Should pokes be more negative on block?

[CrimsonShadow]

Geras has variable framedata on d1 due to 2 active frames and at certain ranges it becomes -3, and it does trade with both d1 and d3 at that range, and i can't just block and walk "back words" because he might as well just go for his mid in that situation and just straight up beat me, or even if i block it i'm back at -3 situation after he finishes the string on block, maybe you should try these things in actual games before glancing at framedata and making your assumptions LOL!

That's how yomi works. If you think he's going to go for his mid, you do something that beats it.

But if he is, he's no longer just mashing d1, which is the point.

 

[trufenix]

yes, because if there's one thing this game is short on, its way to punish your opponent's mistakes.

jesus christ. Learn to flawless block punish, learn how to get up off the ground and out of the corner more effectively, or just pick one of the thirteen character's with parries if waiting your turn is so hard.

 

[Edmund]

No.

It’s super easy to counter any form of masher, you just gotta know frames.

 

[GODLIKE OBI]

@LawAbidingCitizen
I only think d1 and d3 should be more negative.
I think it's silly how it is now. The mindgame isn't really there. You can "just do it" in regards to d1 and d3. There is no risk since you can just block any follow up and it often pushes the opponent out of reversal throw range when blocked. I just want d1 and d3 to be about -7 or -8. You can still poke someone who's crouch blocking and walk back to whiff punish if you space the poke correctly. People are still going to mash pokes anyway and we can all still blow up bad players who abuse that. At -8 reversal throw still isn't guaranteed, which is good. -8 also gives you an easier time to poke back a masher without having to be within a 5 frame window when you cant even get a "reversal" with a normal attack.
I think the hit advantage is fine where it is for the most part. Pokes on hit should give you a jailing follow up but not guarantee a throw attempt.
As far as the "mindgame" goes, remember in mk9 when pokes were punishable on block? Remember when tyrant and CD jr went head to head and the moments when they were both blocking in each others face, daring each other to make a move? That's a mindgame.

 

[colby4898]

How are so many struggling with basic fundamentals?

They are fine. Just counter poke, walk back, throw. Noone can D1, D1, D1 if you block and counter poke. Even if it's -3 on block.
6f poke on block -3 = 9 frames till next one comes out and most pokes are 6-8 frames startup.

-9 on block with an 8 frame start up poke is pretty tight though. I feel a 6f d1 should be -5, 7f -4 8f -3

 

[Cashual]

The opposite. It was a lot easier. That's why 99% of the playerbase punished pokes with pokes instead of the full combos they should.

Avoiding, baiting, punishing etc pokes on whiff is something very few players did, notably REO with max range D3 into backdash F4 ND/C hitconfirm.

The reason people are complaining now is that this meta has changed, and all the current options you have in this game used to be the "obscure" 3rd, 4th and 5th options in previous games. And again, 99% of the playerbase is having to re-explore their options during poking.

Can you go into this a bit more. It’s interesting.

My opponent d1’s it’s 7f, I block it (anticipating the d1 check and ready with a button), what should I be doing?

In mkx I would usually counterpoke, hit them and then go into a mid, or sometimes delay my counterpoke allowing them to block and then do d1xxspecial to catch their poke back.

Help me out here. Anyone got any videos exploring the poke game for MK11?

 

[LawAbidingCitizen]

-9 on block with an 8 frame start up poke is pretty tight though. I feel a 6f d1 should be -5, 7f -4 8f -3

That seems reasonable. I was only against every poke being more than -7 on block like op stated.

