TYM’s Tier List Discussion Thread

[LawAbidingCitizen]

If you and your friend are on the same level then that wouldnt be the case. People will play good with say a B tier character and lose a close game. Switch to a S tier and then completely get blown up because they had too much faith in their tiers and not themselves.
But your right if you understand the ups and downs of a character and have the ability to execute, your much better off.

I think he is talking about toolsets and the characters overall strength in areas.

Let me give an example, and let's assume two top players are using the characters at the highest level possible.
One uses Kotal Kahn and the other Geras.

Geras can do everything Kotal does but ten time better and also excells in areas Kotal doesn't shine.
Geras has full screen coverage, legit mix, fast mids, amazing buttons, awesome staggers, great pokes, awesome Krushing blows, looping throws, plus on block, his specials are all viable ect
Kotal on the other hand has:
No good pokes with D3 and D4 being slow, D1 has very short range and wiffs on counter pokes, many buttons wiff in combo and in neutral: 1, 2, F1, B2, F2.
He has major problems close up with very risky mix leading to limited damage, all mix is punishable or gaps and only gets mix off moves that have hitbox issues. His pushback that makes him safe is completely negated by crouch block leaving him up close forcing him to deal with tools he can't handle. His specials either are punishable, unsafe or have hitbox issues. His Command Grab has hitbox issues and half the range of normal throw causing it to wiff in many situations. His combos are small damage unless he uses command grab that switches sides giving up position and corner carry. His throw puts them mid to full screen(no looping them). F2 his best and only mud that leads to combo is 22f Startup and has hitbox issues until the very last few frames of animation causing it to get beat out by any normal.
His best normals that work properly only knock down and are quite slow compared to Geras or any A tier, F4 15f mid and F34 a 17f low to mid that knocks down. Sunlight is punishable by all alone and by top tiers it's punishable after setup. Quake is 41f startup and punishable max range by every character off reacting to animation.
I can't even describe everything wrong with Kotal. When compared to Geras or top tiers it's clear Geras has a better toolkit, close, mid and far in every way.
That's why no one is making top 8s with Kotal and why would they when they could choose a character with better tools?

 

[Juggs]

I agree that Kotal isn’t very good. And I feel Sub, in Thin Ice, is a very strong character.

I know Sonic says subs F2 OH is reactible but 19f mix isn't reactable at all. On TYM we posted a reaction program that made you press two different buttons on Overhead/Low attacks. You had to press the button after it initiated or it failed, eliminating hard reads or knowing it was comming and the attack was random.
Many pro players took the test and posted thier results. The overwhelming majority got 20-25 frames reaction with 23 frames being the average.
Sonic got 19 frames one time and 20 the second.
He was clearly faster then other top players. Maybe because of practice.
But I fully believe 19f mix isn't reactable for anyone and it's really only possible with reads, just knowing after a specific move it's comming or just guessing. Sonic has always made godlike reads in majors.

Think about it, if Sub Zero Overhead is completely reactable at 19 frames startup then every move in the game is. I think reactable is closer to 22 frames startup.
I tested at 23 frames got one at 20 but I was not able to get that consistently and neither where the top players.

I think, honestly, it has to do with the animation and letting go of a button instead of pressing a button. I would like to know if there’s a reaction test where you hold a button, and let go, instead of pressing a button. Because I tested this and I could react to the OH by letting go of down. But on other moves that were slower where I had to press a button, it was inconsistent. It could just be a placebo or something, not sure.

 

[XxTheGoblinX]

I think he is talking about toolsets and the characters overall strength in areas.

Let me give an example, and let's assume two top players are using the characters at the highest level possible.
One uses Kotal Kahn and the other Geras.

