TYM’s Tier List Discussion Thread

[Bobby B.]

I'm not sure people posting about Sub-zero's placement on the list understand the context. First, he said Thin Ice was around A-tier if I'm not mistaken. Second, about him placing Sub-Zero DoW in B tier: this is coming from the perspective of someone who can reliably react beforehand to Sub's overhead/low mixup. This removes that variation's strongest tool so obviously he doesn't consider it strong; most people can't react to that mixup or play online where it's almost impossible.

Also, the context for the Raiden placement: it was mainly because of the Raijen variation that has a 4 frame discharge move that charges instantly and that he showed was fast enough to punish Kabal's D1, which is just dumb if properly exploited.

 

[scrubjesus111]

That Raijin thing might be amazing. So tired of d1 poking in this game. Now if only he had his teleport in that variation...

 

[Matix218]

I'm not sure people posting about Sub-zero's placement on the list understand the context. First, he said Thin Ice was around A-tier if I'm not mistaken. Second, about him placing Sub-Zero DoW in B tier: this is coming from the perspective of someone who can reliably react beforehand to Sub's overhead/low mixup. This removes that variation's strongest tool so obviously he doesn't consider it strong; most people can't react to that mixup or play online where it's almost impossible.

Also, the context for the Raiden placement: it was mainly because of the Raijen variation that has a 4 frame discharge move that charges instantly and that he showed was fast enough to punish Kabal's D1, which is just dumb if properly exploited.

Dude, we dont average both variations together to determine tier placement. You base the tier placement on the strongest variation, otherwise Sonic wouldn't have put noob saibot so high. Also, NO ONE will be reliably reacting to that mixup in a real match, sonic included. Lets be serious here.

 

[scrubjesus111]

Dude, we dont average both variations together to determine tier placement. You base the tier placement on the strongest variation, otherwise Sonic wouldn't have put noob saibot so high. Also, NO ONE will be reliably reacting to that mixup in a real match, sonic included. Lets be serious here.

Sonic was saying how he made a Sub player switch because he was reacting to it in a real set

 

[Vastly]

SonicFox’s tier list he made on his stream:

S: Sonya, Geras, Erron Black, Cassie
S-: Scorpion, Jacqui, Kabal, Jax, Skarlet
A+: Baraka, Cetrion, Noob, Jade, Raiden
A: Kung Lao, Kitana, Liu Kang, Shao Kahn, Johnny Cage, Kotal Kahn
A-: Frost
B: Sub-Zero, Kollector
C: Kano, D’Vorah

He pretty much explained his reasoning for all of them. You’ll just have to watch the VoD, too much to type. He also showed some stuff for certain characters.

A lot of certain downplayers were mad heated in the chat.

I would swap Skarlet and Baraka. I would put Sub in S- tier. I think Frost is A tier rather than A-. I would move kollector up to A tier as well and move Kotal down to B tier. I would put Kano in A- tier. I would also Put Cassie in S- tier rather than S tier. I agree with the rest though.

 

[Matix218]

Sonic was saying how he made a Sub player switch because he was reacting to it in a real set

That is insane if true. No wonder he always wins. I guess his reactions are just broken tier

 

[Bobby B.]

Dude, we dont average both variations together to determine tier placement. You base the tier placement on the strongest variation, otherwise Sonic wouldn't have put noob saibot so high. Also, NO ONE will be reliably reacting to that mixup in a real match, sonic included. Lets be serious here.

I was doing the exact opposite of averaging the variations. I said based on DoW specifically Sub is considered B tier by Sonic and based on Raijen specifically Raiden is considered A+ tier.

And the reason I mentioned Sonic reacting to Sub's mixup is that both he and DJT confirmed that he was reacting beforehand to the Sub DoW mixup when DJT played him as Sub-zero. They mentioned this at The Summit and Sonic talked about it on stream. Btw, Sonic mentioned that if you can't react to his overhead/low mixup he considers Sub-zero S tier.

 

[santanabar]

Sonic is just being cocky here, of course 99.9% people cant react to that OH most of the time, it's literally the fastest overhead in the game. If that's reactable, then whats the point in all the other overheads with more startup frames?