 

[LawAbidingCitizen]

@LawAbidingCitizen
I only think d1 and d3 should be more negative.
I think it's silly how it is now. The mindgame isn't really there. You can "just do it" in regards to d1 and d3. There is no risk since you can just block any follow up and it often pushes the opponent out of reversal throw range when blocked. I just want d1 and d3 to be about -7 or -8. You can still poke someone who's crouch blocking and walk back to whiff punish if you space the poke correctly. People are still going to mash pokes anyway and we can all still blow up bad players who abuse that. At -8 reversal throw still isn't guaranteed, which is good. -8 also gives you an easier time to poke back a masher without having to be within a 5 frame window when you cant even get a "reversal" with a normal attack.
I think the hit advantage is fine where it is for the most part. Pokes on hit should give you a jailing follow up but not guarantee a throw attempt.
As far as the "mindgame" goes, remember in mk9 when pokes were punishable on block? Remember when tyrant and CD jr went head to head and the moments when they were both blocking in each others face, daring each other to make a move? That's a mindgame.

I'd be fine with -5 or -6 on 6 frame moves but not -7 or -8.
I can see where people are frustrated with -3 but a 6f poke being -3 on block allows throw to counter and walk back. If it was -7 it -8 it's garantees most of the cast get a free on hit poke eliminating options for poke war. Then we have different speeds and a wide range of move lists.

There are legitimate options for all poke war tactics in MK11.
Like I said if pokes where -7 or more on block it will eliminate walk back. Walk back doesn't reversal so you are a frame late. If pokes where -7 OB and most are 7f Startup on average I'd get hit trying to walk back to wiff punish on a read.
Like I said before I'd be fine with -5 on Block for (6f startup) or -4 on block(7f startup) ect.

 

[Xzyj]

That's how yomi works. If you think he's going to go for his mid, you do something that beats it.

But if he is, he's no longer just mashing d1, which is the point.

i understand the mindgame and all my options i'm just saying that in my opinion it's not something appealing to deal with when the window is too tight, as i said i'm not in favor of making pokes actually punishable, but they should not be less than -5 or -6 imo

 

[Wigy]

Geras's should be minus 6. I don't care about any of the others. You cant even walk back whiff punish cause it's got stupid ass range.

Why is it the most plus d1 also the fastest with probably the most range lol.

 

[GODLIKE OBI]

I'd be fine with -5 or -6 on 6 frame moves but not -7 or -8.
I can see where people are frustrated with -3 but a 6f poke being -3 on block allows throw to counter and walk back. If it was -7 it -8 it's garantees most of the cast get a free on hit poke eliminating walk back. Then we have different speeds and a wide range of move lists.

A 6f poke can punish a -7 on block poke on reversal because it executes 1 frame faster on reversal.

There are legitimate options for all poke war tactics in MK11.
Like I said if pokes where -7 or more on block it will eliminate walk back. Walk back doesn't reversal so you are a frame late. If pokes where -7 OB and most are 7f Startup on average I'd get hit trying to walk back to wiff punish on a read.
Like I said before I'd be fine with -5 on Block for (6f startup) or -4 on block(7f startup) ect.

You cant reversal with a normal. Only special moves and throws can reversal out of block. As for the walk back option it already doesn't work up close. If you poke up close and its blocked then you cant move or you'll get poked back. You have to poke at the furthest range your d3 allows to push them out of range to poke back. This is already how poking into whiff punishing works. Making a d3 have 3 more recovery frames when blocked will not change this at all.
If you are getting away with poking a crouch blocked opponent, walking backwards and whiff punishing their poke then they are just slow on the counterpoke and again 3 more recovery frames will not make it noticeably easier for them.

 

[kcd117]

What is the problem in pokes being -6/-7 then? The yomi layers would still be there, they would just not heavily benefit some characters.

You guys are not really getting what op is saying. Beating mashers is not hard. Now good players that do calculated mashing in situations where the guessing game is completely lopsided to their side is the hard part. Rn some character’s best case scenario in this super high level “learn how to play the game” poking war is not good enough to make anyone that knows the game respect them. In fact, some counter strategies and even said “punishes” presented here do nothing but reset neutral or put the characters in bad positions. For example, try walking back using Kano to whiff punish a good Erron player that is disrespecting your turn bc he knows he is getting D1ed at worst after you block his D1. See how that works out.

