TYM’s Tier List Discussion Thread

[John Grizzly]

He claimed full screen spear trade lol. Too bad it runs out before you walk full screen and get your "20% DAMAGE OMG 360NOSCOPE". This was the only part of the list that had me talking at the screen.

Ah yes. The super solid Shao Kahn spear....

 

[Qwark28]

He claimed full screen spear trade lol. Too bad it runs out before you walk full screen and get your "20% DAMAGE OMG 360NOSCOPE". This was the only part of the list that had me talking at the screen.

Shao kahn literally has the 2nd fastest wavedash in the game.

 

[Kroaken]

Shao kahn literally has the 2nd fastest wavedash in the game.

I mean cool but that buff is still on the short end. And I was referring to how he actually showed it by walking across the screen. It was funny.

 

[Qwark28]

I mean cool but that buff is still on the short end. And I was referring to how he actually showed it by walking across the screen. It was funny.

You still get it for free against most chars if you hit them with a fullscreen spear.

 

[Hitoshura]

Sonic's list isn't a tier list, nor are ones being discussed up until this point. It's an assumption of character placements based on ideas and theory with no numerical matchup testing what so ever. We need to stop focusing so much on tiers so early in a games life and actually work as a community to play thousands of games before we have sufficient knowledge of characters in the game, which we will then use to play sets with people who have the same level of skill as us to determine what the matchups for each character looks like and what the tier list will ultimately look like.

I don't care how good you are at a game, one person alone can not make a proper tier list in a months time. Hell, even if there was help it's still too early.

Y'all want a tier list. Play. Play the game, level up and get great with a character, or characters. Establish yourself within the communities of the character(s) you represent. From there we find others who are the same as us, but with another character, set up matches with them, play sets, then rotate with other players of the same character and determine what the matchup data is like. Rinse and repeat for every character in the game, then add up the matchup number totals for each character and place them in ascending order. There is you tier list.

This will take a long time. A legit tier list wont be a thing until a year from now or more. Super street fighter 2 turbo has been out for 30 years and the tier list is still changing.

 

[PetulantWaste]

Hm... not sure I’m buying what Fox is selling on Raiden. Feel like if he bought into his own hype on the character, he’d already be playing him.

He doesn't play any of the other characters in that tier either. He plays S+ or S by his own standards.

 

[portent]

So, I get Fox putting out a tier list, but this close to CB smells like a red herring before the NFL Draft.

He's so smart, and plays so many mind game, in and out of game, so I hope, at least for the moment, that people don't get wrapped up in his list.

Follow me:

So far, EVERY list has SZ high. Like, S or A+ level high. Suddenly, Fox comes and puts SZ in B tier, one up from the bottom. HUH?

So, either Sonic knows something about these characters that nobody knows (which is very possible), OR he's dropping a red herring, making us all think he's gonna take a quarterback in the draft. Now we've all bought into it and we're gonna race to get the quarterbacks and he's free to take any of the top running backs he wants.

Translation:

If Fox can convince even ONE top player to question SZ's viability in a big money tournament and force him to change his mind, it's a win before he even picks up a controller!

 

[Matix218]

He doesn't play any of the other characters in that tier either. He plays S+ or S by his own standards.

Yeah but why would he play A tier when S tier is a thing? His goal is to win tournaments, not be the best player with "x" character. No one has more expectations to not only place high but to literally win every single event so of course he is going to stay in the S tier. I would be shocked to ever see him deviate from what he feels is top tier and the only situation where I think it would ever happen is for a specific matchup/counterpick where he felt that lower tier character was actually the better pick in that specific situation or for some meaningless exhibition match.

 

[Dreamcatcher]

My opinion is his biggest fear is actually someone at the highest level with SZ, so he throws this out there to discourage future labbing or development in the character. Either that or he really thinks SZ sucks. Lol

 

[Juggs]

Sonic's list isn't a tier list, nor are ones being discussed up until this point. It's an assumption of character placements based on ideas and theory with no numerical matchup testing what so ever. We need to stop focusing so much on tiers so early in a games life and actually work as a community to play thousands of games before we have sufficient knowledge of characters in the game, which we will then use to play sets with people who have the same level of skill as us to determine what the matchups for each character looks like and what the tier list will ultimately look like.

I don't care how good you are at a game, one person alone can not make a proper tier list in a months time. Hell, even if there was help it's still too early.

Y'all want a tier list. Play. Play the game, level up and get great with a character, or characters. Establish yourself within the communities of the character(s) you represent. From there we find others who are the same as us, but with another character, set up matches with them, play sets, then rotate with other players of the same character and determine what the matchup data is like. Rinse and repeat for every character in the game, then add up the matchup number totals for each character and place them in ascending order. There is you tier list.

This will take a long time. A legit tier list wont be a thing until a year from now or more. Super street fighter 2 turbo has been out for 30 years and the tier list is still changing.

Match up numbers are just as arbitrary as tier lists. They aren’t based on actual data like they’re supposed to represent. It’s based on hypothetically if 2 players who were playing perfectly with no human error, which character would win out of 10,000 games or something crazy, simplified to which character would win how many games out of 10 games. There’s no reliable way to actually objectively test this, so again, it’s based on a hypothetical. And the result is a consensus of people’s opinions. So, even tier lists based on matchup numbers are just as subjectively based as if they weren’t. There’s just more consensus in MU based tier lists.

