Turning Liu Kangs F43xx Tools Against Him (Short Guide)

[LawAbidingCitizen]

LawAbidingCitizen, lets go to Scar Twitter and give him this video, because he obviously not know how to play against Liu Kang with other top tier character like Sonya. And hope next time he didnt get annihilated with 9-1 on ft10 set.

Lol no, scar is a very good player but he gets salty like the rest. He also said D'Vorah was broke and top tier Prepatch. Him getting beat doesn't mean a character is broken. Top players at his skill level have lost 20-0 by bottom 5 characters several times during this games lifespan and most of them claimed the character was broke only to retract their statements later and alter thier Tier List at a layer date.

Players at a high level can condition opponents to get beat by even reactable tools. This isn't anything new and happens a lot. Remember pros getting hit by Mileena's 30f overhead in MKX or by Kotals Unblockable which is 40+ frames startup in MK11 and not punishing his moves with over 60f recovery. BTW 25f is widely considered reactable in the FGC let alone 40 or 60. Sonic says he reacts to 19f moves and I think most high level players react to 22f moves.

Should we point out Scar shouldn't have any room to talk being a Sonya main who has everything Liu has plus true 50/50's and the best zoning in the game. Which many other top players have pointed out including Ninjakilla and SylveRye among many others

 

[lordlosh]

Man i was talking about something specific, not Liu being broken.
And we are talking about the highest possible level. Scar is no ordinary just top player, he is one of the best.
Top players get hit by reactable shot, because they rely heavy on reads or when the opposite character have a lot of mixup to throw, and when a move have so many options, of course there is other possibility. Wrong input, trying to flawless block or to punish a move too early.

 

[PreNerf_]

Is this guy for real? Does he talk like this or is this guy tooling us? For real?!? I'm starting to wonder.

 

[PreNerf_]

@lordlosh do you know who I hate in this game more than anyone? Sonya .......

 

[Zer0_h0ur]

I get what he's trying to say about Scar, but idk man. Not to go OT here but Scar seems like he's just been off ever since he lost to Deoxys at Dreamhack Dallas. He made so many poor decisions, bad reads in that NK set that seemed so un-scar-like. Maybe it was the online delay, idkm but he also made a twitter post about mental health. Wondering if he's truly vibing with this game.

 

[lordlosh]

SonicFox was also saying he suffer some mentals problems, as well as being in constant depression. Tweedy also have some problems not while ago. I remember Dragon also mention something like that.
Is this something that all gamers suffer or particularly FCG players?

 

[NickDaGreek1983]

SonicFox was also saying he suffer some mentals problems, as well as being in constant depression. Tweedy also have some problems not while ago. I remember Dragon also mention something like that.
Is this something that all gamers suffer or particularly FCG players?

I think any average person knows why this happens. But it's neither polite nor politically correct to point it out.

 

[Kindred]

Just so we are on the same page @kcd117 , "Conditioning", in my world, is when you condition a specific response from your opponent, be it blocking, jumping, rolling, etc.

You are automatically conditioned not to press on his pressure/staggers by the nature of the risk/reward of his 9 frame F4 KB that deletes you when he gets a counter hit. How many of these do you need to hit to condition someone?

It sounds to me like you get conditioned pretty easily. If you are constantly scared to press buttons from the fear of the KB, that's completely on you bro. That tells me you arent seeing a pattern in your opponent, you're passive as fuck and you're scared to press buttons. ...you're getting outplayed.

But let's say you have superhuman reactions and can always tech the throw. How many wrong guesses does it take until a round is over by throws?

I can't tech throws for shit. So you know what I do? I neutral duck. And if I do get thrown, i dont press a button. If you are losing to someone throwing you for the majority of the match, then that's on you bro. People are going to do what works to win, you have to adapt. Yea it's easier said than done but hey, that's how you get better. Play against a Frost, grabbing is integral to her gameplan and she has 2 KBs off her throws. So you just sit there and do fuck all? No, you look for when she is most susceptible to grab you and you neutral duck. You might not get it every time but all you need is to punish the person a few times for them to drastically reduce their grabs.

