2D Vs. 3D Discussion

[Tim Static]

dont mean any harm, but you cant find one person who knows you that wouldnt agree.

again, no offense. it wasnt an insult.

 

[STORMS]

Since this topic is arguable I thought it deserved its own thread in order to keep other threads on track.

As always, keep the discussion civilized. Thanks.

 

[MKF30]

dont mean any harm, but you cant find one person who knows you that wouldnt agree.

again, no offense. it wasnt an insult.

It's ok I'm not insulted, just wasn't sure why I was brought up per-se. I'd hope you don't have an issue with me over something in the past, I'm more then willing to bury all that and move on


If you ever want to discuss something man, just IM me. You sounded a little upset when you typed that or maybe that's just how I read it. I can understand people being skeptic, really. I just feel IMO(since we all have one) that I think THTB mentioned it that at this point there's some other things to worry about or perhaps wonder about(like patches this time) I'm guessing there will be since DLC was confirmed, WB has to know what a patch is...lol Midway sure didn't.


Some people may agree with me on the dashing not being that big of a deal(I'm sure some disagree that's fine)

I think Check's idea of having a breaker/button alone is a good idea and also QR being automatic as well.

However, for the charging element. I'm fine with a dash, but if there was a run I'd be fine with that too but we have a dash. And for blocking, I don't see how a block button is a problem. Holding back in MK would fail IMO.

But Storms, you're right dude lol I think we need another thread for this topic lol.

Editk I see Storms beat me to it lol...I was going to name the thread Dash vs. Run, Block Button or none but nice idea man.

 

[STORMS]

Posts have been moved to an appropriate thread.

Carry on.

Let's just keep it civilized.

 

[9.95]

I think that we need to wait to play the game before we see how the dash is implemented. I've already said, and I'm positive that I'm right, that the dash is going to effectively kill chip based rushdown. We haven't seen enough of the game to know if rushdown will be implemented differently, but for now, we wait on the game and the dash mechanic.

I do, however prefer a run button...and there is NOTHING wrong with that because of how well it has been implemented in the past... and that has been the main point of the run button... it wasn't broken, so there was no need to fix/change it, and that's why those of us who liked that mechanic want to see it return in it's UMK3 form.

Pete, regarding Tim's comment, he definitely didn't mean it as an insult. It's just that(and I say this very light-heartedly) that you come across as someone who would eat MkNuggets if Mcdonals made them, simply because of the MK reference...even if they were made with 100% man nipples, and you would claim they are delicious. This is because you always run to defend MK, regardless of how poorly it has performed in the last 10 years. I know you use your "I am a team fan, so I never stray from my team" analogy, but that isn't quite 100% the right way to look at things... I'm a die hard Mets fan, but just because I love the Mets and won't root for another team, doesn't mean I am not capable of pointing out their flaws(and there are MANY). Once in a while, it's ok to tell people that there is something about MK that you don't like.

Also... your time is coming... I'm gonna come find you on Staten Island and drag you to some casuals or a tournament...LOL. Seriously, we have to get you out to chill soon...we're doing casuals almost every week with myself, Rob, Shock, Summoning... it's great and you should def. be a part of it because you're so close. Hell, I have room in my car this Sunday if you want to go to Summer Jam.

 

[9.95]

I also wanted to comment on patches... there should be no need for them... the game should be tested enough before release that it's not a broken pile of poo that has to be fixed over and over again. The mistakes should be ironed out before release instead of using a DLC patch as a crutch to fall back on.

 

[REO]

the thing with 3d vs 2d is that you have signature moves become useless in a 3d plane such as cyraxs bombs and reptiles forceballs.

and the ppl asking for a block button to be removed and replaced with holding back. you need to realize the retarded scenarios this is going to cause. such as human smoke and ermacs teleport being rediculous hard to block since its an automatic instant cross up.

 

[9.95]

the thing with 3d vs 2d is that you have signature moves become useless in a 3d plane such as cyraxs bombs and reptiles forceballs.

and the ppl asking for a block button to be removed and replaced with holding back. you need to realize the retarded scenarios this is going to cause. such as human smoke and ermacs teleport being rediculous hard to block since its an automatic instant cross up.

Not to mention that the Block button is a dynamic block. In MK you choose when you block, whereas in SF, if you hold back, the moment your opponent attacks, you enter block animation, even if you don't want to.

