt and kills all your +6 walkback mindgames since you can't walkback because he clips you.

However he can't open you up either so it becomes a matter of who loses patience first, which can drag on for a lot. Not necessarily a fan of this matchup because it's very boring since you both play cat and mouse.

Also, I have finally flipped with the top1 imbecility so I did this:

Disclaimer: foul language VERY present