TYM’s Tier List Discussion Thread

[Sazbak]

I don't know if Geras is number 1 or not but I want to add an option for the opponent while getting comboed by Geras
Something like: "Press X to skip cutscene"
So as soon as Geras starts his longass combo you can just press X jump to the end and the 400 damage will be substracted immediately.
I always pull out Tinder when this character hits me with a combo, I mean I might as welll spend that time productively.

 

[STB Sgt Reed]

rofl sonic is by far the best fighting game player ever, but this is why great players don't necessary make good coaches/teachers/analysts.

I mean, it's not far off imo. And I usually don't agree with Sonic on anything. The fact that I've agreed with him twice in this thread is mind blowing to me lol.

But aside from Geras being a bit too low and Dvorah and Kotal probably being a bit too high, what's wrong with it exactly?

 

[Juggs]

Any tier list discussion or lists will be redirected to this thread. Otherwise the forums can/will be flooded with everyone’s tier list. Thanks guys.

 

[Juggs]

Cassie better than Erron?
Erron lower tier than Kabal?
Raiden same tier as Skarlet?
Anyone same tier as D'Vorah?
OUTRAGEOUS
Discuss.

I don’t think it’s too outrageous, tbh.

Cassie is extremely good. She can punish just about every gap that is punishable 100% of the time. Like she can even punish the gap between Scorpion’s reg teleport and amp teleport, that is insane. Good zoner, good damage, decent footsies, etc.

Erron definitely has flaws. Bad defensive options, like bad wakeups and no good anti air.

Raiden is really good. Not sure if he’s on par with Skarlet though. Skarlet is VERY strong.

D’Vorah isn’t as bad as I and everyone originally thought. Still not great, probably will get some frame data buffs into top tier tbh.

 

[SaltShaker]

Since these are all the rage, I created one for fun too (bored as hell at work). These are the relative descriptions.

S-Tier = Exceeds in the games meta in many areas, has tools to handle any and all circumstances, no direct weakness, little to no clear cut losing MUs, presents a counter or direct bad MU to some other high and mid tier characters, dominates some MUs against lower tiers.

A+ Tier = A character that would potentially be S-Tier, but isn't due to either having a couple of counter pick MUs against them, a direct weakness to strategize against, or not exceeding the meta at any moment in the way S-Tier would.

A Tier = High tier. Strong toolset that can perform well in the meta. Can create situations where risk/reward is in their favor more often than not regardless of Character faced. Usually can solo main an A tier, though you will have a couple of hard counters or weakness exploitation to deal with. While strong, they cannot dominate the pace or meta in the majority of MUs the way a top tier can.

B Tier = Capable above average toolsets. Can impose their gameplan, but will likely need a secondary to handle bad MUs or counter picks. May have some dirt to impose, or ways to win a lot of MUs, but clear contrast relative to the above tiers.

C Tier = Below average group. Not "bad" in the sense of terrible, but has to play the game way too honest with their toolsets relative to the dirt other characters impose. Rarely used as a secondary, and must take dedicated mains fighting uphill battles to make them work. A secondary is likely required at higher levels of play.

D Tier = Pretty bad. Rarely will anyone win anything worthwhile with a character in this tier, and when they do a parade is thrown because the struggle was real. Vastly inferior when compared side by side to the higher tier characters. Players must outplay their opponents significantly at a disadvantage ala Kuma defeating DJ in Tekken Grand Finals.



* My personal opinion is that the game would be perfect played how the A and B Tier characters play. All characters should be brought to those groups. *

* B-Tier is the only tier NOT in order *

* COME AT ME BRO *

 

[TheReal-Ex_Matt]

The problem with making a tier list in this game is that match ups play a huge factor for people thinking how good a certain character is. A Geras player would always say that CAssi jacqui and sonya are top tier because Geras as a character struggles against them.

 

[Dreamcatcher]

So... I was just watching f0xy play Kollector on his stream and I just realized that Kollector isn't as bad as people are saying. He might be the best counter-zoning character in the game other than EB. I watched him trade Bolas with Sonya's rings, teleport, into full combo every time. Granted the damage isn't great, but that almost completely takes full screen game out of the equation against him. Am I wrong in assuming this? I have barely played the guy.

 

[AK Harold]

This is cool, but would anyone be diligent enough to start piecing together a match up grid? I think it would be easier to adjust instead of putting a character a whole tier up etc.

Literally just put everyone at a 5 5. Then respective character specialists go through the gauntlet. Would be very fun to watch and informative. And would provide hours of content to watch.

It doesn't have to be the good of match up charts, but just a tym match up chart. If I have some one who streams well I can organize this too. Please let me know if y'all are interested in this fun endeavor.

