MK11 Johnny Cage General Discussion

[thlityoursloat]

Sorta offtopic.
but FUCK d2s KBing highs. Who the fuck thought this was a good idea? D2s KBing throws is genius because throws in this game are aids, but highs? why? what's so special about jab strings and advancing highs? All this does is screw over the low tiers especially since they have the worst mids.

 

[DrFolmer]

I think he means after f344~ex forceballs (provided they didn't whiff) where you're +6 and perfectly spaced so that your f3 just barely reaches. They don't really have any normals that can compete with the range of the now 8 frame f3.

It was for the staggers. It wouldnt change the stagger game very much but it would make our followups on plus frames much more reliable. Between the fact people can back out of plus frames, poke, jab combo start us for attempting utilizing plusframes, and how little we gain from f4 - I wouldnt mind it being mid. The options are still there, and it simply provides us with an opportunity to followup with something hit confirmable. It doesnt feel right that I have to commit to a hard read f4 nutpunch when I spent a bar to be +6. And if they back away and f43 comes out.. well riperoni

 

[Rodney Quillz]

mid f3 would definately change him as people would have to hold ur f3 staggers instead of exploding u with d2

If b3 was faster people wouldn’t be throwing out those d2s like that.

 

[Rodney Quillz]

It's a 14 frame attack though. If you attempt to stagger with it and they go to poke, you're still going to get beat. This happens with me when I play as Shang and do his B1 stagger which is I think, also a 14 frame attack and it's a mid. Easy to poke. The mind game we have, is that you know that people are looking for that big D2. So they neutral duck and wait for that F3 and THEN D2 after it whiffs. They're not always looking for a poke. That's when F4 or B3 comes into play. F3 as a mid would be good though, I can't deny that. Just trying to give you the silver lining.

To be honest since it’s a high I have no idea why it’s 14 frames, if it’s duckable it should be 10-11

 

[Name v.5.0]

To be honest since it’s a high I have no idea why it’s 14 frames, if it’s duckable it should be 10-11

I guess because of it's awesome range??? 11 frames seems fair to me. Not sure what they were thinking.

 

[M.D.]

The biggest problem is fireballs missing on crouch block.

Since they don't have to neutral crouch they will never be surprised by any mid or low or poke while fearing the chip from the fireballs.
They just yolo lowblock all day and spam pokes and d2.

I was playing with a colleague, he played mkx a lot but mk11 not that much.
He was constantly duck dashing the fireballs letting go of block mk9 style and getting clipped by b3s, f4 and d4s.

So I told him dude, why do you release block, don't you know Cage is crap, and showed him the whiffing.

He was like "wtf that's great" so he proceeded to just crouch block his way in and DESTROY ME 100-0.

Thanks NRS.

 

[Cobainevermind87]

It was for the staggers. It wouldnt change the stagger game very much but it would make our followups on plus frames much more reliable. Between the fact people can back out of plus frames, poke, jab combo start us for attempting utilizing plusframes, and how little we gain from f4 - I wouldnt mind it being mid. The options are still there, and it simply provides us with an opportunity to followup with something hit confirmable. It doesnt feel right that I have to commit to a hard read f4 nutpunch when I spent a bar to be +6. And if they back away and f43 comes out.. well riperoni

Yeah I'm with ya now, it does suck that f4 doesn't lead to anything unless you bet it all on f4 nutpunch. f3 gets neuched and KB d2'd. Lol what are we meant to do?

I will say though, the times I've caught opponents disrespecting plus frames with just a simple f4 forceball, they've let me take my turn afterwards even though forceball is only +1 on hit. Surely just due to lack of knowledge, but hey.

 

[Name v.5.0]

Yeah I'm with ya now, it does suck that f4 doesn't lead to anything unless you bet it all on f4 nutpunch. f3 gets neuched and KB d2'd. Lol what are we meant to do?

I will say though, the times I've caught opponents disrespecting plus frames with just a simple f4 forceball, they've let me take my turn afterwards even though forceball is only +1 on hit. Surely just due to lack of knowledge, but hey.

That's just it. There's so much "on paper" talk in here about shit, but no one plays that way. People get hit with force balls, people misjudge their spacing, people poke when they shouldnt and people are going to fuck up throw techs. Cage is fuckin risky, you're going to have to use F3, and maybe you'll get D2'd, or maybe you'll land a combo. D4~NP may get you combo'd or maybe they'll fuck up the punish. Who knows. Just go for it.

 

[thlityoursloat]

That's just it. There's so much "on paper" talk in here about shit, but no one plays that way. People get hit with force balls, people misjudge their spacing, people poke when they shouldnt and people are going to fuck up throw techs. Cage is fuckin risky, you're going to have to use F3, and maybe you'll get D2'd, or maybe you'll land a combo. D4~NP may get you combo'd or maybe they'll fuck up the punish. Who knows. Just go for it.

