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MK11 Reversal Throw defensive options.

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TakeAChance

TYM White Knight
Good evening folks of TYM,

I have been involved in numerous discussions in the Throw discussion thread created by @karaokelove and during these discussions have taken to the lab to really test out throw properties in MK11 and let me tell you...this is knowledge everyone need to know from the top to bottom. Perhaps it IS known but to my knowledge it is not public.

Ladies and gentleman, MK11 throws are considered specials and will eat active startup frames of normals.

Why is this huge?

Well, I want you to think about reversal throws for a minute. These are 10f options that you can buffer at the end of any blocking string (it will only come out if it's staggered or there is a gap) and it will beat any 10f or higher move, crush mistimed d1's that will whiff if they are properly timed (in most cases), same with d3's and also eat D4's.

Throws in MK11 have been designed to swallow hurt boxes if they come in contact with a throws massive hit box. So, this creates really strange situations like seen here, where Kano can throw Noob saibot out of a D3 from China:





Lets look at a character like Cassie. Someone who is arguably the best character in the game. Her best tool is probably her F4 and the staggers that come along with it. Lets talk about a naked F4 for a second. This is a 0 on block move that many in the community thinks is far too OP.

Well, lets see what Cassie's options are if you start abusing reversal throw:

As shown in this video....




A Cassie CANNOT do these options on block after a F4 is blocked: D1 (whiff/gets thrown if late), D3(whiff/Gets thrown if late), D4 (throw beats it), , F2 (Throw eats it's startup frames), B2 (throw eats it's startup frames)....you get the idea.

A frame perfect (1 frame) F4 will beat the reversal throw since it is a 9f startup 10f active move. This is a 1f window of opportunity for your opponent.

The only way a player can beat a reversal throw at all is to neutral crouch and bait it, jumps at you, or just stand there and do nothing to make your reversal throw whiff then punish you.

The amazing thing about this is...when a Cassie player does nothing...the throw will whiff every time.


This happens because NRS programmed throws in MK11 to be able to punish an opponents hurtbox no matter the range....

With this knowledge, characters that deal poorly with stagger pressure like Skarlet, Shao Khan etc, all have a UNIVERSAL option to beat rushdown heavy characters. I don't know why they designed it this way, but it's pretty clear that throw advantage is a strong tool and should be abused at the highest level. Reversal throws can actually punish tight frame play against a lot of the oppressive rush down characters right now forcing them to stop using their pressure frames.

The scenario above was with a character that can create a 0 on block situation...I want you to think about what this can do to characters that rely on slightly negative cancels to do anything...like Jade, Kabal, Jacqui etc....The implications of this go as far as you want to lab them.

Here is what happens when Kabal tries to stagger F22 (-3) against a reversal throw with a 7F D1 (-11) or a F4 (-13) against a reversal throw.


I look forward to seeing how this helps shape the MK11 meta.

- TakeAChance

@STORMS @Juggs @CrimsonShadow
 
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xenogorgeous

.... they mostly come at night. Mostly.
damn, this is a fucking stupid bug/glitch indeed .... in fact, hope they fix this in the patch after Evo !
 

TakeAChance

TYM White Knight
Just duck and punish :)

But honestly this is low key fucked
It's absolutely stupid, because a lot of characters can stop your stagger pressure by mashing a reversal throw and the only way around it is to stop using your stagger pressure. Think about the implications of that for a second lol
 

DeftMonk

Noob
I made a post the other day asking when do people throw purely because I noticed this. On top of all the normal situations most people throw I just started hitting throw all the fucking time. It eats so much shit.
 

TakeAChance

TYM White Knight
I made a post the other day asking when do people throw purely because I noticed this. On top of all the normal situations most people throw I just started hitting throw all the fucking time. It eats so much shit.
It gets even dumber on defense tho, because you can option select this on every single blocked portion...the only way it gets blown up is if a string as a true gap.

Like, This creates situations where characters normally get to go ham on your with strike/throw mixups have to eat your damn throw on defense.
 

TakeAChance

TYM White Knight
I want you guys to think about this.

ANYTHING that leaves a character at -3 or worse on a stagger, cannot contest with a reversal throw AT ALL unless they delay their own pressure.
 

Braindead

I want Kronika to step on my face
Chance you're making this a much bigger deal than it is.
This happens because NRS programmed throws in MK11 to be able to punish an opponents hurtbox no matter the range....
I told you this happens with everything not just throws... The game was designed to be like this. It's explicitly explained in the game tutorial for crying out loud.

Every single character has a poke that's 9f or faster so they can already counter stagger pressure that the throws can. This is not ground breaking. I mean throws are a reversal so it might be easier to time if you expect stagger than throwing out a poke but that's it.

The only thing weird about this is the animation lol.
 