 

[AC1984]

If I see MK to replace blk with holding back....I wont even try and play that game.....I would rather pick SSF4....

 

[THTB]

I think that we need to wait to play the game before we see how the dash is implemented. I've already said, and I'm positive that I'm right, that the dash is going to effectively kill chip based rushdown. We haven't seen enough of the game to know if rushdown will be implemented differently, but for now, we wait on the game and the dash mechanic.

9, I'm kinda confused as to how dash is going to ruin rushdown, unless MK9 plays like older MKs. Besides, even if run was included, wouldn't it have to be able to cancel normals like jabs in order to work in that manner anyway?

 

[Juggs]

I've accepted that no new MK will be as good as UMK3. It may not ever be similar to UMK3 ever again. Which is fine, UMK3 will probably always be played anyway. Just hope they test the game this time, and come out with a bunch of revisions.

2D vs 3D? 2D is better, way better. Also a lot more fun. My opinion though.

 

[Krayzie]

I think the double tap dash will be good. I'm pretty happy so far.

What I really want to do is get my hands on it already...

 

[AC1984]

THTB, the run button creates opportunities to rush down very fast....that might be run jabs or just run and kick...basically keep the other player blocking and panic....The dash we saw wont do that effect at all....unles someone does Kick,ff,kick,ff or whatever...which IMO sounds stupid anyway...The run button will make that game fast and alive again.

 

[9.95]

9, I'm kinda confused as to how dash is going to ruin rushdown, unless MK9 plays like older MKs. Besides, even if run was included, wouldn't it have to be able to cancel normals like jabs in order to work in that manner anyway?

Not necessarily. Actually, MK4's Run doesn't cancel jabs, at least not the same way, yet MK4 is fast and frenetic because of the way Run works in that game. I should prob. have been a little more in detail, but it's actually a combination of dash + throw techs that will kill MK rushdown. Dashing might be a semi-method of rushdown, but you're only going to use it to get inside...but once you're inside the throw tech mechanic takes over. Why would I go for chip based damage, which is done with normals, when a throw beats a normal? I'll always go for a throw, and if my throw is teched, the situation is reset and rusdown is stopped. You're not going to do punch, punch, dash, punch, dash, punch, dash.. that's not going to work for rushdown. The other thing is, since throws beat normals, if I go for normals for chip, and my opponent predicts throw instead of normal, I'll eat a throw because the tech attempt will throw me...so I will never go for chip in favor of a throw in that scenario. Since it basically always results in the situation being reset, chip based rushdown is effectively killed.

 

[DanCock]

I also wanted to comment on patches... there should be no need for them... the game should be tested enough before release that it's not a broken pile of poo that has to be fixed over and over again. The mistakes should be ironed out before release instead of using a DLC patch as a crutch to fall back on.

there will be a need for them. even every ones current fav SF4 has gotten a patch. MK3/umk3 needed patches.

 

[Krayzie]

Actually, thats very interesting, because my teacher told us something about patches since he worked for Activision.

Yes, MK9 needs to be patched even upon release. We already know it will need it, even for minor flaws. However, some companies have patches ready on purpose. They release an unfinished game, and patch it after, which is exactly what I noticed on MKvsDC.

MK9 does need to fully test MK9, but thats not to say that they need to be superhuman and not have to patch it, because flaws do happen.

 

[STORMS]

There shouldn't even be an argument over a game not needing patches at all... it's the games that needed them and were neglected. Now, that's arguable.

 

[THTB]

Not necessarily. Actually, MK4's Run doesn't cancel jabs, at least not the same way, yet MK4 is fast and frenetic because of the way Run works in that game. I should prob. have been a little more in detail, but it's actually a combination of dash + throw techs that will kill MK rushdown. Dashing might be a semi-method of rushdown, but you're only going to use it to get inside...but once you're inside the throw tech mechanic takes over. Why would I go for chip based damage, which is done with normals, when a throw beats a normal? I'll always go for a throw, and if my throw is teched, the situation is reset and rusdown is stopped. You're not going to do punch, punch, dash, punch, dash, punch, dash.. that's not going to work for rushdown. The other thing is, since throws beat normals, if I go for normals for chip, and my opponent predicts throw instead of normal, I'll eat a throw because the tech attempt will throw me...so I will never go for chip in favor of a throw in that scenario. Since it basically always results in the situation being reset, chip based rushdown is effectively killed.