In that case he doesn't play the game.
I know that I have to play like this... but ask yourself, do the top tiers have to play like this with their oppressive hit confirmable mids?
The more I think about it, the more I realize that giving him KBs and fixing his whiffing issues won't be enough, he's just going to be okay at best and too honest to play this shitfest of a game where highs are criminalized.
Another member here said it best, this is MK11 aka fuck highs the video game. lmao.

 

[Name v.5.0]

In that case he doesn't play the game.
I know that I have to play like this... but ask yourself, do the top tiers have to play like this with their oppressive hit confirmable mids?
The more I think about it, the more I realize that giving him KBs and fixing his whiffing issues won't be enough, he's just going to be okay at best and too honest to play this shitfest of a game where highs are criminalized.
Another member here said it best, this is MK11 aka fuck highs the video game. lmao.

They most certainly don't have to play this way. That's what sucks most about Cage. But, if all highs landed on the opponent crouch blocking, we'd have a whole new pressure game using variations of strings that start with 1 and F2. It would also make brass knuckles more viable. Taking large chunks of chip damage.

Then his KBs...

Change Mime Time KB so that it activates without having to extend, and you can get 45% from 1 bar, 48% for 2, and I'm pretty sure it breaks 50% in the corner, I just havent tested it in so long. That's huge.

He would have a solid zoning game, fantastic up close game, good damage, long range normals, amazing pokes....I think he'd be better than just ok.

Fuck, imagine if they did all that AND made F2 a mid. An 11 frame, forward advancing, hitconfirmable, staggerable, mid. We'd have a very complete character. In my mind, there's no way he wouldnt be top 10.

 

[thlityoursloat]

They most certainly don't have to play this way. That's what sucks most about Cage. But, if all highs landed on the opponent crouch blocking, we'd have a whole new pressure game using variations of strings that start with 1 and F2. It would also make brass knuckles more viable. Taking large chunks of chip damage.

Then his KBs...

Change Mime Time KB so that it activates without having to extend, and you can get 45% from 1 bar, 48% for 2, and I'm pretty sure it breaks 50% in the corner, I just havent tested it in so long. That's huge.

He would have a solid zoning game, fantastic up close game, good damage, long range normals, amazing pokes....I think he'd be better than just ok.

Fuck, imagine if they did all that AND made F2 a mid. An 11 frame, forward advancing, hitconfirmable, staggerable, mid. We'd have a very complete character. In my mind, there's no way he wouldnt be top 10.

We're just going to have to wait and see..
I have a feeling they're not going to address the whiffing issues, and if they do, they're not going to actually work. In the meantime, I've had enough of this game. It's no wonder many top players from previous NRS games like honeybee have fallen off the map, the game is terribly balanced and a lot of characters are just unfun. I've tried playing other characters, it's just miserable, Johnny si the only one I like and he's fucking fundamentally nonfunctional against at least half the cast.

 

[Deleted member 35141]

I cant play this character in kombat league anymore no mixups, whiff fuck all, slow ass pokeable mid, no kbs.
9-2 in master as erron black im done handicapping myself with this fun yet absolute shit character.

Ive never seen a character so poorly designed, worse part is NRS wont fix this shit the response will be as designed.
I also have to laugh at the people saying johnny would be OP if his 13 FRAME was a mid yet 22 characters have faster lows/Mids including the top ten characters in the game.

Look at sub zero he has slow starters why? Because you have to guess and then eat a reset if you guess wrong.

Johnny has slow low/high starters why? Who the fuck knows

 

[DrFolmer]

Just give me some damn brutalities on Shock Jock, why we gotta be bottom tier in the brutality department as well

 

[FoughtDragon01]

This is just something I wanted to get off my chest. Apologies in advance.

Spoiler: Rant. Sorry.

If the balance patch hits and the whiffing issues haven't been properly addressed, it'll be very difficult for me to keep playing. Maybe I'm too stubborn or selfish and could just pick another character, but there isn't another character that I enjoy playing as much as Johnny. I can still make him work in most scenarios, but at this point, I'm tempted to say it's flat out unfair how incomplete he feels compared to a large chunk of the roster.

The climb to Demi was more frustrating than fulfilling purely because of the constant swapping to female characters because my opponent knew that doing so rendered a large portion of my game plan worthless. Bad match ups are one thing. Fixed hitboxes won't make the Jade MU any easier, but losing because my tools literally don't function properly introduces a level of frustration I never thought I'd feel from a game.

I've never been this anxious for a patch before, and I don't know why we have to wait so long for something as crucial as making a character WORK, but if Johnny isn't fixed, I don't know how much more time I'll put into this game.

 

[thlityoursloat]

This is just something I wanted to get off my chest. Apologies in advance.

Spoiler: Rant. Sorry.

If the balance patch hits and the whiffing issues haven't been properly addressed, it'll be very difficult for me to keep playing. Maybe I'm too stubborn or selfish and could just pick another character, but there isn't another character that I enjoy playing as much as Johnny. I can still make him work in most scenarios, but at this point, I'm tempted to say it's flat out unfair how incomplete he feels compared to a large chunk of the roster.

