So many problems with mk 11

[AfroBreezy]

Makes sense this general gameplay complaint is in the scorpion forum. I mean every other complaint related thread is about scorpion so I guess this is just the place for ALL complaints lol

I didn't mean to put it in the scorpion thread. My fault

 

[KeyserSoze]

Fundamentally, the statements "gameplay wise, this game is amazing" and "but when it comes to the mechanics.... Flop " seem logically incoherent to me.

(i.e. You write that the gameplay is "amazing," but then write a bunch of shit that suggests you don't think the gameplay is amazing)

 

[AfroBreezy]

Since you are trying really hard to miss the entire point, I'll go real slow about it.

I'll use Erron's B222 as an example again, even tho there are more characters with tools like that and some are even better.

I already considered that U3 beats everything as you said, even tho it is not true in the slightest.

I'm also considering that forward roll beats the B222, which is true.

B222 can be made safe, it is a launcher on hit and also puts you in a guessing game when blocked, not to mention that it has a true 50/50 after the first hit, to sum it up, it wins against:
U2.
Back roll.
Delayed Wakeup (both long and short).
Wakeup Normals.
Wakeup Specials.
Wakeup Jump.
Just block.

B222 gets punished if you U3 and in some cases if you roll forward.

B222 is ONE OPTION he has, and he gets to keep his turn pressuring or punishing you in 8 of the 10 scenarios. He has many more options, including many that beat both U3 and forward roll, but with one single string he can keep you from doing all of that stuff.

With the definition of oki that you brought, you are clearly ignoring all the guessing game involved in the oki situation. Every time you knock someone down in a situation where they have to guess to successfully reset the neutral you are having your okizeme game applied. Your meatys are also part of your oki. If you sit there and block and they wakeup with an unsafe attack you had your oki and you guessed right, it doesn't stop being part of your oki 1 frame after they leave the ground lol.

With that in mind, you have to plan your oki in order to have options to anticipate and beat 10 different scenarios, which is pretty dumb, considering most characters have to literally do 8 different things to cover all options, which leads to people getting up for free due to you guessing wrong. Erron, on the other hand, can keep you from doing 8 things with a single move, which is also extremely dumb.

What I am trying to say, and you are successfully dodging the point, is that I don't think it is ok for a character to have an oki game so strong to the point where he reduces 10 options to 2 with a single tool, while still being able to do a lot of other things to keep pressure on you. But a character having that doesn't make it ok for everyone to have so many options on wakeup that in most cases makes the aggressor guesses riskier and harder than the defender bc most characters in this game are not Erron Black and do not have tools that dumb.

U can have a game with 1000 wakeup options, with a character that can cover 999 of them with one or two moves, one thing doesn't make the other less messed up lol.

This games' wakeup system is second only to MK9 in terms of how much you have to respect people when they are down, and the fact that some characters still don't need to give two flying fucks about that is unbelievable.

What point am dodging? Oki setups are in every fighting game.

 

[Hor_PeT]

that's bullshit, there is no wakeup jump in this game, certainly there is no wakeup strings, if you are getting hit by a jab when the opponent wakes up or doing letting escape with a jump after they stand that's because you are just too slow to hit players on their wakeup window.

Stop blaming the game for you being slow, or better yet, play ppl with better connections, maybe plug a cable once in a while if you Wi-Fi ping is that high.

third, the breakaway is consistent, you need to make sure you have 2 defensive bars before using it, how many times you have looked at it before trying to mash it away?

Also why is this on a scorpion thread?

Complain = Scorpion thread.

 

[AfroBreezy]

Complain = Scorpion thread.

That was my fault. I didn't mean to put it in the scorpion thread. My apologies

 

[Hor_PeT]

My biggest complaint about this game is the free movement that was introduced in vanilla. It is just bad.

My second huge complaint is in the dumb as hell wakeup game. It gives the player who got knocked down way too many options, and that opens up the layer of wakeup jumps. At the same time, I think about what would this game turn into if it wasn't for the dumb wakeup options. In the current state, you get touched by Geras or Erron and you are guessing for your life in their absurd okizeme, imagine if you didn't have access to all of those options. I think the wakeup game could use some adjustments but I also think the oki should be heavily toned down to force people to actually win the neutral more than once in a match.