If you get hit by bike kick amplified you are conditioned by his obnoxious safe jump to either block it and take the guess, take a risk rolling forward or try your luck flawless blocking the jump in and taking the risk of getting deleted by his parry KB. How many 60% combos you need to hit people with before they learn it is risky to try to play the game again after he hits you once?

lol It sounds to me like you want a universal button that shuts down his safe jump after the BK. Guess what, that's not how the game works. He knocked you down, he has the advantage (like any other character) and you have to try and read what hes going to do next to choose the correct response, whether it's a delay wake up, an U2, a roll or wtv. You have a lot of options.

When he throws a low fireball you are conditioned not to jump and take the chip bc he anti-airs you for free if he spends the bar and from the range where it matters, it is a straight 50/50 trying to avoid the chip by jumping or holding block and giving up space for him to back up as long as he has the bar. How much chip/hits people can afford to take in order to chase him down with enough HP to get something started?

Wtf kind of scrubby argument is that come on man. You're describing getting zoned out. Deal with it just like you would deal with any other zoners. Dash block, dash crouch, wait your turn. If you're losing consistently because of zoning, I don't know what to tell you.

... it doesn't matter how good you are, you are still susceptible to make wrong guesses, and you'll have to guess a lot.

There it is. That's why you're losing. You're trying to guess. Instead of thinking about ALL the options he has, think of the options he's most likely going to go for. If you've been blocking passively the whole time, do you really think F43~parry or F43~Fireball have as high of a chance of being done as a F43~Grab? You shouldnt be guessing.

 

[LawAbidingCitizen]

I get what he's trying to say about Scar, but idk man. Not to go OT here but Scar seems like he's just been off ever since he lost to Deoxys at Dreamhack Dallas. He made so many poor decisions, bad reads in that NK set that seemed so un-scar-like. Maybe it was the online delay, idkm but he also made a twitter post about mental health. Wondering if he's truly vibing with this game.

Yeah remember Sonics D'Vorah prepatch vs Scars Sonya Prepatch it was like 20-1 in sonics favor.

 

[kcd117]

Just so we are on the same page @kcd117 , "Conditioning", in my world, is when you condition a specific response from your opponent, be it blocking, jumping, rolling, etc.


It sounds to me like you get conditioned pretty easily. Im actually glad if I can get a LK player to waste his F43U3(KB) in the midscreen since he gets shit dmg from it as opposed to the corner. And if you are constantly scared to press buttons from the fear of the KB, that's completely on you bro. That tells me you arent seeing a pattern in your opponent, you're passive af and you're scared to press buttons. ...you're getting outplayed.


I can't tech throws for shit. So you know what I do? I neutral duck. And if I do get thrown, i dont press a button. If you are losing to someone throwing you for the majority of the match, then that's on you bro. People are going to do what works to win, you have to adapt. Yea it's easier said than done but hey, that's how you get better. Play against a Frost, grabbing is integral to her gameplan and she has 2 KBs off her throws. So you just sit there and do fuck all? No, you look for when she is most susceptible to grab you and you neutral duck. You might not get it every time but all you need is to punish the person a few times for them to drastically reduce their grabs.


lol It sounds to me like you want a universal button that shuts down his safe jump after the BK. Guess what, that's not how the game works. He knocked you down, he has the advantage (like any other character) and you have to try and read what hes going to do next to choose the correct response, whether it's a delay wake up, an U2, a roll or wtv. You have a lot of options.


Wtf kind of scrubby argument is that come on man. You're describing getting zoned out. Deal with it just like you would deal with any other zoners. Dash block, dash crouch, wait your turn. If you're losing consistently because of zoning, I don't know what to tell you.


There it is. That's why you're losing. You're trying to guess. Instead of thinking about ALL the options he has, think of the options he's most likely going to go for. If you've been blocking passively the whole time, do you really think F43~parry or F43~Fireball have as high of a chance of being done as a F43~Grab? You shouldnt be guessing.

