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Bottom 5 Character Project

RunwayMafia

Shoot them. Shoot them all.
Bottom 5 will never be accurate.

There are 3 good nightwolf players that go to tournaments that I have heard of. Of those 3, 2 have placed well. Of those 2, 1 has gone into the military.

The one that is left has not had the pleasure to fight 90% of people posting that NW is bottom 5. Until you fight the best person for the character in an offline tournament setting you lack the information to place that character.

Just saying.
As I've stated about Scorpion and Quan, I'll say the same about Nightwolf. I used to think he was trash and a total easy win UNTIL I played competent NW players. Have you ever played a guy named NapalmJr or something? He is a spectacular NW player that I just recently met online....sooo good!
 
Sanatic...your reasoning was the lol. "he gets rushed down to easily"

What kind of reason is that?
Well prove me wrong, I truly want to see a night wolf wins a major. Not trying to troll or anything, but I really like to see when an underdog character beat "high tier" characters. Oh and cancel able D+4 and cross over jump
 

Enenra

Go to hell.
I'll be honest...I used to think Scorpion was trash UNTIL I met a player who put me in that damn vortex and literally dismantled my gay ass! I was dumbfounded and literally couldn't do a damn thing...same thing with Quan...which is why I wouldn't dare put either of those gents in the bottom 5! Scorpion is scary...I hate him, lol! :)
Thank you. Peepz be trippin' puttin my boy in bottom 5. One spear and your screwed... I honestly just don't even understand how one can say he sucks. Online scrubs giving Scorpion a bad name.
 

Derptile

RIP Ex Smash
Thank you. Peepz be trippin' puttin my boy in bottom 5. One spear and your screwed... I honestly just don't even understand how one can say he sucks. Online scrubs giving Scorpion a bad name.
I don't think people realize how good 50/50s are until they get blown up.
 
And hear I thought this community new the game by now but apparently not. I can't believe some of the characters that are making the list. Nobody playing a character doesn't mean that character sucks.

My bottom 5:

NPO: Jade, Stryker, Sheeva, Scorpion, Nightwolf


Why don't we just make a tier list and not delete it instead of doing this kind of stuff?
scorpion? lol, he is nowhere near that, give him a small buff and hes jumping right into the top tiers, seriously you dont know what this guy is made of.
 
Who said Rain is bottom five, and are they attending EVO?
If you are, see you there. Scorpion can take a rest for a few matches.
And whoever put Scorpion in bottom 5, please pm me an explanation or something because right now I think you're basing that off the online scrubs with less than 10 games. Get 'em Sage, Noob bottom 5 my arse.

I may sound salty, but there are FAR worse characters than these 3. Noob is mid-low I agree, but Scorpion is a truck and I just picked him up 4 or 5 days ago. PL has him as top 3. Rain... I just don't even comprehend.
rains pressure is very matchup dependend, the dash nerf was pretty bad for him.
 
Thank you. Peepz be trippin' puttin my boy in bottom 5. One spear and your screwed... I honestly just don't even understand how one can say he sucks. Online scrubs giving Scorpion a bad name.
scorpion can combo off of the craziest things, that is one of the things that also make him good.
 

-Deadman-

Getting better with age
For those Sindel players getting salty because atm we feel she's bottom 5, please link a youtube vid or something to show us otherwise. I WANT to be wrong. Every Sindel I have ever come across online did nothing but zone.
Locally, we have no Sindel players so naturally I feel she's low tier. Please prove me/us wrong.
 
I believe sub zero is utter trash lol, but honestly brady makes this underdog character looks awesome. So I can not place sub bottom 5. I mean if Chris g did not win ceo or because of THTB, I dont even think reptile would be on top 10 or top 12. So a lot of bottom 5 are just not being represent by awesome players.

NPO: Sindel, Jade, Noob Saibot, Stryker, and I have to put night wolf cause he gets rushed down too easily ... I do fear a good night wolf player, but someone has to be #5

P.S 1 word guys: JAX
uhmm, citizinsnips?sabin?
 