 

[SaltShaker]

So... I was just watching f0xy play Kollector on his stream and I just realized that Kollector isn't as bad as people are saying. He might be the best counter-zoning character in the game other than EB. I watched him trade Bolas with Sonya's rings, teleport, into full combo every time. Granted the damage isn't great, but that almost completely takes full screen game out of the equation against him. Am I wrong in assuming this? I have barely played the guy.

Dead wrong. Don't let MU unfamiliarity and learning around MUs in general fool you. I don't think he's bottom 2 or all that Jazz, but he's clearly bad in comparison to the actual good or above average characters. D'Vorah is fooling people too because "look what Sonic is doing". Not sure about the Sonya MU specifically, but Cetrion and Skarlet zone him TF out. There aren't many (if any MUs) that a character used will say "oh man I have to face Kollector".

Also, Scorpion is the best counter-zoner.

This is cool, but would anyone be diligent enough to start piecing together a match up grid? I think it would be easier to adjust instead of putting a character a whole tier up etc.

Literally just put everyone at a 5 5. Then respective character specialists go through the gauntlet. Would be very fun to watch and informative. And would provide hours of content to watch.

It doesn't have to be the good of match up charts, but just a tym match up chart. If I have some one who streams well I can organize this too. Please let me know if y'all are interested in this fun endeavor.

I'd be down to do something like this for Cetrion. Would probably be an epic idea actually.

 

[AK Harold]

Yeah I'll gauge interest was thinking of selecting 5v5 round robin to showcase a fair amount of playstyle for any given match ups. Hopefully the tym community is supportive and will participate.

 

[AK Harold]

Also would be great to get to know each other and our respective player strengths band build from it

 

[Dreamcatcher]

Dead wrong. Don't let MU unfamiliarity and learning around MUs in general fool you. I don't think he's bottom 2 or all that Jazz, but he's clearly bad in comparison to the actual good or above average characters. D'Vorah is fooling people too because "look what Sonic is doing". Not sure about the Sonya MU specifically, but Cetrion and Skarlet zone him TF out. There aren't many (if any MUs) that a character used will say "oh man I have to face Kollector".

Also, Scorpion is the best counter-zoner.

All I said was he was better than I thought. After watching that I definitely don't think he's the worst in the game anymore, I would put Kotal, Frost, and D'Vorah below him. And I did forget about Scorpion.

 

[SaltShaker]

All I said was he was better than I thought. After watching that I definitely don't think he's the worst in the game anymore, I would put Kotal, Frost, and D'Vorah below him. And I did forget about Scorpion.

Oh haha if you thought he was that bad then yea I can see why you say that. I never felt he was that bad so was thinking from my perspective. Just harder to play while having lesser tools. Though I don't think he's good the way he's getting pumped up the last couple of days as if he's some sleeper upper tier character.

 

[Matix218]

Right, but S tier basically means that they are arguably way above the average 3-4 tiers which means that they (in theory based on komp variation tools and frame data) they are way above or above enough the rest of the kast. Is Cassie strong? Sure. Better than Scorpion? That deserves a pretty big asterisk **. I'm just pointing out how de-valued the S tier rank has become. Basically S rank is the equivalent of A or A+ if they really wanted to make it a difference. I can really see Sonya, Geras (mostly only due to KB damage) and maybe with a sprinkle of love Erron Black deserves S tier.
Cassie is very solid that's for sure but I'd say Cassie is one of the more honest MUs/Chars to deal with. Her low shot is good for her angle but in the end it's a mid. She has maybe one KB other than her d2 that's accessible. Geras on the other hand has similar KBs (end of string hit KB, punish KB hit etc.) but they're much more accessible. For example why does Geras have a end of string hit KB that's an overhead with less startup frames than Cassie that her end of string KB hits as a high and if they bait it they get a FREE d2 kb? Yet they're in the same tier? That's only KB situations mind you. Not even counting oki, frame data, the fact that Geras' judo chop basically gives a huge middle finger to zoning when done right etc.

But Cassie doesn't exactly favor over chars like Jade & Scorpion and maybe Cetrion (barrier's active frames can stuff her neutral at a pretty fair pace IMO.) and having her above a tier or 2 of those chars just sounds odd.

That's all I have to really say about Cassie. Jacqui kinda follows the same suit. But it's not the first tier list I've seen Cassie so high above the other cast when I think she fairs just about the same. Much less putting her in the same category as chars like Sonya and Geras.

Anyone not saying Scorpion is the highest possible tier (whether that is A+, S, S+ or whatever label) is crazy. And I am saying that as a Scorp main.

 

[AK Harold]

@SaltShaker if you can help find 5 players on ps4 with good connection we can set up something sooner than later.