1 - We are on the same page about the meaning of the word. I just hope we’re also on the same page on the practical effect of moves that cover the majority of the other character’s options while leading into pressure and mixups.

2 - Pressing buttons against Liu is extremely risky bc with or without the KB the guessing game always favors him unless you hit hella hard. Any simple conversion can A) lead into amplified bike kicks into free pressure after the safejump setup or B) lead into flying kick to reset the neutral if he wants to lame you out. He can literally chose between making you work for the space u just conquered or making you guess if he feels like making a comeback or something.

3 - I’ll definitely keep in mind to risk losing 25-40% neutral ducking to possibly get the same dmg with a D2 KB once in a match. Don’t know ig you are familiar to the concept of risk/reward, but I’ll try to make myself clear, after that KB is spent, ig I neutral duck a throw I get like 25% dmg into a neutral reset. If he does any mid instead of the grab I take the same 25-40% into an oki situation where I have to guess in the same situation again. One thing is knowing it is an option and using it on a hard read, other is seeing people getting throw looped and say “just neutral duck bro” when the agressor has 71717 mids that lead into more dmg and shittier situations. Not even gonna bother about the “don’t try to tech it” part.

4 - Are you really trying to justify an okizeme where literally the only option out of his pressure is to flawless block reversal and even then he has the option to hit you for unbreakable 60% in case you go for it? Just lol

5 - Just incase u really didn’t understand what I was trying to say and making an effort to miss the entire point, I’ll word it in a clearer way: NO ONE in this game makes you guess with a projectile like he does. And I don’t even play characters that struggle against it that much, I’m just poiting out how dumb is it that you can’t jump his projectile when he has a bar AND it hits low forcing you to take the chip AND it also makes you second guess your movement between the amp and non amp version. Lots of characters have projectile mindgames in this game, some are high and can be amolified to catch movement like Sonya’s or Baraka’s, some are overhead but can be jumped out before the the MB part comes out like Shang’s or Frost’s, but no other projectile in this game will force you to chose between taking the chip or taking the dmg and then when you take the chip force you to guess between amplified and non amplified. And I am not even factoring his straight fireball in the equation when you are looking for the low one.

6 - That is it. I have, somehow, never thought about that! Since he has like 30 options out of every normal imma just pretend he has 2 and “read” which one he is gonna use bc if I do that the other 28 will go away! If I “read” the wrong one I’m am 100% getting outplayed and there is no guessing involved.

I’ll see myself out of this argument as we are more than clearly not talking about the same level of Liu Kang here.

 

[Kindred]

1 - We are on the same page about the meaning of the word. I just hope we’re also on the same page on the practical effect of moves that cover the majority of the other character’s options while leading into pressure and mixups.

2 - Pressing buttons against Liu is extremely risky bc with or without the KB the guessing game always favors him unless you hit hella hard. Any simple conversion can A) lead into amplified bike kicks into free pressure after the safejump setup or B) lead into flying kick to reset the neutral if he wants to lame you out. He can literally chose between making you work for the space u just conquered or making you guess if he feels like making a comeback or something.

3 - I’ll definitely keep in mind to risk losing 25-40% neutral ducking to possibly get the same dmg with a D2 KB once in a match. Don’t know ig you are familiar to the concept of risk/reward, but I’ll try to make myself clear, after that KB is spent, ig I neutral duck a throw I get like 25% dmg into a neutral reset. If he does any mid instead of the grab I take the same 25-40% into an oki situation where I have to guess in the same situation again. One thing is knowing it is an option and using it on a hard read, other is seeing people getting throw looped and say “just neutral duck bro” when the agressor has 71717 mids that lead into more dmg and shittier situations. Not even gonna bother about the “don’t try to tech it” part.