Pagan

Noob
Scorpion? Please explain...
I'll be as detailed as possible,

d4 doesn't trap on hit. The only d4 I know of that is +0 on standing hit.

d4 and d1 into Takedown does not jail even on hit. You can easily fit a low poke or fast special in before the takedown will hit.

While most characters get somewhere around +2 to +3 on hit with d3, Scorpion's is -7. The opponent recovers so quickly that negative edge will often spit out a punish because the opponent was still inputting their attack when you hit them with it.

2, 21, 1, 11 are all +0 on hit and on block and while 111 is +7 on hit the knockback takes away a lot of the advantage allowing the opponent to slip out of pressure with a low poke or armored attack. I could have sworn many patches ago this was a safe jump. The only way a Scorpion player can prevent you from escaping 111 pressure is by slipping a d1 or a spear in occasionally or ending with Takedown. Throwing the spear in is of course high risk/reward so similar to his vortex. If the opponent doesn't jump the d1 will end the pressure unless you play it risky and try to trap them with a spear as previously mentioned. And while the new takedown helped Scorpion A LOT regardless of if it hits or not it ends his offense and he has to get in again which is the whole problem.

Most people don't realize they can just jump/poke out of 111 pressure on hit or block because other characters who have a similar target combo jail on hit like Ermac and Johnny Cage.

His E. teleport is advantaged on block but can be punished by full combo simply by anti-airing him. Even his X ray can be punished this way because Scorpion loses armor when he reappears. Both are slow enough that seasoned players can punish on reaction.

Spear and E. Spear whiff on crouch blocking opponents and is full combo punishable at full screen.

So what this all amounts to is there isn't really anything safe with Scorpion. He has good damage and mixups but nothing safe to fall back on except 334 (which has a gap that can be armored through). His whole game is just rolling dice asside from a few safe mixups.

My suggestion for playing against him: When you are moving in on Scorpion, don't jump over demon fire because it's only 7% damage. If you instead avoid it by dash blocking you can often make it whiff and Demon Fire is very low reward/very high risk. That and his spear is basically his only way to keep you from beating him in the face since his low pokes don't give him enough advantage to start a hit confirm. If he lands his normal teleport guess high/low and block the first hit then try to armor/poke the 2nd or 3rd in order to force the Scorpion player to take a risk. As long as you consistently block the first hit and block high on the 2nd/3rd he can't hit confirm into spear.

What I think Scorpion does have going for him is 334, his damage, vortex and his instant air teleport but considering that d3 and d4 are so fundamental to just about any other characters game it hurts him a lot that he doesn't have a good version of either. But if these two things were fixed and 111 got a safe jump I would say he would be mid-high on the tier list at the very least.

NOTE: I don't think the bottom tier in this game is complete garbage except maybe Jade (haven't played any good Jades yet but might be a reason for that). I just don't think you will see them win in a large tournament which is basically the whole point of a tier list or what determines a good character. The more risks you have to take, the lower your chances are of getting to finals. Safe and dependable tools are always better than high risk/reward where attrition is involved. A Scorpion player can easily win with a few random choices but the same can be said for losing in that situation. A good player can use his tools effectively, ala Slips, but he's been playing competitively in the FGC for years with a lot of success.
 
I'll be as detailed as possible,

d4 doesn't trap on hit. The only d4 I know of that is +0 on standing hit.

d4 and d1 into Takedown does not jail even on hit. You can easily fit a low poke or fast special in before the takedown will hit.

While most characters get somewhere around +2 to +3 on hit with d3, Scorpion's is -7. The opponent recovers so quickly that negative edge will often spit out a punish because the the opponent was still inputting their attack when you hit them with it.