Geras can do everything Kotal does but ten time better and also excells in areas Kotal doesn't shine.
Geras has full screen coverage, legit mix, fast mids, amazing buttons, awesome staggers, great pokes, awesome Krushing blows, looping throws, plus on block, his specials are all viable ect
Kotal on the other hand has:
No good pokes with D3 and D4 being slow, D1 has very short range and wiffs on counter pokes, many buttons wiff in combo and in neutral: 1, 2, F1, B2, F2.
He has major problems close up with very risky mix leading to limited damage, all mix is punishable or gaps and only gets mix off moves that have hitbox issues. His pushback that makes him safe is completely negated by crouch block leaving him up close forcing him to deal with tools he can't handle. His specials either are punishable, unsafe or have hitbox issues. His Command Grab has hitbox issues and half the range of normal throw causing it to wiff in many situations. His combos are small damage unless he uses command grab that switches sides giving up position and corner carry. His throw puts them mid to full screen(no looping them). F2 his best and only mud that leads to combo is 22f Startup and has hitbox issues until the very last few frames of animation causing it to get beat out by any normal.
His best normals that work properly only knock down and are quite slow compared to Geras or any A tier, F4 15f mid and F34 a 17f low to mid that knocks down. Sunlight is punishable by all alone and by top tiers it's punishable after setup. Quake is 41f startup and punishable max range by every character off reacting to animation.
I can't even describe everything wrong with Kotal. When compared to Geras or top tiers it's clear Geras has a better toolkit, close, mid and far in every way.
That's why no one is making top 8s with Kotal and why would they when they could choose a character with better tools?

Yea in that scenario equal players and assuming they play those characters to ther full potential. Geras wins 100% but as we get higher on the list it the gap gets smaller and smaller.

 

[Metzos]

Shao Kahn at A tier? Ok.

 

[LawAbidingCitizen]

I agree that Kotal isn’t very good. And I feel Sub, in Thin Ice, is a very strong character.

I think, honestly, it has to do with the animation and letting go of a button instead of pressing a button. I would like to know if there’s a reaction test where you hold a button, and let go, instead of pressing a button. Because I tested this and I could react to the OH by letting go of down. But on other moves that were slower where I had to press a button, it was inconsistent. It could just be a placebo or something, not sure.

That is very interesting idea. Maybe someone here can find a test like that. It would be cool is someone made a reaction test program with MK9/X/11 characters, for X it could be Johnnys Overhead (20f) and 11 could be Subs F2(19f) and have button release as well.

The test I was talking about is in the MKX threads if test your might, and many said they could react to Johnnys Overhead making him easy to beat. Noone could consistently pass the test below 20f.
But I'm down for more tests but I personally don't know how to make the programs.

 

[LawAbidingCitizen]

And I feel Sub, in Thin Ice, is a very strong character.

Yeah I use thin ice in some matchups. It's really good. That DB2 has amazing chip and evades so many buttons. Having slide and the full screen mid projectile and good KB off slide definitely rounds off the character nicely. I feel F24 us a good conditioning tool to land B32 into combo. He has a great air projectile similar to kabal as well. I think the other variation us giving up too much by just having F2 combo. I think some are putting to much focus on combo mix when you can be highly effective with other means to open in MK11 throws, command grabs, number of hit guess, staggers, -1 to -3 walk back wiff-punishers and many other tools in this game.

 

[scrubjesus111]

Shao Kahn at A tier? Ok.

I actually did really well with Shao Kahn yesterday just avoiding 80% of his moveset... just b4, d4, f4, d3, f34,1+3 string, throws and his db4. Going positive against ppl using KB combos and shit. Personally I believe SK could be A tier. His b4 is amazing.

 

[Dreamcatcher]

I actually did really well with Shao Kahn yesterday just avoiding 80% of his moveset... just b4, d4, f4, d3, f34,1+3 string, throws and his db4. Going positive against ppl using KB combos and shit. Personally I believe SK could be A tier. His b4 is amazing.

Finally someone said it! His B4 IS amazing, definitely one of the best if not the best in the game. It's quick, decent range and he advances forward so you can continue mixup.

 

[TheReal-Ex_Matt]

Is Scorpion really on the same level as Characters like Erron Black / Geras / Sub Zero?

He has very few mixups that you should be able to block by muscle memory. Especially when his block strings arent nearly as quick as EB's where its almost a 50/50 guess (especially playing online).

Subzero's amplified slide does enormous damage for sucha low risk, same as EB's full screen drop kick which can be amped into a low attack. I'm till relatively new to playing online but It feels like the other "S+ Tier" characters have abilities / strings that are not punishable while Scorpions Teleport can be punished by uppercuts. They are also really predictable after a game or two vs the same opponent.

 

[ogrimtitan]

Is Scorpion really on the same level as Characters like Erron Black / Geras / Sub Zero?

He has very few mixups that you should be able to block by muscle memory. Especially when his block strings arent nearly as quick as EB's where its almost a 50/50 guess (especially playing online).