4 - Are you really trying to justify an okizeme where literally the only option out of his pressure is to flawless block reversal and even then he has the option to hit you for unbreakable 60% in case you go for it? Just lol

5 - Just incase u really didn’t understand what I was trying to say and making an effort to miss the entire point, I’ll word it in a clearer way: NO ONE in this game makes you guess with a projectile like he does. And I don’t even play characters that struggle against it that much, I’m just poiting out how dumb is it that you can’t jump his projectile when he has a bar AND it hits low forcing you to take the chip AND it also makes you second guess your movement between the amp and non amp version. Lots of characters have projectile mindgames in this game, some are high and can be amolified to catch movement like Sonya’s or Baraka’s, some are overhead but can be jumped out before the the MB part comes out like Shang’s or Frost’s, but no other projectile in this game will force you to chose between taking the chip or taking the dmg and then when you take the chip force you to guess between amplified and non amplified. And I am not even factoring his straight fireball in the equation when you are looking for the low one.

6 - That is it. I have, somehow, never thought about that! Since he has like 30 options out of every normal imma just pretend he has 2 and “read” which one he is gonna use bc if I do that the other 28 will go away! If I “read” the wrong one I’m am 100% getting outplayed and there is no guessing involved.

I’ll see myself out of this argument as we are more than clearly not talking about the same level of Liu Kang here.

2 – Again, if you’re guessing, you’re not playing right. If you read wrong and he gets a BK in, you have options after that just like he has options. LK has to hope you don’t press buttons at the right time or else he loses his turn or he can get punished full combo. There’s a big risk/reward on both sides if you know what you’re doing. There are decisions that constantly have to be made. It sounds to me like you’re just really passive because you think 10000 options are going to occur along with 60% combos. You’re fear of pressing a button doesn’t mean the character is the problem, you are.

3 - You don’t get it. The point is that you have to take a chance with your read. That’s true no matter the character. Why do you interrupt Jax’s F3 or Jacqui’s F3 or Scorpion’s F3? Same principle. Regardless of the amount of options, you do it because you picked up on a pattern. You are taking an educated guess based on previous patterns. This is basic fighting game mechanic. Just because you don’t see patterns, aren’t adapting and are passive af, doesn’t mean the character needs to be nerfed.

4 – no. Re-read what I wrote. I never mentioned flawless blocking or anything. All Im saying is that his Jump in is a risk because if he always does it, I have options to stop that. Everything he can do, you have an answer for and in many cases, 1 answer from you can negate many of his options. Personally, getting knocked down by an amplified BK, I delay getting up to see what they do or roll away, then respond accordingly.

5 - Frost has a projectile that does a lot more chip and can’t really be jumped. I don’t understand why you are guessing or why you would even jump to begin with. Jumping against some characters that zone might work but you shouldn’t jump against others, like Liu Kang, Frost, Noob. If you can’t get in, then that’s on you because (1) most of his fireballs are highs (2) he has to manage his meter (3) getting the upper hand means you can outzone him pretty easily (especially if you use someone with a reflect or fast recovery like NW, Frost, Sonya, Baraka). LK is a rushdown character and I think Ive met 1 LK that only zones in KL and that shit didn’t last.

6 – This is a pattern I notice with ppl that bitch about characters, they overblow the options of the opponents. The point is, he has many options but not all will have the same chance as being down. That’s true for EVERY character. That’s how you play the game. You pick your moments based on what the opponent has been doing and what he’s likely to do. LK is a good character, but people have patterns that you should be exploiting.

 

[lordlosh]

kcd117, dont try it, he is Liu Kang player obviously and try to downplay him.

 

[Kindred]

kcd117, dont try it, he is Liu Kang player obviously and try to downplay him.

Bro this has nothing to do with LK, Im talking about basics of fighting games. Regardless of the options my opponent has, I have my own options to respond and I have to read what he is most likely going to do even if he has 4 or 12 options.
Hell I use freaking Frost and blow LK players in KL.