What is the free movement which is a problem?
That you can back dash for "free" no stamina? Or the bit faster back walk which allows footsie (MKX back walk/back dash was a joke except few characters - GO GO RUSHDOWN FORWARD).

If you meant that I disagree. Finally there is a chance to play better footsies. More movement better neutral.

 

[Hor_PeT]

Not gonna lie... I wake up neutral jump pretty often. Thanks to the plethora of ways you can wake up in this game my opponent is scared to apply pressure half the time... and when they realize I'm not going to get up attack or forward roll... it's too late

I have met players like you it is pretty annoying (but I respect it is a good tool).
It forced me practicing anti air conversions after meaty attacks at least.

The bastards even neutral jump after Cassie's restand as well and hope whiffing something or not get comboed.

 

[Hor_PeT]

Makes sense this general gameplay complaint is in the scorpion forum. I mean every other complaint related thread is about scorpion so I guess this is just the place for ALL complaints lol

At least Scorpion's can learn a bit fundamental.
Scorpion = no fundamental.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

One thing I don’t get in a lot of these threads I see is the failure to adapt. Like, a fighting game meta doesn’t have to be a certain way.

Everything you listed has a counter. If somebody is jumping on wakeup jab them into a full combo. Throws beat the rolls + wakeup blocking, etc. It should actually be a plus that the WU game is diverse, because it makes you think and react instead of autopiloting, thereby making the game deeper.

But some of you guys are just like “I wanna mash buttons on my opponent always after a knockdown, why can’t I just mash buttons?” I don’t get it.

Making a read on what my opponent is going to do after I knock them down and punishing them for it is one of the more fun parts of the game imo.

 

[Rodney Quillz]

Not gonna lie... I wake up neutral jump pretty often. Thanks to the plethora of ways you can wake up in this game my opponent is scared to apply pressure half the time... and when they realize I'm not going to get up attack or forward roll... it's too late

I cried laughing at this cause it’s so true.

 

[Juggs]

Wakeup jumps have always been a thing. If you don’t time a meaty correctly, the opponent can wakeup jump. The problem is when the threat of wakeup u3 exists, or wakeup roll, sometimes you’re hesitant with your meaty and so they use that slight hesitation to just jump out.

I don’t understand why this is an issue. If you time your meaty’s correctly, they get bopped trying to jump.

 

[M2Dave]

Flop. What 2d fighting game you know allows you to njk on wakeup? I'll wait. The point of a knock down is the offensive player having plus advantage, so why am I being conditioned by the opposing player on wakeup? Because of the game's whack wake up system, the opponent is give more than 3 ways to wake up. Wake up jump forward, wakeup combo string, Wake up njp or njk, etc.

If you watch any high level match, you will notice that players always dance around each other wake up 3's range. At this distance, you can also anti-air and punish forward rolls while pressing the advantage on delayed wake up. If you bait a wake up attack, you have earned guaranteed combos that reset the situation. You are rewarded for maintaining good spacing and making good reads. The design makes sense to me.

The dedication in the game as far as learning is non-existent. You can pick up any character in 5 minutes or less.

I think NRS developed the game with the "easy to play, yet difficult to master" philosophy, which most modern fighting game companies are adhering to in order to attract a wider audience. If your argument is that Mortal Kombat 11 should be more difficult to play, I agree with you.

Down 2s in mk are inhumane. If a down 2 is minus on block, then why is their push block.

I am baffled by this reoccurring complaint about uppercuts. They usually have limited range with well over half a second of whiff recovery frames, making them extremely unsafe. Besides, mashing uppercuts, even at an intermediate level of play, is not prevalent.

 

[Deleted member 35141]

Wakeup game isnt that bad, offensively need to know when to bait, block or grab need to mix it up cant be predictable.