2, 21, 1, 11 are all +0 on hit and on block and while 111 is +7 on hit the knockback takes away a lot of the advantage allowing the opponent to slip out of pressure with a low poke or armored attack. I could have sworn many patches ago this was a safe jump. The only way a Scorpion player can prevent you from escaping 111 pressure is by slipping a d1 or a spear in occasionally or ending with Takedown. Throwing the spear in is of course high risk/reward so similar to his vortex. If the opponent doesn't jump the d1 will end the pressure unless you play it risky and try to trap them with a spear as previously mentioned. And while the new takedown helped Scorpion A LOT regardless of if it hits or not it ends his offense and he has to get in again which is the whole problem.

Most people don't realize they can just jump/poke out of 111 pressure on hit or block because other characters who have a similar target combo jail on hit like Ermac and Johnny Cage.

His E. teleport is advantaged on block but can be punished by full combo simply by anti-airing him. Even his X ray can be punished this way because Scorpion loses armor when he reappears. Both are slow enough that seasoned players can punish on reaction.

Spear and E. Spear whiff on crouch blocking opponents and is full combo punishable at full screen.

So what this all amounts to is there isn't really anything safe with Scorpion. He has good damage and mixups but nothing safe to fall back on except 334 (which has a gap that can be armored through). His whole game is just rolling dice asside from a few safe mixups.

My suggestion for playing against him: When you are moving in on Scorpion, don't jump over demon fire because it's only 7% damage. If you instead avoid it by dash blocking you can often make it whiff and Demon Fire is very low reward/very high risk. That and his spear is basically his only way to keep you from beating him in the face since his low pokes don't give him enough advantage to start a hit confirm. If he lands his normal teleport guess high/low and block the first hit then try to armor/poke the 2nd or 3rd in order to force the Scorpion player to take a risk. As long as you consistently block the first hit and block high on the 2nd/3rd he can't hit confirm into spear.

What I think Scorpion does have going for him is 334, his damage, vortex and his instant air teleport but considering that d3 and d4 are so fundamental to just about any other characters game it hurts him a lot that he doesn't have a good version of either. But if these two things were fixed and 111 got a safe jump I would say he would be mid-high on the tier list at the very least.

NOTE: I don't think the bottom tier in this game is complete garbage except maybe Jade (haven't played any good Jades yet but might be a reason for that). I just don't think you will see them win in a large tournament which is basically the whole point of a tier list or what determines a good character. The more risks you have to take, the lower your chances are of getting to finals. Safe and dependable tools are always better than high risk/reward where attrition is involved. A Scorpion player can easily win with a few random choices but the same can be said for losing in that situation. A good player can use his tools effectively, ala Slips, but he's been playing competitively in the FGC for years with a lot of success.
all these weaknesses you just described are true. but scorpion shouldnt be played the way in which he needs to rely on these things. he is supposed to turtle. hellfire has its risks, but good scorpions will know when to do them, just like teleports.

scorpion players need to make crazy reads, you occassionaly WILL have to guess when to do a random spear or hellfire. and its crazy how high the succes rate of a random spear can be
 

GGA Wafflez

the kid
5. Cyber Sub-Zero (I don't understand how people become so masterful with him, but many many props to you.)
4. Baraka (He can KILL you in the corner, but he's out-sped by most of the cast.)
3. Sindel (Teleport attacks and proper spacing/Fireball dodging, and she's cooked.)
2. Sheeva (Her hitbox is bigger than Johnny Cage's ego, also suffers from Slow-Itis.)
1. Jade (Too many bad matchups for her not to be #1.)


No way in Bananaphone Hell Stryker and Kano are bottom anything in this game, IMO.
sheeva's low starter has decent range, and almost anything she starts, ends in 33% or above. specials aren't bad either imo

the best, worst character if anything. her speed is probably what screws her the most.
 

CJKRattlehead

Two men enter, one man leaves!
Pagan

Those are all good points but IMO 11 is one of the best block strings in the game, mainly because you can stop at any point in the string to continue pressure.

Also EX spear does hit crouching opponents and D4 into EX spear jails so his D4 isn't totally useless, more as a spacing tool because of the range he is at on recovery.