 

[Hellbringer]

I believe liu kang has probably the best string with f43U3, really good staggers. Both throws have KB and his other KB's are pretty good, a really good fatal blow, good zoning, both variations viable. He might be the best character, i can't really say.
But what does it matter if hes the best or top 3 or top 5 or top 10. Hes deffinitly more manageable to play against then some of the mkx top tiers.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

This the NRS way of balancing. They just changing the guard, instead of proper balance through the whole roster.

What are the fighting games that currently have ‘proper balance throughout the whole roster’?

Because MK11 is more balanced than SFV, SamSho, DBFZ, Smash, and nearly every other major fighting game that’s out. And more balanced than the entire last generation too (SF4, any version of Marvel, Melee, and most of the other beloved major titles).

I feel like people are chasing this mythical fighting game that doesn’t have tiers. And if it does exist, it’s probably dead, because it’s boring.

 

[Kindred]

What are the fighting games that currently have ‘proper balance throughout the whole roster’?

Because MK11 is more balanced than SFV, SamSho, DBFZ, Smash, and nearly every other major fighting game that’s out. And more balanced than the entire last generation too (SF4, any version of Marvel, Melee, and most of the other beloved major titles).

I feel like people are chasing this mythical fighting game that doesn’t have tiers. And if it does exist, it’s probably dead, because it’s boring.

He just wants a nerf because it's easier than having to adapt

 

[Hellbringer]

Don't forget Liu Kang is THE REAL CHAMP!

 

[y0da]

Am I the only one punishing Liu Dung in his gaps? F43gap, F33gap?

 

[SOULWARRIOR 71K]

He just wants a nerf because it's easier than having to adapt

How about LK players should have to adapt to not having a 9 frame mid, making f43 -9, or putting a gap between f43 similar to Shao Kahn's f34?
Anyone one of those changes would make LK significantly less braindead.

The counter argument basically boils down to "just guess right every time bro". I can respect if people were just honest about it. I can openly say, I hate dealing with stagger pressure and guessing that leads to massive damage if you guess incorrectly. You enjoy making people guess, he doesn't like guessing. Plain and simple.

 

[LawAbidingCitizen]

I agree with Kindred above. He is literally explaining every fighting game, options, counters and reads are apart of every fighting game I know of. One of the best ways to play at a high level is to do what will be the most favorable to you (Risk vs Reward) based off player patterns displayed in previous sets or earlier in the same match. You wouldn't try to punish something the other player doesn't even use or hasn't! That would be risky to say the least. All characters have many options off strings and multiple strings and specials to use. This isn't something Liu is blessed with having alone. every character In MK11 has enough options to condition the opponent and many of them are better options than Liu Has.

Liu does have good staggers, good KB's, a good FB, good damage in the corner and good damage midscreen with KB, good mids, good frame traps, good AA's and above average projectiles but none of it is the best in the game:

For example:
Jacqui has better staggers, a better 9f Mid, gap closer (safe and unreactable) And better pressure.

Sonya has better: Pressure, Staggers, Zoning, Mix, Damage without KB/FB.

Jax has better: Staggers, Mids, Zoning when heated, Fatal Blow, has a CMD Grab, mix, Gap Closers, Better Range, Wakeup & Flawless Block U+2/U+3.

Cetrion has better: Zoning, Staggers, AA's, Wakeup and U3/U2 off Flawless block, less gaps.

Kabal has better: Mix, hurtboxless normals, Range, Zoning, Gap Closers, Fatal Blow, Pressure is about the same, AA's, Wakeups and FB launcher (U+3/U+2), no gaps.

Cassie has better: Range, Mids, Staggers, Zoning(equal), Pressure even if not better, FB is about average since it connects in combos and has almost no scaling, Almost no gaps.