People get hit by erron f4 (26 frames), jade f2 (28), scorpion b3 (27), jacqui b1 (27) etc etc etc, so yeah sonic, the rest of the humans don't have your reactions.

 

[XxTheGoblinX]

If your choosing who you want to play based of a tier list somethings wrong .

 

[Kanalratte]

Sonic is just being cocky here, of course 99.9% people cant react to that OH most of the time, it's literally the fastest overhead in the game. If that's reactable, then whats the point in all the other overheads with more startup frames?

People get hit by erron f4 (26 frames), jade f2 (28), scorpion b3 (27), jacqui b1 (27) etc etc etc, so yeah sonic, the rest of the humans don't have your reactions.

if you get hit by erron's F4 for example, you mostly didn't expect it. in a situation where you expect a mixup (you being knockdown) you can react to it. so did sonic as he played DJT. For online, i'd say that Sub is still S-Tier.

 

[santanabar]

if you get hit by erron's F4 for example, you mostly didn't expect it. in a situation where you expect a mixup (you being knockdown) you can react to it. so did sonic as he played DJT. For online, i'd say that Sub is still S-Tier.

Didn't expect it? What other thing can erron do mid/full screen besides drop kick and slide? Plus KB requirement is hitting drop kick twice in a row, people absolutely expect it, just sometimes cannot react to it.

Sub zero in OH range he can throw, low string, mid, like literally anything.

 

[Professor Oak]

If your choosing who you want to play based of a tier list somethings wrong .

Not when there is money on the line

 

[M.D.]

LOL putting cage in the same tier as Kabal.

I mean...I can understand upplays to keep the attention away from the broken ass characters so they can win tourneys braindead, but actually saying out loud that cage is in the same tier as kabal, rofl man at least keep it decent and believable.

 

[LawAbidingCitizen]

In regards to sonics tier list

Sonic is straight up lying. Kotal is not A Tier. 80% of his moves wiff and have major hitbox issues.

His 1, 2, D1, F1, F2, B2, B22, F34(on crouch block), Command Grab has 1/2 the hitbox of Normal throw.

Almost every special is death on start or recovery and useless.
All of his combo starters have hitbox issues
His pokes are shit range and hitbox.
His projectile is 29f startup with long recovery.

But Sonic saying you can use two normals only at footsie range and get away with it is absolutely retarded. Characters should not have this much wrong with them and be forced to be one trick ponys! I should be able to utilize all his moves instead if we not forced into a cheesy 50/50 all day long. No character should b a one or two button char.
Fix what isn't functioning to make movelist functional and tone down what us too strong after.
His hitboxes need fixed. I want Kotal to be able to use all of his normals like a complete character.

All I can say is Sonic is high if he thinks Kotal is A tier. Almost like he benefits from the tier list since he don't actually use him.

 

[wsj515]

Twitch

Twitch is the world's leading video platform and community for gamers.

www.twitch.tv

Heres the vod if people want to hear sonic's explanations for each, starts at ~2:03:00

 

[scrubjesus111]

If your choosing who you want to play based of a tier list somethings wrong .

It depends on who you play against imo. My friend is hella good and uses A+ chars himself so I can’t play a char against him that has limited tools or exploitable stuff. So I’ll literally pick who I use against him based on a tier list , understanding what it is that makes the character good

 

[scrubjesus111]

In regards to sonics tier list

Sonic is straight up lying. Kotal is not A Tier. 80% of his moves wiff and have major hitbox issues.

His 1, 2, D1, F1, F2, B2, B22, F34(on crouch block), Command Grab has 1/2 the hitbox of Normal throw.

Almost every special is death on start or recovery and useless.
All of his combo starters have hitbox issues
His pokes are shit range and hitbox.
His projectile is 29f startup with long recovery.

But Sonic saying you can use two normals only at footsie range and get away with it is absolutely (soap bar in my mouth). Characters should not have this much wrong with them and be forced to be one trick ponys! I should be able to utilize all his moves instead if we not forced into a cheesy 50/50 all day long. No character should b a one or two button char.
Fix what isn't functioning to make movelist functional and tone down what us too strong after.
His hitboxes need fixed. I want Kotal to be able to use all of his normals like a complete character.