 

[SaltShaker]

@SaltShaker if you can help find 5 players on ps4 with good connection we can set up something sooner than later.

That shouldn't be too hard to do. Maybe we can start as soon as this weekend? I'll PM you later after work.

 

[M2Dave]

Dead wrong. Don't let MU unfamiliarity and learning around MUs in general fool you. I don't think he's bottom 2 or all that Jazz, but he's clearly bad in comparison to the actual good or above average characters. D'Vorah is fooling people too because "look what Sonic is doing". Not sure about the Sonya MU specifically, but Cetrion and Skarlet zone him TF out. There aren't many (if any MUs) that a character used will say "oh man I have to face Kollector".

I disagree.

Sonic Fox's D'Vorah is performing well against tournament caliber players, including players to whom he has lost. He is not beating up on some unknown players in ranked.

As far as Kollector is concerned, he has the tools to be a mid tier character. Perhaps even better. He has the fastest mid command grab in the game at 10 frames. To give a better perspective, Geras's starts up in 18 frames and Kotal Kahn's starts up in 14 frames. The command grab also provides good positioning and okizeme. Unlike Kotal Kahn and Kano, Kollector has 13 frame mid strings that can be hit-confirmed into EX bola. I know that f+1,2,1 xx EX bola lacks consistency, but experienced Kollector players ought to be aware of their surroundings and finish the combo early with d,b+3. Besides, f+2,2 xx EX bola always connects. Kollector also has access to a safe 10 frame mid string that can be hit-confirmed into d,b+3.

I can keep going (i.e., teleport, okizeme after d,b+3, long range buttons such as 4 and f+3, etc.), but I thought I would save the best for last. Kollector is the only character in the game who does damaging grounded combos that ignore breakaways. A staple combo like f+1,2,1 xx EX bola, j.2, b+4 xx d,b+3 keeps the opponent on the ground entirely and does 30%. As far as I know, no other character has this ability.

I am done ranting. REO made a video on this topic, which I will link below. In my humble opinion, there is always no chance Kollector is "clearly bad".

 

[SaltShaker]

I disagree.

Sonic Fox's D'Vorah is performing well against tournament caliber players, including players to whom he has lost. He is not beating up on some unknown players in ranked.

As far as Kollector is concerned, he has the tools to be a mid tier character. Perhaps even better. He has the fastest mid command grab in the game at 10 frames. To give a better perspective, Geras's starts up in 18 frames and Kotal Kahn's starts up in 14 frames. The command grab also provides good positioning and okizeme. Unlike Kotal Kahn and Kano, Kollector has 13 frame mid strings that can be hit-confirmed into EX bola. I know that f+1,2,1 xx EX bola lacks consistency, but experienced Kollector players ought to be aware of their surroundings and finish the combo early with d,b+3. Besides, f+2,2 xx EX bola always connects. Kollector also has access to a safe 10 frame mid string that can be hit-confirmed into d,b+3.

I can keep going (i.e., teleport, okizeme after d,b+3, long range buttons such as 4 and f+3, etc.), but I thought I would save the best for last. Kollector is the only character in the game who does damaging grounded combos that ignore breakaways. A staple combo like f+1,2,1 xx EX bola, j.2, b+4 xx d,b+3 keeps the opponent on the ground entirely and does 30%. As far as I know, no other character has this ability.

I am done ranting. REO made a video on this topic, which I will link below. In my humble opinion, there is always no chance Kollector is "clearly bad".

This is the first time I've disagreed with you in quite a long time LOL.

We've seen Sonic pull this debacle before. In both Injustice games he was claiming Joker was secret top tier. In Inj1 he even was saying he was "obviously top 10, possibly top 5, the Joker players aren't using him right" or whatnot when the character was ultra trash while he wins tournaments with Batgirl. He played him for a bit (never in tournament) making him looking awesome, then went back to his mains. If I see him show up at CEO with D'Vorah, or even NLBC a couple of times, or use her longer than a month, I might buy in. If it's just a phase, beating good players until they learn the MU and he moves on then I don't see it.

Kollector is tougher for me. I've been vocal that I think he has much more potential than people give/gave credit. Top players releasing tier lists with him at bottom 3 is laughable with the Kotal's of the world floating around. Though now I think it's going too far in the other direction, like people just remembered he is in the game and he can play it lol. I don't think he is powerful relative the cast, but I think he's in a spot where he doesn't need too much added to avoid being top tier.

I'm on my break now so I'm gonna check out REO's vid. Dunno how this video slipped past me as I normally catch all his content.