The climb to Demi was more frustrating than fulfilling purely because of the constant swapping to female characters because my opponent knew that doing so rendered a large portion of my game plan worthless. Bad match ups are one thing. Fixed hitboxes won't make the Jade MU any easier, but losing because my tools literally don't function properly introduces a level of frustration I never thought I'd feel from a game.

I've never been this anxious for a patch before, and I don't know why we have to wait so long for something as crucial as making a character WORK, but if Johnny isn't fixed, I don't know how much more time I'll put into this game.

I feel you.
People say the game is indepth.. sure, the mechanics are, but a good chunk of the roster feel anything but indepth. More so than ever, I feel, it boils down to which character you enjoy, unless you're just a major major tier whore.

 

[EntropicByDesign]

I'm almost scared to ask this..

How are you all finding the Shang MU? What's working for you, what's particularly troublesome, etc etc? Just curious. I've been stuck offline almost since Shang dropped due to the ever evolving idiocy of my job, bulldozers that destroy cable infrastructure on accident THREE TIMES, and pesky pesky life in general.. but I'm about to dive back in with my main training partner, and he plays Shang exclusively.. so I have thousands of Shang rounds ahead of me, and I'd like to start this shitshow off with some knowledge.

 

[thlityoursloat]

I'm almost scared to ask this..

How are you all finding the Shang MU? What's working for you, what's particularly troublesome, etc etc? Just curious. I've been stuck offline almost since Shang dropped due to the ever evolving idiocy of my job, bulldozers that destroy cable infrastructure on accident THREE TIMES, and pesky pesky life in general.. but I'm about to dive back in with my main training partner, and he plays Shang exclusively.. so I have thousands of Shang rounds ahead of me, and I'd like to start this shitshow off with some knowledge.

Forceballs whiff on crouch block.
wink wink
No, seriously. They whiff.

 

[DeftMonk]

I am playing on pc while away from us... does force ball whiff on raiden on PS4 too and I just don’t remember? Why? Isn’t he a big body hurtbox?

 

[SwiftEagle]

You mean the BnB? Here you go

I know how to combo off it, I just don't know when to hit RB.

I think the window to amplify changes when it hits as a KB for whatever reason. When you get the KB , amp after the punch. With regular counter amplify when JC is about to throw them.

ok I'll try it more in practice

 

[Edlaw]

@SwiftEagle you can just spam RB though, works everytime for me

 

[Valentin-Cordis]

Anyone else trying to poke back at shang's B3 from muscle memory and just gets hit with the 4 overhead lunge after? It just looks to much like a normal poke to me.
I know that i can interrupt the 4 but then im just afraid of another poke or i get d2 KB'd for just pressing a high button

 

[Snibbor]

Anyone else trying to poke back at shang's B3 from muscle memory and just gets hit with the 4 overhead lunge after? It just looks to much like a normal poke to me.
I know that i can interrupt the 4 but then im just afraid of another poke or i get d2 KB'd for just pressing a high button

I can’t lab it bc I don’t have Shang, but doesnt a d1 interrupt the overhead and let you dash in for a small combo? I poke back all the time out of reflex but hit him out of it anyway

 

[Valentin-Cordis]

I can’t lab it bc I don’t have Shang, but doesnt a d1 interrupt the overhead and let you dash in for a small combo? I poke back all the time out of reflex but hit him out of it anyway

Im just going to buy him and try it could have been cause of online thanks.

 

[Cobainevermind87]

I am playing on pc while away from us... does force ball whiff on raiden on PS4 too and I just don’t remember? Why? Isn’t he a big body hurtbox?

They whiff on Raiden yes, I play on PS4.

Just give me some damn brutalities on Shock Jock, why we gotta be bottom tier in the brutality department as well

It's been said in this thread that for the flipkick brute, you need to land the 3 flipkicks in the winning round. I did some testing last night, and you actually need to land FOUR flipkicks, but it can be throughout the course of the match. Land 3 throughout the match, the 4th one brutes. In my test, I landed 3 in the first round, didn't do any in the second round until I bruted them with it. Definitely more attainable.

Showstopper's throw brute is totally bugged. In the match, you can hit them with ex camera flash, throw them, and it'll combo. However, once the "finish him" screen comes up, it no longer combos and it no longer recognizes the opponent as being stunned by the camera flash, so the throw doesn't brute. Only way it brutes is if the throw itself is the killing blow. If they die during any part of the f344, or to the ex flash, the throw does nothing.

And I'm not even going to get into how impossible it is to hit them with the "mid" sunglasses from max range...

 

[Name v.5.0]

Anyone else trying to poke back at shang's B3 from muscle memory and just gets hit with the 4 overhead lunge after? It just looks to much like a normal poke to me.
I know that i can interrupt the 4 but then im just afraid of another poke or i get d2 KB'd for just pressing a high button

Still happens to me from time to time. I've just been trying really hard to be more patient when Shang pokes. Good Shang players rarely use B3U4 though, so it's easy to lose focus on it.

Don't press a high button. D1 puts him in a juggle state where you can combo his ass.