Just incase you guys haven’t noticed, the said top tiers happen to be characters that are godlike at stealing turns and avoid having their turns stolen. Geras D1 is basically a meme rn, Erron has the best pokes in the game, and they even low profile some other pokes, Sonya’s D3 goes under a lot of stuff, Scorpion’s and Sub’s poking game are pretty ridiculous and all of them have great checks.

 

[Qwark28]

Pokes execute a frame quicker on reversal

Source on that pls, I've never know this to be the case.

 

[GODLIKE OBI]

You cant reversal with a normal. Only special moves and throws can reversal out of block. As for the walk back option it already doesn't work up close. If you poke up close and its blocked then you cant move or you'll get poked back. You have to poke at the furthest range your d3 allows to push them out of range to poke back. This is already how poking into whiff punishing works. Making a d3 have 3 more recovery frames when blocked will not change this at all.

Pokes execute a frame quicker on reversal so do Special moves.
If I pike and they block I can't walk back, but if they poke and I block I can.
Maybe I worded it wrong. Either way I know pokes in this game act one frame faster on punish/reversal because I can punish a negative 7 on block move with a 7 frame poke.
I'm talking about when they mash D1 I block first and walk back wiff punish. But yes I think I worded things incorrect.

I don't want pokes to be -7 it -8 because it garantees hit for the opponent. And I like having the poke war, the back and forth reads.
Since there are counters to all of it I'm fine with it. My only complaint is certain characters having wiffing Pokes and starters removing most of thier options like Kotal.

Pokes do not come a frame faster. They can not reversal out of block. You can't punish a -7 move with a 7 frame normal. It would have to be 6 frames. And again having 3 more recovery frames on block will not deter people from mashing pokes. You can still walk back after blocking the first one if that is your read and you want a full combo instead of the guaranteed counterpoke into pressure.

 

[Qwark28]

Can you go into this a bit more. It’s interesting.

My opponent d1’s it’s 7f, I block it (anticipating the d1 check and ready with a button), what should I be doing?

In mkx I would usually counterpoke, hit them and then go into a mid, or sometimes delay my counterpoke allowing them to block and then do d1xxspecial to catch their poke back.

Help me out here. Anyone got any videos exploring the poke game for MK11?

What part specifically? The primary ways to deal with poking in MK9 was either to block and punish them with a string, which happened almost exclusively in very high level matches, or punish with your own guaranteed D1/D3.

Next up were things like doing a D3 on block ( -7 or so ) from some distance away, then throwing out a hitconfirmable string to catch the opponent's counterpoke/string that you set up to whiff.

Then you had pokes into specials, aka what scorpion was forced to do 24/7 since his pokes were completely garbage and - or 0 on hit, he'd be forced to cancel to either takedown ( ex if the opp was frame perfect in interrupting with D1 ) or ex spear, which would randomly whiff and be low profiled by 80% of the game's pokes.

watch this and this

 

[deathstroke187]

I think at this moment everyone knows that mashing is being a very common thing in MK11. Pokes that are 6/7 frames on block and -3/-4 on block might be very annoying for some characters that the fastest mid is a 8 frames poke. This creates a game that everytime you see people doing D1 D1 D1 D3 D4 and that's not fun.
I think all pokes should have a gap of at least 13 frames. For example: 6 frames poke -7 on block. 7 frames poke -6 on block. Etc

Mashing is making people really salty lmao

this has nothing to do with pokes been broken or anything its related to network , it seems it adds more frames that we think

 

[deathstroke187]

What part specifically? The primary ways to deal with poking in MK9 was either to block and punish them with a string, which happened almost exclusively in very high level matches, or punish with your own guaranteed D1/D3.

Next up were things like doing a D3 on block ( -7 or so ) from some distance away, then throwing out a hitconfirmable string to catch the opponent's counterpoke/string that you set up to whiff.