 

[Mpizz10]

In the OP's post I dont think there is a general consensus on Liu being s tier. Every list I've seen explained by the top guys have him b to a+. I think its definitely a reach to have him the same class as jaqui

 

[SaltShaker]

@M2Dave just watched the Kollector video @REO created twice. I'll admit it opened my eyes a bit and gave me some things I wanna check out. I'm off for a 3 day weekend so I think Ima give him a twirl (hadn't touched him since week 2). On one hand I think someone like Kabal can just out Kollector the Kollector, but on the other hand I think he just may have some legitimate tools if played efficiently throughout a match and might be hard for a few characters to deal with. Gonna check him out a bit and gauge it.

 

[M2Dave]

We've seen Sonic pull this debacle before. In both Injustice games he was claiming Joker was secret top tier. In Inj1 he even was saying he was "obviously top 10, possibly top 5, the Joker players aren't using him right" or whatnot when the character was ultra trash while he wins tournaments with Batgirl. He played him for a bit (never in tournament) making him looking awesome, then went back to his mains. If I see him show up at CEO with D'Vorah, or even NLBC a couple of times, or use her longer than a month, I might buy in. If it's just a phase, beating good players until they learn the MU and he moves on then I don't see it.

The rule of thumb with Sonic Fox is, as I am certain you know by now, you totally ignore most of what he says and strictly focus on what he does. You are right when you state that Sonic Fox is unlikely to use D'Vorah in a major tournament. He is a sponsored player for whom everyone has high expectations to succeed so he must understandably choose the absolute best characters, which D'Vorah is not. She is arguably mid or low mid tier. So is Kollector although he could better in my opinion.

Based on current observations, I would make the claim that Kotal Kahn is the worst character in the game followed by Kano. These two characters, above all others, appear to have severe deficiencies as far as mid attacks are concerned. The most underrated character is Kollector, with whom some players have been experimenting. In fact, King Jr. won our local Mortal Kombat 11 tournament mostly using Kollector and a little bit of Geras. Noob seems to be the most overrated character at the moment. Chris G has dropped Noob for Scorpion. Honey Bee is using more D'Vorah. Waz is exclusively using Jade. Toxin, from what I hear, has been focusing on Kabal and Skarlet.

 

[Dreamcatcher]

I disagree.

Sonic Fox's D'Vorah is performing well against tournament caliber players, including players to whom he has lost. He is not beating up on some unknown players in ranked.

As far as Kollector is concerned, he has the tools to be a mid tier character. Perhaps even better. He has the fastest mid command grab in the game at 10 frames. To give a better perspective, Geras's starts up in 18 frames and Kotal Kahn's starts up in 14 frames. The command grab also provides good positioning and okizeme. Unlike Kotal Kahn and Kano, Kollector has 13 frame mid strings that can be hit-confirmed into EX bola. I know that f+1,2,1 xx EX bola lacks consistency, but experienced Kollector players ought to be aware of their surroundings and finish the combo early with d,b+3. Besides, f+2,2 xx EX bola always connects. Kollector also has access to a safe 10 frame mid string that can be hit-confirmed into d,b+3.

I can keep going (i.e., teleport, okizeme after d,b+3, long range buttons such as 4 and f+3, etc.), but I thought I would save the best for last. Kollector is the only character in the game who does damaging grounded combos that ignore breakaways. A staple combo like f+1,2,1 xx EX bola, j.2, b+4 xx d,b+3 keeps the opponent on the ground entirely and does 30%. As far as I know, no other character has this ability.

I am done ranting. REO made a video on this topic, which I will link below. In my humble opinion, there is always no chance Kollector is "clearly bad".

Yeah I was just saying this the other day, Kollector isn't a beast but he's definitely not the worst in the game by any means. @REO's videos have been on point for this game so far.

 

[M2Dave]

More data to consider for tier lists, I guess.

Character usage for the top 8 qualifiers for the online Mortal Kombat 11 Pro Kompetition. Click here for Smash.

Winners:

• Sonic Fox (Cassie in pools, then Erron Black and Jacqui in top 32)
• Dragon (Cetrion)
• Grr (Geras)
• Kombat (Baraka and Jax)

Losers:

• NinjaKilla (Liu Kang)
• BioHazard (Kano in pools, then Jax in top 32)
• Daddy (Sub Zero)
• Alexander The Great (Cetrion)

 

[SaltShaker]

Sonic Fox's new tier list-

I feel like I'm owed an apology for constantly being told no to Scorpion in the top 5. All of a sudden everyone agrees now.

In all seriousness, I usually don't agree with Sonic's list but I mostly agree here. Would swap Geras and Kabal, and I don't think Kollector is bottom 1, but I mostly agree with the rest. Looks legit.

 

[MuMuGuy]

D’Vorah, Frost, Kano, and Kotal are all objectively worse than Kollector.