Ah I gotcha. Wouldn't frame advantages + high/mid/low hit levels make a difference in rushdown, too? That's where MK9 looks like it's going.

 

[9.95]

Ah I gotcha. Wouldn't frame advantages + high/mid/low hit levels make a difference in rushdown, too? That's where MK9 looks like it's going.

That's if they choose to use overheads. The "mid" hit, if you really think about it, has to be blocked high, so it really is a high hit level that attacks downward forcing you to stand to block. The true mid-level hit is very 3d by nature, but that doesn't mean it isn't used successfully in 2d games. All overheads in SF are actually "mid" hits. Also, realize, in MK you have a block button, and in ALL 2d MK games, you could block ALL moves, high or low by holding the block...the direction of the attack did not matter(block jump kicks with a ducking block)...the only exception to this being the sweep, which if timed correctly, you could blue block while standing. This will inherently change the very nature of the block button in MK and is not what they should do. The way the run button is used in UMK3 actually creates frame advantage...actually, the block button does in a way too.. as it allows you out of your animation and cancels to block allowing things like kara-jabbing. I don't really see them going for frame advantage methods with MK9...I'm not even sure they understand what that concept really is actually...and if it does exist in MK9, I would be more inclined to think they didn't even realize they did it.

 

[MKF30]

lol, actually Phil I hate McDonalds, BK is better and I love their Chicken sandwiches(it's ok you didn't know) lol

Ok dude here's the thing, and I assure you I mean this with full respect. Some of which I agree with, others not. Your notion is off a bit concerning my likeness for MK for not seeing the issues(I do believe me), and I honestly believe some people on here(not everyone) but some are blinded to the fact that "I'm a hardcore MK fan for life" thus I can't ever see what's wrong or the flaws of MK games....not the case at all....I've even stated several times now(not only on here but mainly on MKO, MKU, classic etc other sites probably more since it's old news already) that the "3D MK's have tons of issues" I don't deny this, I have never denied this...and although I may enjoy playing MK games in general, it doesn't mean I don't know what's wrong with them.

Now, in saying so that doesn't mean I will just bash Ed Boon for the sake of bashing...I mean this is the same guy who gave us UMK3(which people forget I honestly believe) and if not for him, we wouldn't have any MK regardless of your favorites. Now, an example of this was the podkast. I listened to most of it and although it had it's bright points, it also had it's lows(no offense) like I said I don't mean this as a shot but let me explain first...there was a good 5 minutes roughly of some "Ed Boon bashing" now, I can see your gripe with the 3D MK's and issues but come on...if you had a chat with Ed do you really think that's respectful and a good way for him to listen to you? lol Now I'm going to use an analogy here, it's like when you go to a concert and you want to see the band play music right? Yet some of them now tend to go off into this rant about "political banter" that nobody cares about...I mean come on I feel like saying, you're there to play and have fans listen to your music, nobody cares how you feel about this president or that one. Not the time or the place. Know what I'm saying dude? Just saying, try to look it at from Ed's point of view(with some of the remarks made about him) and the fans listening who want to hear about MK stuff.

They read the twitters, forums etc(even take the time to play with us now which a lot of the developers do but don't have to do...) I just feel some of us can take a more mature route without the bashing and approach it differently(and believe me I have criticized Midway for not having patches or letting the MK team have more time with previous MK's)....I mean think about it, if you come home and your hubby or wifey or BF/GF whoever makes you dinner or cake and although you'll "settle for it" or kind of eat it for the sake of eating it, then next day you discuss with your friends "my wife can't cook for shit, she's horrible and needs to improve etc" how productive is that exactly? or...

Do you talk with her privately/contact her and say look honey, I'm going to be honest this could use some improvements with this or that etc in a nice, mature fashion. I'm just saying there's a fine line between bashing and constructive criticism.

Point is, you have to blame the fans sometimes too overall. Sites like MKO that have priority over sites like this sadly have fans that don't know what they're talking about half the time or want someone costume as more importantance then say gameplay...But Look at MK9, I mean to say that the MK team "never" listens to us would be a bunch of nonsense not for nothing, when we got a 2D game with oldschool mechanics and some newer elements added. Now again, I'm not blindly defending every MK game or Ed. I am well aware of the flaws. Just so you know Phil. Now sure I would have liked a 2D Mk earlier but it is what it is, I mean look at Capcom although they kept their 2D plane, it took them how long to give their fans a new SF game? lol So nobody's perfect. That's how I look at it.