Then you had pokes into specials, aka what scorpion was forced to do 24/7 since his pokes were completely garbage and - or 0 on hit, he'd be forced to cancel to either takedown ( ex if the opp was frame perfect in interrupting with D1 ) or ex spear, which would randomly whiff and be low profiled by 80% of the game's pokes.

watch this and this

unless you play againts kitana online her d1 tend to hit you while walking back

 

[Marinjuana]

Some characters could probably get their pokes touched up but I think this is ridiculous. Pokes do like no damage.

The poking meta is one of the most unique and deep aspects of NRS games.

 

[LawAbidingCitizen]

Pokes do not come a frame faster. They can not reversal out of block. You can't punish a -7 move with a 7 frame normal. It would have to be 6 frames. And again having 3 more recovery frames on block will not deter people from mashing pokes. You can still walk back after blocking the first one if that is your read and you want a full combo instead of the guaranteed counterpoke into pressure.

Look you may be right about the no reversal with pokes but Im almost positive I've punished -7 move with a 7f poke. Maybe it's a problem with in game frame data.
Maybe it's that a 7 frame move doesn't connect on 7 frames but actually 8 on it's active. Do you know anything about how many frames it takes to block it let off crouch block into standing normal?

Pokes do not come a frame faster. They can not reversal out of block. You can't punish a -7 move with a 7 frame normal. It would have to be 6 frames. And again having 3 more recovery frames on block will not deter people from mashing pokes. You can still walk back after blocking the first one if that is your read and you want a full combo instead of the guaranteed counterpoke into pressure.

Ok if you are positive pokes don't reversal or act one frame faster maybe the data is incorrect for certain moves.

Back to my main concern. I don't want garanteed hit from counter poke. I like the poke war. Since there are options to counter pokes like throw I'm fine having the back and forth. If I hit because they failed to block after check I get combo and fast starters jail.
I mean what's wrong with doing a D4 to gain space and wiff punish?

 

[B. Shazzy]

It's not hard to blow up people who do this.

You know if Sonya player just holds up after d1 on hit there, she beats literally all those options jacqui does for a full combo?

bUt dAts wHen yOu dO a sTring

and thats when they mash through it because not every character is 9f mid jacqui. By the time you realize d1 hits you have a split second window to follow up with your double digit mid. on top of this being training mode, not a real match where people do all kinds of shit at different timings and things arent static. Why cant I just hit my d1 hitconfirm into my my mid? Why do I have to try so hard just to get someone to block

Lets just face it. The mashing in this game is ugly, scrubby and too effective. Nobody wants to block because why would they when squirming around risking a 1% d1 is worst case scenario. Basically this game people play where a person will d1 and block after is operating on some honor system. Just d1 again and again until it hits. It techs throws too! You are playing the game wrong game by blocking at - frames, seriously lol

 

[kcd117]

Im almost positive I've punished -7 move with a 7f poke.

That is not possible.

 

[Professor Oak]

Who wants to play on PSN?

 

[Marinjuana]

That is not possible.

Didn't Dizzy recently debunk the idea that a 7 frame normal can't punish -7?

 

[kcd117]

Didn't Dizzy recently debunk the idea that a 7 frame normal can't punish -7?

Afaik he actually said that startup includes no active frames, which confirms that a 7 frame startup move is not active until its 8th frame.

 

[GODLIKE OBI]

Maybe it's that a 7 frame move doesn't connect on 7 frames but actually 8 on it's active. Do you know anything about how many frames it takes to block it let off crouch block into standing normal?

So from my understanding the 7 frame move is active on frame 7. The reason you cant use this move to punish someone who is at -7 is because 7 frames later (same frame your attack becomes active) puts them at +/-0 and block becomes active on this frame.
Blocking or coming out of block has no startup. Same thing with crouching (the status of being crouched i.e. blocking lows, not actually crouching low) and standing. So using the same -7 on block scenario you can use a 6 frame standing move to punish even if you were crouch blocking.
Edit:

Afaik he actually said that startup includes no active frames, which confirms that a 7 frame startup move is not active until its 8th frame.

If this is the case then the point is effectively the same in my post.