 

[Matix218]

My opinion is his biggest fear is actually someone at the highest level with SZ, so he throws this out there to discourage future labbing or development in the character. Either that or he really thinks SZ sucks. Lol

This could actually be a smart strategy on his part if you are right

 

[Hitoshura]

Match up numbers are just as arbitrary as tier lists. They aren’t based on actual data like they’re supposed to represent. It’s based on hypothetically if 2 players who were playing perfectly with no human error, which character would win out of 10,000 games or something crazy, simplified to who would win how many games in a best of out of 10 games. There’s no reliable way to actually objectively test this, so again, it’s based on a hypothetical. And the result is a consensus of people’s opinions. So, even tier lists based on matchup numbers are just as subjectively based as if they weren’t. There’s just more consensus in MU based tier lists.

This is why there needs to be more than 1 person representing a character. Different people may get different results. There needs to be discussion after the matches have taken place in order to establish what is in favor, disfavor, etc.

It's still based on opinion, you're not wrong; however, obtaining your opinion through large number of sets, then discussing them with 2-5 other players who use the same character as you and are of a similar skills level and seeing what their results are, then basing said characters matches and placement is better then just guessing where someone resides amongst a roster of characters based on straight hypothesizing everything about every character, even those you don't play.

 

[Juggs]

This is why there needs to be more than 1 person representing a character. Different people may get different results. There needs to be discussion after the matches have taken place in order to establish what is in favor, disfavor, etc.

It's still based on opinion, you're not wrong; however, obtaining your opinion through large number of sets, then discussing them with 2-5 other players who use the same character as you and are of a similar skills level and seeing what their results are, then basing said characters matches and placement is better then just guessing where someone resides amongst a roster of characters based on straight hypothesizing everything about every character, even those you don't play.

He had a detailed explanation on every placement, to be fair. And he was discussing it with Coach Steve.

I think early tier lists are fine. Because I don’t think tier lists are ever very accurate. Might as well have a fun discussion. It’s not like a tier list effects anything anyway. But people definitely do put too much stock into them, for sure.

 

[DixieFlatline78]

I'm surprised he still ranks Erron Black so high. It feels like people are figuring out the matchup and dealing with him better

 

[Vslayer]

But people definitely do put too much stock into them, for sure.

Yeah, it seems there are two types of players: those who rely on them to figure out who they want to play, and those who play whoever they want to play. I mean, there are definitely good things to tier lists, like discussing where characters are strong and where they are weak, but I do agree that they aren't always accurate to how a character will perform in any MU.

 

[Dreamcatcher]

This could actually be a smart strategy on his part if you are right

Yeah but I don't think he's afraid of anyone. Pretty sure he's a cyborg or something. Lol

 

[Dreamcatcher]

I'm surprised he still ranks Erron Black so high. It feels like people are figuring out the matchup and dealing with him better

This. F4 might not be fully punishable but it seems like above average players are not letting that thing hit them twice in a row anymore. Lol

That and midscreen acid traps require a LOT more mind games to work.

 

[Cashual]

I commented how 3 of 4 combos start high and only b1 is mid. They said shut up because its 9 frames. Feels like forever and the nature of having to commit to 1+3 which quite a few can punish easily.

B1 is so stubby sometimes I feel like people overstate how good it is.

 

[xenogorgeous]

Yeah, it seems there are two types of players: those who rely on them to figure out who they want to play, and those who play whoever they want to play. I mean, there are definitely good things to tier lists, like discussing where characters are strong and where they are weak, but I do agree that they aren't always accurate to how a character will perform in any MU.

yep, my dear , that's why the term "tier whore" was created, to reflect this poor reality, hehe ....

so you have 2 kinds of players, those who will stick with only high tier characters, no matter what, and the other group, who will pick his/her favourite character, or one that he/she discovers fits his/her own personal playstyle, regardless if the character is high or low tier ....

this will never change , even after MK 318 in the next 2 thousands years forward in future, hehe

 

[RYX]

You still get it for free against most chars if you hit them with a fullscreen spear.

Is this assuming you hit a full screen naked spear and no projectile trade? Who's that going to work on?

 

[DixieFlatline78]

This. F4 might not be fully punishable but it seems like above average players are not letting that thing hit them twice in a row anymore. Lol

That and midscreen acid traps require a LOT more mind games to work.

A lot of his offense can be beaten with delayed wakeup. He has to commit to all of his mixups too. If he dashes up after acid to do a b222 mixup, you can just delay wakeup and full combo punish him for doing it.

He's still good, of course. But he doesn't mix up for free-free like he did week one

 

[Matix218]

Yeah but I don't think he's afraid of anyone. Pretty sure he's a cyborg or something. Lol

He is a freak for sure

 

[Ayx]

Everyone knows the real reason Sonic Fox made Sub Zero B tier was to avoid Tom Brady posting another 45min long video on how Sub Zero is NOT overpowered and will then vent for a week straight on social media. No one wants to see that.

 

[xenogorgeous]

Everyone knows the real reason Sonic Fox made Sub Zero B tier was to avoid Tom Brady posting another 45min long video on how Sub Zero is NOT overpowered and will then vent for a week straight on social media. No one wants to see that.

haha, genius priceless statement here !

 

[DixieFlatline78]

Everyone knows the real reason Sonic Fox made Sub Zero B tier was to avoid Tom Brady posting another 45min long video on how Sub Zero is NOT overpowered and will then vent for a week straight on social media. No one wants to see that.

I do. Tom Brady's venting videos are 100% comfycore