Scorpion has the second best D1 in my opinion, I feel this makes up for his other pokes being so terrible. Ex tele being punishable applies for every tele in the game (except Cyblax) so I don't consider that a bad thing.

His IA teleport is so awesome that I believe that move alone puts him up past mid tier, (Takes so long to get down but totally worth it, I'm at about 6 or 7/10 ATM but I'm working on it.)

Scorpion is one of the only characters that can full combo punish into more pressure or a mix-up with amazing rewards.

Also 334 being his only safe string to fall back on? 2,1+2, F3, F4,3, 111, 11, 1... I may be missing something with this statement.
 

Pagan

Noob
all these weaknesses you just described are true. but scorpion shouldnt be played the way in which he needs to rely on these things. he is supposed to turtle. hellfire has its risks, but good scorpions will know when to do them, just like teleports.

scorpion players need to make crazy reads, you occassionaly WILL have to guess when to do a random spear or hellfire. and its crazy how high the succes rate of a random spear can be
See, I agree with everything you say here which is exactly why I consider him to be one of the worst characters. There are other characters far better at turtling and who are rewarded far more for reading the opponent all at minimal-to-no risk. When Scorpion is being zoned out by a character with fast projectiles he is obligated to move in and that's when the flaws I mentioned start to show. Fast recovery projectiles dominate MK9's meta game.

Now if we are talking about online in a KOTH server, yeah Scorpion's a beast.
 

Pagan

Noob
Pagan

Those are all good points but IMO 11 is one of the best block strings in the game, mainly because you can stop at any point in the string to continue pressure.
I'm glad you approve =)

Bare with me here but I want to politely challenge that. What about Kabal's f32? JC's f33? Sub's 21? Liu Kang's f12? Jax f413? Kano's b121? Ermac's 312? The problem is while you can stop abruptly and start over, if the opponent guesses you are going to stop on 1 and you do 11 and stop he gets hit by the second 1 and then jumps out of your pressure because of the lack of frame advantage. When JC or Ermac or anyone else uses this strategy they get a few + frames advantage so the opponent is obligated to keep blocking. You can toss d1's in like Check did to catch them with an anti-air combo but if they don't jump it still ends the loop. Chris G had probably never played against a good Scorpion before and didn't know Check was at -13 after each d1 in that pressure string.

Also EX spear does hit crouching opponents and D4 into EX spear jails so his D4 isn't totally useless, more as a spacing tool because of the range he is at on recovery.
It hits SOME characters crouching and D4 EX spear will whiff on a crouching opponent. You can trap with that indeed i just think it gos with what I was saying earlier about risk/reward versus dependable tools. The knockback on d4 is useful for spacing at least I certainly agree with that.

His IA teleport is so awesome that I believe that move alone puts him up past mid tier, (Takes so long to get down but totally worth it, I'm at about 6 or 7/10 ATM but I'm working on it.
iaT is def a baddass move. I consider that to be some of his Strengths but who said NW or Sheeva had bad damage output. Like I said I don't think any character in this game is a 0/10 except maybe Jade but I don't have enough experience there to be sure.

Also 334 being his only safe string to fall back on? 2,1+2, F3, F4,3, 111, 11, 1... I may be missing something with this statement.
What I meant is not just on block but in general as far as an offensive tool. 334 hits low enough that it will interrupt Mileena's d4 and is 0 on block so you can d1 at the end of it practically for free. The problem with 2,1+2 and his front punch is that the first hits will all miss an opponent whos low to the ground. F3 has a 26 frame execution which is like bullet time. F4takedown is actually pretty good but still a bit slow for footsies so maybe after your opponent starts blocking. After a safe jump though 21+2 is fine but be mindful there is a gap between the two hits.

Look at the bright side, this isn't SF3iii where half the cast wasn't even worth looking at because the top 5 were so god like. The fact so many characters even from the bottom rung can compete is rep worthy to NRS. All Scorpion needs is a few extra stun frames and he would be solid.