 

[stokedAF]

I love it but I never went online with mkx or mk9 so I can’t really compare. Best MK for me hands down. It’s a shame that a few dumb decisions hinder an overall awesome game for some people.

 

[Ramuans]

In this game meaty can kill you lol

 

[TotteryManx]

maybe you just don't know your wakeup window?

Well, I said in lag, so you got me there. I really don't know the wakeup window in really laggy matches.

 

[MagicMan357]

The only actual issue with the game is a lack of options with most characters (combos and pressure wise)

 

[Circus]

No I'm not allowing them to jump at me

Let me be clear as possible. I can stress this enough on how many times I jump forwarded and the opponent literally wjk. I've talked to numerous mk players about this. Even some of the pro players have agreed with me.

Then stop jumping in at them. If you KNOW they are going to jump as soon as they wake up, do something faster. If dashing up and doing your fastest doesn't work, then the knockdown doesn't have enough Hit Advantage so it won't allow a good followup as they are getting up (developer's decision for that specific move).

Just really try to lab what we are saying man. I know some people are being a little douchey in the comments, but really hit up practice mode and try to recreate the situation with the Record function to see.

Even if the knockdown doesn't have enough Hit Advantage, you could still just bait the jump and anti-air with something (even if it's a Liu Kang fireball, in case that is who you play).

 

[kcd117]

What point am dodging? Oki setups are in every fighting game.

I wasn't talking about u lol I quoted the post.

What is the free movement which is a problem?
That you can back dash for "free" no stamina? Or the bit faster back walk which allows footsie (MKX back walk/back dash was a joke except few characters - GO GO RUSHDOWN FORWARD).

If you meant that I disagree. Finally there is a chance to play better footsies. More movement better neutral.

I meant the fact that you can cancel dashes and back dashes at any given time into whatever you feel like doing. I'm all for good walkspeeds, they encourage good footsies and an enjoyable-to-watch game overall, but the dash cancel movement is not good imo.

 

[Hor_PeT]

I wasn't talking about u lol I quoted the post.

I meant the fact that you can cancel dashes and back dashes at any given time into whatever you feel like doing. I'm all for good walkspeeds, they encourage good footsies and an enjoyable-to-watch game overall, but the dash cancel movement is not good imo.

Well it gives a bit even more mobility yes which work for forward-backward as well.

As there is no actually RUN move in the game like it was in MKX it is essential to be like this as you would be never do a "half" dash range into move e.g. after your D4, etc.

In this game it cost no stamina so you can do it free - which I think is a good idea.
MKX stamina and dash strategy supported offense like hell and did not really helped footsies (who wants footsies with 50/50 lol). Back dash was trash and cost a bar while forward dash was free and covered 3 times more distance...

To me it is more quality play than MKX - but it personal preference.
I respect your opinion too.

 

[kcd117]

Well it gives a bit even more mobility yes which work for forward-backward as well.

As there is no actually RUN move in the game like it was in MKX it is essential to be like this as you would be never do a "half" dash range into move e.g. after your D4, etc.

In this game it cost no stamina so you can do it free - which I think is a good idea.
MKX stamina and dash strategy supported offense like hell and did not really helped footsies (who wants footsies with 50/50 lol). Back dash was trash and cost a bar while forward dash was free and covered 3 times more distance...

To me it is more quality play than MKX - but it personal preference.
I respect your opinion too.

I hated MKX movement, what I meant by "free" is that I think backdashes and dashes should have a recovery, not cost resources.

 

[Under_The_Mayo]

Players need to learn the hit advantage of their knockdowns and what options they have at that distance. If you're attacking on knockdown but they jump out, you didn't have the hit advantage and you should know damn well that you could get blown up.

Seriously the game has been out for 2 months and people are complaining about WAKEUP JUMP KICK??? This js laughable.

@CrimsonShadow you speak the truth

 

[Eddy Wang]

Since you are trying really hard to miss the entire point, I'll go real slow about it.

I'll use Erron's B222 as an example again, even tho there are more characters with tools like that and some are even better.

I already considered that U3 beats everything as you said, even tho it is not true in the slightest.