Now the thing with Tim I already stated it wasn't a big deal, I knew what he meant if didn't realize how the tone comes out. Tim and I are a lot alike in terms of "posting our views" we're both firm and sometimes others will take it the wrong way and go into defensive or attack/flame mode. I've seen this on here and mainly on MKU(surely you know what I'm talking about lol) I've dealt with this on MKU and so has Tim.

But I see what he's saying, I just want him and you to both understand that just because I'm a BIG MK fanatic doesn't make me blind to the flaws of the series. I mean you're talking to a guy that's played all the 3D games online at high level, trust me I know the flaws lol. They needed patching desperately. But Midway well, we all know the deal with that now where is WB has money, has the sources and tools that the MK guys need to give us a good game

And I have to say Dancock couldn't be more CORRECT! And he took the words right out of my mouth before I thought them, even the "godly games" such as COD, Halo and SF4 had/needed patches...which proves my point that no game is perfect, there is no such thing as getting it right on the first shot. Let's be honest, just a simple question dude. If you made a game and put it out, had the tools etc took 2 years to make it. Can you guarantee me that once it's released it won't have one issue wrong with it that will need a patch in the future?

God knows I wouldn't lol, even if I had all the tools, money etc even the richer, most successful gaming companies like Bungie, Activision, Capcom have had tons of games that needed some patching...so at the end of the day Phil, it's far better to at least have the patches there should there be an issue then not(like the past 4 MK games online that needed some work/fixing) with certain things....

I also agree with REO, AC thank god others share my enthusiasm for the block button lol. To make it into a SF/KI holding back=instant fail....worst idea ever for an MK game. Let the other games have their mechanics that they've always had, and let MK keep theirs that they've always had. If someone doesn't like it, I just suggest not to play MK then if they hate the block button that much. I'm sure there you and I agree Phil

Concerning the Dash vs. Run, well like I've said earlier. I'm for either, as long as it works and they give us a "charging option" to prevent turtlefests I'm all good. Now, for the people out there that may not like the run I can understand their gripe to a point....to the people out there that want a run, I can understand their reasons as well. It is a good mechanic, however a Dash can also be good. I think reasons that I can think of why some may not like the run button would be in a case of NW's character where although he's made to rushdown, his LK starter can't always be blocked/dealt with via a D+LK. I take it this is one reason why some people hate NW's rush game lol. Now there are ways to deal with it, pick someone who's good against NW. Overall though, since not everyone has a running kick starter I think UMK3 is a balanced, good game. I guess some people out there hate being smothered. I can understand the nooby getting frustrated I suppose, but I'm sure in time with practice if he's willing enough he'd get practice and get good enough to compete.

Now, being as how I was a huge MKDC player and didn't just play it one month or a week like some I understand out there. I know from experience both offline and online, that the dash worked well enough. It did it's job and although it wasn't as fast as UMK3's run option, it did the job. Trust me...I've had thousands of matches online alone and hundreds against my friends offline, whenever someone turtled I rushed them via the dash just like I would in UMK3 and MADE the move lol. It worked. Now, what I like about MK9 from what I heard from Total MK is there's also a backdash option(now this will be new to guys like you Phil) but this was great in the 3D MK's, one of the things that was very good. You could attack and immediately backdash by hitting back twice. (MKDC had this option but was stupid the way it was implemented, you had to hit two buttons at the same time instead of hitting back)Now this game will have that back that MK DA, MK D and MKA had. Just saying IMO I think it's a good idea since they're going with dashing in general combined with the old 2D plane mechanic I think it'll work nicely.

