TakeAChance
TYM White Knight
Good evening folks of TYM,
I have been involved in numerous discussions in the Throw discussion thread created by @karaokelove and during these discussions have taken to the lab to really test out throw properties in MK11 and let me tell you...this is knowledge everyone need to know from the top to bottom. Perhaps it IS known but to my knowledge it is not public.
Ladies and gentleman, MK11 throws are considered specials and will eat active startup frames of normals.
Why is this huge?
Well, I want you to think about reversal throws for a minute. These are 10f options that you can buffer at the end of any blocking string (it will only come out if it's staggered or there is a gap) and it will beat any 10f or higher move, crush mistimed d1's that will whiff if they are properly timed (in most cases), same with d3's and also eat D4's.
Throws in MK11 have been designed to swallow hurt boxes if they come in contact with a throws massive hit box. So, this creates really strange situations like seen here, where Kano can throw Noob saibot out of a D3 from China:
Lets look at a character like Cassie. Someone who is arguably the best character in the game. Her best tool is probably her F4 and the staggers that come along with it. Lets talk about a naked F4 for a second. This is a 0 on block move that many in the community thinks is far too OP.
Well, lets see what Cassie's options are if you start abusing reversal throw:
As shown in this video....
A Cassie CANNOT do these options on block after a F4 is blocked: D1 (whiff/gets thrown if late), D3(whiff/Gets thrown if late), D4 (throw beats it), , F2 (Throw eats it's startup frames), B2 (throw eats it's startup frames)....you get the idea.
A frame perfect (1 frame) F4 will beat the reversal throw since it is a 9f startup 10f active move. This is a 1f window of opportunity for your opponent.
The only way a player can beat a reversal throw at all is to neutral crouch and bait it, jumps at you, or just stand there and do nothing to make your reversal throw whiff then punish you.
The amazing thing about this is...when a Cassie player does nothing...the throw will whiff every time.
This happens because NRS programmed throws in MK11 to be able to punish an opponents hurtbox no matter the range....
With this knowledge, characters that deal poorly with stagger pressure like Skarlet, Shao Khan etc, all have a UNIVERSAL option to beat rushdown heavy characters. I don't know why they designed it this way, but it's pretty clear that throw advantage is a strong tool and should be abused at the highest level. Reversal throws can actually punish tight frame play against a lot of the oppressive rush down characters right now forcing them to stop using their pressure frames.
The scenario above was with a character that can create a 0 on block situation...I want you to think about what this can do to characters that rely on slightly negative cancels to do anything...like Jade, Kabal, Jacqui etc....The implications of this go as far as you want to lab them.
Here is what happens when Kabal tries to stagger F22 (-3) against a reversal throw with a 7F D1 (-11) or a F4 (-13) against a reversal throw.
I look forward to seeing how this helps shape the MK11 meta.
- TakeAChance
@STORMS @Juggs @CrimsonShadow
I have been involved in numerous discussions in the Throw discussion thread created by @karaokelove and during these discussions have taken to the lab to really test out throw properties in MK11 and let me tell you...this is knowledge everyone need to know from the top to bottom. Perhaps it IS known but to my knowledge it is not public.
Ladies and gentleman, MK11 throws are considered specials and will eat active startup frames of normals.
Why is this huge?
Well, I want you to think about reversal throws for a minute. These are 10f options that you can buffer at the end of any blocking string (it will only come out if it's staggered or there is a gap) and it will beat any 10f or higher move, crush mistimed d1's that will whiff if they are properly timed (in most cases), same with d3's and also eat D4's.
Throws in MK11 have been designed to swallow hurt boxes if they come in contact with a throws massive hit box. So, this creates really strange situations like seen here, where Kano can throw Noob saibot out of a D3 from China:
Lets look at a character like Cassie. Someone who is arguably the best character in the game. Her best tool is probably her F4 and the staggers that come along with it. Lets talk about a naked F4 for a second. This is a 0 on block move that many in the community thinks is far too OP.
Well, lets see what Cassie's options are if you start abusing reversal throw:
As shown in this video....
A Cassie CANNOT do these options on block after a F4 is blocked: D1 (whiff/gets thrown if late), D3(whiff/Gets thrown if late), D4 (throw beats it), , F2 (Throw eats it's startup frames), B2 (throw eats it's startup frames)....you get the idea.
A frame perfect (1 frame) F4 will beat the reversal throw since it is a 9f startup 10f active move. This is a 1f window of opportunity for your opponent.
The only way a player can beat a reversal throw at all is to neutral crouch and bait it, jumps at you, or just stand there and do nothing to make your reversal throw whiff then punish you.
The amazing thing about this is...when a Cassie player does nothing...the throw will whiff every time.
This happens because NRS programmed throws in MK11 to be able to punish an opponents hurtbox no matter the range....
With this knowledge, characters that deal poorly with stagger pressure like Skarlet, Shao Khan etc, all have a UNIVERSAL option to beat rushdown heavy characters. I don't know why they designed it this way, but it's pretty clear that throw advantage is a strong tool and should be abused at the highest level. Reversal throws can actually punish tight frame play against a lot of the oppressive rush down characters right now forcing them to stop using their pressure frames.
The scenario above was with a character that can create a 0 on block situation...I want you to think about what this can do to characters that rely on slightly negative cancels to do anything...like Jade, Kabal, Jacqui etc....The implications of this go as far as you want to lab them.
Here is what happens when Kabal tries to stagger F22 (-3) against a reversal throw with a 7F D1 (-11) or a F4 (-13) against a reversal throw.
I look forward to seeing how this helps shape the MK11 meta.
- TakeAChance
@STORMS @Juggs @CrimsonShadow
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