Subzero's amplified slide does enormous damage for sucha low risk, same as EB's full screen drop kick which can be amped into a low attack. I'm till relatively new to playing online but It feels like the other "S+ Tier" characters have abilities / strings that are not punishable while Scorpions Teleport can be punished by uppercuts. They are also really predictable after a game or two vs the same opponent.

Scorpion is S tier because teleport allows him to control the whole pace of the match whether he uses it or not.

And how is Sub-Zero’s slide “low risk”? It’s an easy full-combo punish.

 

[TheReal-Ex_Matt]

I guess because if youre not already blocking low before the slide comes out you cannot block it on reaction? At least online.

 

[ogrimtitan]

I guess because if youre not already blocking low before the slide comes out you cannot block it on reaction? At least online.

I mean sure, nobody’s reaction-blocking slide. But that’s not what risk/reward means. Side gets Sub on average around 10% damage on hit, depending on whether it’s meter-burned or not. And once per match, it can get him around 33% on a KB. But every time you block it, it should cost him a full-combo 20-40% punish. In that sense it’s actually high risk/low reward. Don’t get me wrong, it’s still an amazing move, but for very different reasons.

 

[M2Dave]

Is Scorpion really on the same level as Characters like Erron Black / Geras / Sub Zero?

He has very few mixups that you should be able to block by muscle memory. Especially when his block strings arent nearly as quick as EB's where its almost a 50/50 guess (especially playing online).

Subzero's amplified slide does enormous damage for sucha low risk, same as EB's full screen drop kick which can be amped into a low attack. I'm till relatively new to playing online but It feels like the other "S+ Tier" characters have abilities / strings that are not punishable while Scorpions Teleport can be punished by uppercuts. They are also really predictable after a game or two vs the same opponent.

The teleport should primarily be used as a combo extension, anti-zoning, and whiff punishing tool. In Reborn, you can also use the teleport to run away and make strings safe. Throwing out random teleports as most players do in ranked sets is usually a bad idea because the risk versus reward ratio is unfavorable to Scorpion. Players who are familiar with the Scorpion match up punish blocked teleports the vast majority of the time. Canceled down teleports in Reborn are good, but if your opponent neutral crouches, you get punished by a krushing blow uppercut for massive damage and you lose your ability to break away.

Even if Scorpion is not in Geras's and Erron Black's tier list, they cannot be much better than he is. He has the best special move in the game for controlling the pace of the match combined with great pokes and strings.

 

[santanabar]

The teleport should primarily be used as a combo extension, anti-zoning, and whiff punishing tool. In Reborn, you can also use the teleport to run away and make strings safe. Throwing out random teleports as most players do in ranked sets is usually a bad idea because the risk versus reward ratio is unfavorable to Scorpion. Players who are familiar with the Scorpion match up punish blocked teleports the vast majority of the time. Canceled down teleports in Reborn are good, but if your opponent neutral crouches, you get punished by a krushing blow uppercut for massive damage and you lose your ability to break away.

Even if Scorpion is not in Geras's and Erron Black's tier list, they cannot be much better than he is. He has the best special move in the game for controlling the pace of the match combined with great pokes and strings.

Actually I find a lot harder to deal with scorpions that throw a random teleport once in a while. Getting whiff punished by a teleport when you are plus is the most infuriating sh*t lol

 

[TheReal-Ex_Matt]

Watching combo breaker 2019 all im seeing is Sub Zero, Erron Black, Geras, Sonya with some random characters mixed in. Maybe they will make some adjustments.

 

[Dreamcatcher]

My tier list for where we're at in the game so far. I main EB, Jax, and Shao Kahn. (a little Frost too)

 

[TheReal-Ex_Matt]

I have a question about B4 in general.

I watched Combo Breaker over the weekend and didn't notice many players using B4's at all. I'm just wondering if its considered to be a bad option? I find the quick knock down forcing your opponent in a position where they have to guess can always be beneficial no matter what character.

I'm new to MK so I don't really know all the optimal punishes yet. . . I usually throw out a B4 when I'm not sure and if it hits I can go in for a mixup or shimmy.

 

[Zoidberg747]

View attachment 14736

My tier list for where we're at in the game so far. I main EB, Jax, and Shao Kahn. (a little Frost too)

Jade and Kitana are both B for sure. Jade could even be A, Waz, KP, and Big D showed this weekend that she has really solid tools if you play the lame keepaway game. Kitana has some more problems and I think Semij is just an incredible player, but she is still solid and upper mid tier imo.