Now the throw escapes are another thing but since we got confirmation via one of the vids that they're back, we know the deal with that. I know you're not a fan of them but I just wanted either blockable throws or throw escapable ones. I think to some players who played UMK3, and hated attacking someone and them blocking/crouching the whole time just taking chip damage they may like this but personally, in MKDC I have to say throwing wasn't nearly as used as it is in UMK3 or even the 3D Mk's(being as how you couldn't block/escape them til MKA via the parry)

Oh, on the Baseball bit you might hate me now lol because I'm actually a huge Yankee fan(which you might have already knew) so I'm for the other team there lol, now although I'll always also be a Yankee fan I also know their flaws as well as the fans flaws at times...oh I could go into a rant with that lol but yeah...I do feel for the Mets though, the players or most of them anyway. I like Wright a lot honestly and now you have this nonsense going on with K-rod....still if you're a Knicks fan like me(although I have to say they're the most painful NY team to watch IMO) lol then you know. Although they should be better this year, but wasn't too fond of them trading lee.

Lastly, again just want to remind you dude that I don't mean this in a mean tone, just counterpoints and perhaps an opposite perspective of some things. I know we disagree about certain things, but we also agree about some things too

You know the summer jam, I didn't even talk about it because I knew prior I had plans a month ago(I actually have back to back block parties these next two weekends coming up) and next weeks is also my friends B-day on Friday so my other pals and myself will surprise him the day after. But don't worry Phil, there's always the future and I'm sure some time we'll hang out some where and you can see what MKF30 is all about in the flesh not only in person but in MK games

 

[THTB]

MKF, I removed all the extra spaces between paragraphs, because it just made the page stretch out ridiculously.

Speaking of dash, one of the merits of a backdash is also another spacing option. Combined with frame traps, you can force whiffs and punish accordingly. If implemented properly (aka no invincibility on it), it can prove to be a good mechanic. MK9 doesn't look to be anywhere close to traditional 2D. It looks like it's a 3D game w/o the sidestep...at least the impressions of the attacks certainly come off that way.

 

[9.95]

Pete, not to worry, I took no offense whatsoever to anything you said...

Regarding Boon bashing... He is making a 2d game... and the 2d community has been clamboring for years for a new 2d game...in particular the UMK3 crowd asking for one based off the UMK3 engine...but regardless, he said he wanted to make the game for the fans, to listen to his fans. I have yet to see him on any of these forums... MKE, CMK, UMK...TRMK...etc... not one time have I seen any interactions with "the fans". Combine that with 10 years of garbage and you get what I call just a tad bit of resentfulness. I'm not asking him to come on here and be like "9.95, what do YOU want to see in MK9"... but think about it...Seth Killian is a regular poster on SRK and Capcom Unity... this man is integral in helping make SF4 and make sure the game is what the fans want. THIS is how you do fan service... NOT the way Boon does it. So yeah...after making ourselves available at his beck and call, and the community virtually begging him to interact with us...and after years of being ignored...and disappointed...yes, a little negative criticism(aka bashing) is ok...and hopefully it gets his attention.

Regarding patches, Scheisse said it best when he said that patches are inevitable but that the game needs to be as close to perfect as possible before release. They can't release something like MKD and MKA...or even MKDC and expect that the patches will remedy something that, in terms of a competitive community, the damage will be already done and likely won't be accepted into the competitive fold, even after a patch. My point is, in SSF4, they had to patch a Fei Long infinite on one(maybe it was 2) character...that was the only real thing wrong... and that goes to show how much time, care, and effort goes into their products so that they are accepted as competitive immediately. Netherrealm/Midway has at least a 10 year history of releasing poor games, unfinished games, untested games, and non-competitive games. In my eyes, this means they just simply don't care. If the game is so bad that it needs multiple patches, then that's not a good thing. It needs to be close to perfect the day it's on the shelf, and we, as consumers should demand that, and not let them use a patch as a crutch or an excuse for creating a poor game or releasing an unfinished game.

 

[MKF30]

MKF, I removed all the extra spaces between paragraphs, because it just made the page stretch out ridiculously.

Speaking of dash, one of the merits of a backdash is also another spacing option. Combined with frame traps, you can force whiffs and punish accordingly. If implemented properly (aka no invincibility on it), it can prove to be a good mechanic. MK9 doesn't look to be anywhere close to traditional 2D. It looks like it's a 3D game w/o the sidestep...at least the impressions of the attacks certainly come off that way.

No problem, thanks lol. I was trying to space it out as best I could but realized afterwards(holy moly, this is a larger post then I thought lol)
Yeah, I hear ya. It looks like a newer "style" of 2D MK wise but nothing like the older MK's we all know(like you said, they're implementing some 3D mechanics but it could work well if done right)

I definitely LOVE the backdashing options as like you said perfectly, it'll be used to bait moves and then counter attack(I did this ALL the time with characters like Fujin in MKA and Ermac in MK D and MKA via his TKS) it worked like a gem.