All I can say is Sonic is high if he thinks Kotal is A tier. Almost like he benefits from the tier list since he don't actually use him.

I 100% agree that no characters should have stuff that isn’t useable. Hope they patch him up

 

[Tony at Home]

FINALLY

A Netherrealm Studios game where Sonya is top tier.

The struggle is over, weary Sonya mains

 

[santanabar]

Watched like 30 min, guess how many times ninjakilla reacted to the overhead... Yeah, 0.

 

[LawAbidingCitizen]

I 100% agree that no characters should have stuff that isn’t useable. Hope they patch him up

Yeah I wasn't sure I worded it right or not. Some characters have moves that are not functioning or working properly. No matter how good they are those buttons/tools should be fixed. Broken hitboxes need fixed reguardless if it's D'Vorah or Geras.
If any character has "game breaking" tools they should be toned down. Any tool that doesn't work or isn't practical needs to be adjusted until it is.

Sonic has a long history of overdramatized descriptions of characters toolsets. I haven't seen a character that he reviews that in his opinion didn't have a "Broke" normal, button, Special, Tool!
He may be arguably the best player currently but he has been way off on early tier lists. I'd like to see Sonic use all the characters exclusively at majors and win if he thinks they are so good. Specifically: Kotal, Shao, Frost, Lao ect. But I bet he won't because he uses the real top characters that give him the best advantage against a large portion of the cast.

 

[scrubjesus111]

Watched like 30 min, guess how many times ninjakilla reacted to the overhead... Yeah, 0.

Tbf sonic said it’s pretty much unreactable online. So sub would be firmly in S tier online... I think unless you are sonicfox sub is S tier lol

 

[Peckapowa]

Cetrion, Jade, Liu Kang, Skarlet, Kabal.

I play jax thanks to not being a fan of sub in this game and cetrion in particular is a pain in the ass. I never said it wasn't doable, it is. But I'm not doing it with dash punch. That's inviting a full combo punish.

I actually feel cassie is the third best at zoning the game and does well vs jacqui.

 

[XxTheGoblinX]

It depends on who you play against imo. My friend is hella good and uses A+ chars himself so I can’t play a char against him that has limited tools or exploitable stuff. So I’ll literally pick who I use against him based on a tier list , understanding what it is that makes the character good

If you and your friend are on the same level then that wouldnt be the case. People will play good with say a B tier character and lose a close game. Switch to a S tier and then completely get blown up because they had too much faith in their tiers and not themselves.
But your right if you understand the ups and downs of a character and have the ability to execute, your much better off.

 

[LawAbidingCitizen]

Tbf sonic said it’s pretty much unreactable online. So sub would be firmly in S tier online... I think unless you are sonicfox sub is S tier lol

I know Sonic says subs F2 OH is reactible but 19f mix isn't reactable at all. On TYM we posted a reaction program that made you press two different buttons on Overhead/Low attacks. You had to press the button after it initiated or it failed, eliminating hard reads or knowing it was comming and the attack was random.
Many pro players took the test and posted thier results. The overwhelming majority got 20-25 frames reaction with 23 frames being the average.
Sonic got 19 frames one time and 20 the second.
He was clearly faster then other top players. Maybe because of practice.
But I fully believe 19f mix isn't reactable for anyone and it's really only possible with reads, just knowing after a specific move it's comming or just guessing. Sonic has always made godlike reads in majors.

Think about it, if Sub Zero Overhead is completely reactable at 19 frames startup then every move in the game is. I think reactable is closer to 22 frames startup.
I tested at 23 frames got one at 20 but I was not able to get that consistently and neither where the top players.

 

[scrubjesus111]

If you and your friend are on the same level then that wouldnt be the case. People will play good with say a B tier character and lose a close game. Switch to a S tier and then completely get blown up because they had too much faith in their tiers and not themselves.
But your right if you understand the ups and downs of a character and have the ability to execute, your much better off.

Yeah but we’re not on the same level tho. He has much better reactions... was top 200 - 50 in different NRS games. I need them S tiers man lmao