TakeAChance

TYM White Knight
I mean good luck mashing throw against cassie in the corner, seems like a high risk low reward battle
Throw is something you can do on reversal. You don't mash it in general. She literally can't hit you with anything after F4 or any other portion of that string after you block it if you just hit reversal throw. You can mash this on every hit on block lol
 

TakeAChance

TYM White Knight
Chance you're making this a much bigger deal than it is.

I told you this happens with everything not just throws... The game was designed to be like this. It's explicitly explained in the game tutorial for crying out loud.

Every single character has a poke that's 9f or faster so they can already counter stagger pressure that the throws can. This is not ground breaking. I mean throws are a reversal so it might be easier to time if you expect stagger than throwing out a poke but that's it.

The only thing weird about this is the animation lol.
It happens with everything not just throws? What do you mean?

Every character has a poke that's 9f or faster yes, but if they are late, if the stagger pushes them outside of their own poke d1 range (like Cassies, Kabal's and many many more) they whiff the throw beats EVERY option they have other than baiting the throw or utilizing a jump. Anything -3 or above gets beaten by reversal throw unless the person on offense literally caters to it.

Kabal can barely stagger if you utilize this. Is this not a big deal?
 

Sanjo

Noob
Okay. It's good that you people finally start labbing. But throws, even on reversal, are 10f, not 9. The reason why it beats Cassie 's 9f f4 is because it is 9f on its 1st active frame. Due to the distance, f4 reaches kano on its 2nd or 3rd active frame. Test it with Cassie 's f2 (0 on block) into f4 : throw will lose every single time if f4 is perfectly timed. Nonetheless, your option is a high risk mid reward that must be used sparringly. If I were the Cassie player, I would f4 and wait for your throw animation for a full punish... which create a mind game. LOL at the "MK11 is not deep"
 

TakeAChance

TYM White Knight
Okay. It's good that you people finally start labbing. But throws, even on reversal, are 10f, not 9. The reason why it beats Cassie 's 9f f4 is because it is 9f on its 1st active frame. Due to the distance, f4 reaches kano on its 2nd or 3rd active frame. Test it with Cassie 's f2 (0 on block) into f4 : throw will lose every single time if f4 is perfectly timed. Nonetheless, your option is a high risk mid reward that must be used sparringly. If I were the Cassie player, I would f4 and wait for your throw animation for a full punish... which create a mind game. LOL at the "MK11 is not deep"
I'm not sure about this. If you are relying on the in game frame data it doesn't shave up the reversal frame on the data. For instance, Black Dragon ball is 10f without a reversal window, and it's 10 frames if it reverses. To my knowledge, all reversal special moves shave off 1 frame of block stun, so a throw should be no different.
 

Wetdoba

All too easy...
I thought this was already common knowledge that throws acted as mids on counter hit scenarios. That is why I never found it that insane that characters like kotal didnt have a 9 frame jacqui mid, because they could always reversal throw to beat out mashers on offense and the throw acted like a universal 10 frame mid if you just want to interrupt someones pressure with something more meaningful than a d1
 

TakeAChance

TYM White Knight
It's not 9f. It's 10.

Startup doesn't include 1st active frame so everything in frame data is startup + 1.

Reversal specials come out on the startup frames alone. Unsure on throws but probably them too.
How could I accurately test this if the frame data doesn't reflect the reversal frame. I always thought that a reversal special took off the 1f of block stun and made them come out 1f quicker than their frame data. Throws count as a true reversal.

Am I mistaken?
 

Sanjo

Noob
I'm not sure about this. If you are relying on the in game frame data it doesn't shave up the reversal frame on the data. For instance, Black Dragon ball is 10f without a reversal window, and it's 10 frames if it reverses. To my knowledge, all reversal special moves shave off 1 frame of block stun, so a throw should be no different.
Just try f2 f4 as I suggested . If you're right, you should be able to succesfully reverse counter throw f4. I already know the answer but try it... in case I messed up.
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
How could I accurately test this if the frame data doesn't reflect the reversal frame. I always thought that a reversal special took off the 1f of block stun and made them come out 1f quicker than their frame data. Throws count as a true reversal.

Am I mistaken?
yes.
 

Wetdoba

All too easy...
It happens with everything not just throws? What do you mean?

Every character has a poke that's 9f or faster yes, but if they are late, if the stagger pushes them outside of their own poke d1 range (like Cassies, Kabal's and many many more) they whiff the throw beats EVERY option they have other than baiting the throw or utilizing a jump. Anything -3 or above gets beaten by reversal throw unless the person on offense literally caters to it.

Kabal can barely stagger if you utilize this. Is this not a big deal?
As stated Kabals B1 is a weapon move so dont worry, B1 is still a safe, confirmable, staggerable, no hurtbox, advancing mid with a krushing blow and built in mix up so you dont have to worry about pressing any other button besides B1 at all times
 
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