Jax and Kano should be lower, Kano for sure. Biohazard is an amazing player but you could tell he was struggling once people were familiar with the matchup. Kano is viable but he has a lot of holes in his gameplay. Jax is probably more solid but he still struggles against zoners and isn't as good as most other rushdown characters. Johnny should also be moved down probably, he has good footsies but that's about it.

My .02$

 

[NeonGroovyGator]

My take after CB.
I feel like the game is very balanced and the characters in A+, A and A- are the balance standard we should kinda aim for. Sure, a lot of these characters could use some QoL improvements and small tweaks, but they feel mostly fine.
B and C are the ones that need some help when the patch eventually rolls out imo.
Tiers in order-ish.
Characters I'm a bit unsure of: Shao Kahn and Jax I haven't seen enough of. Cassie and Jacqui could be borderline S tier.
Edit: for reference I play mostly Jade, Sonya and Kitana with a bit of Skarlet and Johnny on the side.
Edit2: the more I think about it, the more swapping A-'s name for B+ makes sense to me. But w/e

 

[TakeAChance]

All I know, is I've never labbed against shao khan, but I just got bodied by 2nd variatino shao khan....like I mean...exposed and wrecked. I'm a little shook.

 

[M2Dave]

Jax is probably more solid but he still struggles against zoners and isn't as good as most other rushdown characters.

Check out Gunshow's YouTube channel. He regularly uploads sets versus tournament players. He uses the variation with the command grab and and performs at a high level. If I remember correctly, he has recently even beaten Semiij in a series.

Jax has limited combo potential, but he has access to three krushing blows that he hits almost every match (i.e., f+2,1+3 or f+3,3,1+3, double amplified command grab, double heated projectile in combos, particularly after krushing blow d+2). Both of Jax's throws are similar to Geras's in terms of advantage and position. You are forced to block f+2 or do wake up attacks. f+2 has a very good whiff recovery so if Jax does f+2 and the opponent remains on the ground, d+1 beats any retaliation, which sets up further okizeme options. Jax also has one of the best fatal blows in the game. It does not hit full screen away but is only slightly slower than Erron Black's and hits mid. It automatically charges heat to maximum and gives Jax great comeback potential. Getting hit by a fatal blow followed by a krushing blow command grab results in 70%+ of damage. He has a 9 frame mid string too.

I could go on, but the point is Jax is no B tier character. Jax being on the same terms as characters like Kollector and Shao Kahn is preposterous. I think he is at least A tier. He plays the meta very well.

 

[Dreamcatcher]

Check out Gunshow's YouTube channel. He regularly uploads sets versus tournament players. He uses the variation with the command grab and and performs at a high level. If I remember correctly, he has recently even beaten Semiij in a series.

Jax has limited combo potential, but he has access to three krushing blows that he hits almost every match (i.e., f+2,1+3 or f+3,3,1+3, double amplified command grab, double heated projectile in combos, particularly after krushing blow d+2). Both of Jax's throws are similar to Geras's in terms of advantage and position. You are forced to block f+2 or do wake up attacks. f+2 has a very good whiff recovery so if Jax does f+2 and the opponent remains on the ground, d+1 beats any retaliation, which sets up further okizeme options. Jax also has one of the best fatal blows in the game. It does not hit full screen away but is only slightly slower than Erron Black's and hits mid. It automatically charges heat to maximum and gives Jax great comeback potential. Getting hit by a fatal blow followed by a krushing blow command grab results in 70%+ of damage. He has a 9 frame mid string too.

I could go on, but the point is Jax is no B tier character. Jax being on the same terms as characters like Kollector and Shao Kahn is preposterous. I think he is at least A tier. He plays the meta very well.

Jax is massively underrated in this game. I started maining him not long ago and he's a lot of fun to use.

 

[StormGoddess]

PND Ketchup's Post-Combo Breaker Tier List

 

[HapHaxion]

Jacqui and Frost moving up in people's lists now. Wondering which MUs are looking better for them now than they did before.

 

[xenogorgeous]

PND Ketchup's Post-Combo Breaker Tier List

seems good ! but I still prefer wait for Evo to see how things gonna consolidate regarding this tier list subject