I shouldn't have to explain. Its like a few of you are so salty about LK that you feel he is the best at everything and ignore his flaws and completely ignore the rest of the cast with all of their amazing tools.
Liu Kang is very good at pressure up close with above average projectiles but doesn't have everything he does snowball but that involves you making several bad reads. Not to mention several other characters are very oppressive and snowball just like him if not worse:
Geras
Jax
Jacqui
Sonya
Cassie
Sub Zero

All have snowball potential and very good pressure and even true 50/50's in the right hands.
Its fine that characters have good strong tools, its what makes them fun and unique. Every one of them have counters to thier tools, reads are present in every fighting game and every character in MK11 has tons of options and can trick even the best players. What I posted above is accurate. You can react to the options I listed. Sometimes its in your favor to scout out certain tools especially when they are reactable. If you can't react to LK doing F43xxAmpedLowFireball/F43xxAmpedHFB/F43xxParry/F43xxThrow

1. you are not using the OS that counters those tools and nearly all of his options. Its very easy to do.
2. Your reaction is too slow and you need to practice your reactions (use the method I provided in OP)

You are not the first person to ask for unjust needs to a character because of salt and lack of MU knowledge. The truth is NRS will not nerf him like that. The matches we see of Liu vs other characters seems even for the most part and is completely winable by everyone on the cast. He doesn't have game breaking tools and has plenty of weaknesses. They actually did nerf him last patch in his Lohan Quan variation and made the other more viable. The only thing he got considered a buff was better jailing. He was always able to jail into 12 its just easier now, also its worth mentioning the entire cast received the same buffs to pokes hit adv so everything he received in LHQ was nerfs besides the jailing which everyone got.
This is the version of LK that NRS says is balanced so I think you will be disappointed if you think he is getting merged again (if he ever gets adjustments it will be minor).

There is plenty of resources above to help you in the MU, if you want to get better vs him then take what you can from it. If you just want him or others nerfed because you refuse to put the time in the lab then don't tag me.
@lordlosh

 

[Kindred]

How about LK players should have to adapt to not having a 9 frame mid, making f43 -9, or putting a gap between f43 similar to Shao Kahn's f34?
Anyone one of those changes would make LK significantly less braindead.

The counter argument basically boils down to "just guess right every time bro". I can respect if people were just honest about it. I can openly say, I hate dealing with stagger pressure and guessing that leads to massive damage if you guess incorrectly. You enjoy making people guess, he doesn't like guessing. Plain and simple.

If guessing is what you think you must be doing to win, then they can nerf LK to the ground, you're still going to get blown up

 

[Kanalratte]

There it is. That's why you're losing. You're trying to guess. Instead of thinking about ALL the options he has, think of the options he's most likely going to go for.

lol. what's the difference between "guessing" and "think of the options he's most likely going to go for"? you are STILL GUESSING. man that downplay is now becoming absurd. just fix his F4 hitbox and he'll become less braindead. and it would be a fix not a NERF. he can keep his 489032843908439 options after F4 so all liu kang players don't commit hara kiri.

 

[SaSSolino]

@Kindred come on man, stop downplaying Liu Kang literally every chance you get.

 

[LawAbidingCitizen]

lol. what's the difference between "guessing" and "think of the options he's most likely going to go for"? you are STILL GUESSING. man that downplay is now becoming absurd. just fix his F4 hitbox and he'll become less braindead. and it would be a fix not a NERF. he can keep his 489032843908439 options after F4 so all liu kang players don't commit hara kiri.

Just curious, do you think your opponents have to guess between Subs Overhead/Low and his Staggers and frame traps?

 

[LawAbidingCitizen]

Kindred

@Kindred come on man, stop downplaying Liu Kang literally every chance you get.

Kindred has never down played Liu Kang. He has said Liu is very strong multiple times. Its these two clowns acting like they lose because of guess factor when every character has mix: frame traps, number of hit, some have 50/50's, staggers and Shimmy which all create "Guess"
I call it reads because I make most not all of those situations more favorable by observing my opponents patterns and making reads based off that.

These people are acting like only liu has multiple options that force guess, its absurd. There issue isn't with the character its with the meta (Strike Throw).

All he did was simply state you can make reads which help your risk vs reward. This is important because they said above liu kang can win alone with only F43 mix which is absurd. Might be worth mentioning they ignored the OS that beats the F43xx options.