 

[MKF30]

Pete, not to worry, I took no offense whatsoever to anything you said...

Regarding Boon bashing... He is making a 2d game... and the 2d community has been clamboring for years for a new 2d game...in particular the UMK3 crowd asking for one based off the UMK3 engine...but regardless, he said he wanted to make the game for the fans, to listen to his fans. I have yet to see him on any of these forums... MKE, CMK, UMK...TRMK...etc... not one time have I seen any interactions with "the fans". Combine that with 10 years of garbage and you get what I call just a tad bit of resentfulness. I'm not asking him to come on here and be like "9.95, what do YOU want to see in MK9"... but think about it...Seth Killian is a regular poster on SRK and Capcom Unity... this man is integral in helping make SF4 and make sure the game is what the fans want. THIS is how you do fan service... NOT the way Boon does it. So yeah...after making ourselves available at his beck and call, and the community virtually begging him to interact with us...and after years of being ignored...and disappointed...yes, a little negative criticism(aka bashing) is ok...and hopefully it gets his attention.

Regarding patches, Scheisse said it best when he said that patches are inevitable but that the game needs to be as close to perfect as possible before release. They can't release something like MKD and MKA...or even MKDC and expect that the patches will remedy something that, in terms of a competitive community, the damage will be already done and likely won't be accepted into the competitive fold, even after a patch. My point is, in SSF4, they had to patch a Fei Long infinite on one(maybe it was 2) character...that was the only real thing wrong... and that goes to show how much time, care, and effort goes into their products so that they are accepted as competitive immediately. Netherrealm/Midway has at least a 10 year history of releasing poor games, unfinished games, untested games, and non-competitive games. In my eyes, this means they just simply don't care. If the game is so bad that it needs multiple patches, then that's not a good thing. It needs to be close to perfect the day it's on the shelf, and we, as consumers should demand that, and not let them use a patch as a crutch or an excuse for creating a poor game or releasing an unfinished game.

Cool, cool.

Well, I consider Midway Midway and Netherrealm..Neatherrealm, it's different because Netherrealm you have to remember is backed by WB, Ed even said in a few interviews that WB has been nothing but great to them, giving them extra time which we've already noticed since MK9 originally was due out fall 2010, that's changed now obviously...Midway I blame a lot more at times then the MK team mainly due to the fact that they called the shots(not Boon) overall and said, put out a new MK game every 2 years, period. So in a way I just think the Team did what they could in that time and sadly it wasn't enough. Then when something came up, Midway pretty much said "ehh let's just ignore it the game is selling decent anyway" THERE, I blame Midway, not Boon and company. They even stated they wanted patches but it wasn't up to them...that's the thing, Midway was known for that rep...they're no longer with Midway so that's what I'm saying. Let's see how MK9 turns out dude. Now although I feel you bring up a good point with the Capcom spending time with the game, that's true. It's also no secret that Capcom spent far too much time in between SF3 and SF4...I mean 10 years? Really? lol I'm not bashing the game, the game is good obviously but rather Capcom for making their fans wait so long just for a new SF game...but back to Midway/WB and MK team.

Now, it's a different ballgame entirely. WB is far superior to Midway and probably most of their competition in terms of a name and financial stability....they're just newer in the gaming division(but so far, WB has proved good with games like Lego Batman, Lego I Jones, Batman:AA etc) I think MK9 will be no different and successful but we'll have to wait.

I do believe they care and are trying(I mean trying to please millions of fans that want something different from other fans, no problem right? lol) but again, I think you're only going to get as good a product as time you're given, and tools you're offered....This is why I had a gripe with Midway more then the MK team themselves. If they didn't care I don't think this next MK game would be 2D, much less going back to their roots(like SF even did) I agree I hope it's as close to perfect when it's released but just saying, no game is perfect....especially on release lol. I think MKDC was a test in terms of nearly being 2D and seeing the reception, well they heard us loud and clear and boom! We got a 2D MK again!!

That's how I'm looking at it. I honestly don't expect perfection from anyone, whether it's a movie coming out or a game.

 

[RoGE]

2D wins by default.