I'm also considering that forward roll beats the B222, which is true.

B222 can be made safe, it is a launcher on hit and also puts you in a guessing game when blocked, not to mention that it has a true 50/50 after the first hit, to sum it up, it wins against:
U2.
Back roll.
Delayed Wakeup (both long and short).
Wakeup Normals.
Wakeup Specials.
Wakeup Jump.
Just block.

B222 gets punished if you U3 and in some cases if you roll forward.

B222 is ONE OPTION he has, and he gets to keep his turn pressuring or punishing you in 8 of the 10 scenarios. He has many more options, including many that beat both U3 and forward roll, but with one single string he can keep you from doing all of that stuff.

With the definition of oki that you brought, you are clearly ignoring all the guessing game involved in the oki situation. Every time you knock someone down in a situation where they have to guess to successfully reset the neutral you are having your okizeme game applied. Your meatys are also part of your oki. If you sit there and block and they wakeup with an unsafe attack you had your oki and you guessed right, it doesn't stop being part of your oki 1 frame after they leave the ground lol.

With that in mind, you have to plan your oki in order to have options to anticipate and beat 10 different scenarios, which is pretty dumb, considering most characters have to literally do 8 different things to cover all options, which leads to people getting up for free due to you guessing wrong. Erron, on the other hand, can keep you from doing 8 things with a single move, which is also extremely dumb.

What I am trying to say, and you are successfully dodging the point, is that I don't think it is ok for a character to have an oki game so strong to the point where he reduces 10 options to 2 with a single tool, while still being able to do a lot of other things to keep pressure on you. But a character having that doesn't make it ok for everyone to have so many options on wakeup that in most cases makes the aggressor guesses riskier and harder than the defender bc most characters in this game are not Erron Black and do not have tools that dumb.

U can have a game with 1000 wakeup options, with a character that can cover 999 of them with one or two moves, one thing doesn't make the other less messed up lol.

This games' wakeup system is second only to MK9 in terms of how much you have to respect people when they are down, and the fact that some characters still don't need to give two flying fucks about that is unbelievable.

And what exactly its the problem, the fact that he can beat 8 out 10 scenarios with 1 move?
I already told you multiple times, he can't use this string unless he is in range of U3 or Forward roll if he wants to meaty with B222
If you can beat Meaty B222 with roll forward or U3 which is an option every character has, i don't really see a flaw in it.

I'm just here thinking how the the hell will U3 lose to B222 as meaty if U3 is fully invincible on wakeup.

Idk who you play but after an ex erron's slide most of the U3 will whiff and his meaty B2 will clip you anyway.

Do make a video proof about it pls.

 

[LawAbidingCitizen]

There are several arguments being made in this thread all separate from each other:
1. "OP is saying the wakeup system is wake because you can NJK on top if other wakeup options?"
I disagree with this. If your opponent successfully puts you into so much fear when you have advantage to oki and you let them NJK that's your fault.

2. "Some characters can stuff most if not all wakeup options with a single move"

This is actually true. Many characters have single moves that beat out all wakeup options if not almost all. Erron Black, Jax, Kollector, Baraka all have universal tools for example Jax can B2 after backdash and it beats the following in the corner and most midscreen: U3/U2/Rolls/Throws/Delayed WU

Then we have a near Universal OS for wakeup Scorpion and Raid on come to mind almost every character can beat every option but back roll midscreen with it and some beat all. Shaolin has a thread on TYM called "Universal OS" check it out.

To be clear I'm not against anything here but I can understand frustration with certain characters having incredible oki

 

[LawAbidingCitizen]

I'm just here thinking how the the hell will U3 lose to B222 as meaty if U3 is fully invincible on wakeup.

Search: "Universal OS" on TYM the thread was made by Shaolin. Some moves do in fact beat out U3 and all other options and some OS into block when U3 us used allowing punish or more pressure.

I'm on my phone ATM or I'd link it. I think I posted it above. He shows examples with Scorpion and Raiden because they have teleports but it can be used with other specials.