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Should pokes be more negative on block?

Pokes more negative on block?


  • Total voters
    155

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
So you block d1 #2 but you just so happened to miss a 5 frame window to throw a poke back. Here comes d1 #3.
If you can't counterpoke you just need to practice and get good at the game. Or just throw them out of the next poke, which will beat it for you since your reactions may be slow.

And if your opponent's followup to landing a d1 is to just d1 again instead of pressuring you or mixing you up, they're actually doing you a gigantic favor because they don't know how to play the game.
 
And let's just clear something up, no one is saying pokes are overpowered how can i possible deal with this? :'(
The point is that it's stupid and doesn't fault braindead play
 
If you can't counterpoke you just need to practice and get good at the game. Or just throw them out of the next poke, which will beat it for you since your reactions may be slow.

And if your opponent's followup to landing a d1 is to just d1 again instead of pressuring you or mixing you up, they're actually doing you a gigantic favor because they don't know how to play the game.
I know how to counterpoke. I'm literally advocating for frame perfect counterpokes to be a punish.
 

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
And let's just clear something up, no one is saying pokes are overpowered how can i possible deal with this? :'(
The point is that it's stupid and doesn't fault braindead play
We've outlined maybe 4-5 ways to blow up people who repeatedly mash a poke.

And your response to that is to say the game 'doesn't fault braindead play'.
 
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We've outlined maybe 4-5 ways to blow up people who repeatedly mash a poke.

And your response to that is to say the game 'doesn't fault braindead play'.

That's hilarious.
Yeah but you're pretending like people either only mash poke or never mash poke. Sometimes they do it randomly.
You act like I'm getting mopped by d1 d1 d1 d1. That's not the case. People get away with low pokes for free because they are like -4 on block
 
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CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
Yeah but you're pretending like people either only mash poke or never mash poke. Sometimes they do it randomly.
You act like I'm getting mopped by d1 d1 d1 d1. That's not the case. People get away with low pokes for free because they are like -4 on block
They don't get a chance to do it "randomly" if you're responding properly to a blocked poke. And if they do it "randomly" after actually landing a poke, they're just not good players, period.

People don't "Get away with low pokes for free". This has already been explained like 50x in this thread. If you choose to ignore it, I guess just enjoy not learning how to play the game.
 

B. Shazzy

NRS shill #42069
If the Sonya player is holding up then just stand up and s1 her into a full combo. Or d2 her. Like, d1 and then jumping is a complete issue than mindlessly/repeatedly mashing d1, which is what this thread was about.
Says the guy complaining about single-hit attacks that are negative on block.
Im suggesting ways to improve the game. Just because I dont like something, doesn’t mean I dont know what to do. It doesnt make it any less scrubby. It doesn’t make the game more interesting by forcing me to deal with it. I guarantee the game would be a million times better if they did something about pokes for everyone.

Im talking from experience, not training mode recordings. Nobody is playing the “your turn my turn” d1 game. Its like how in real life police don’t just shoot guns out of people’s hands in the movies to disarm them, like you want me to just reversal frame perfectly react and input a full double digit mid combo string to catch mashes. While trying to scout a throw, godtier jump ins and keep my spacing and all the other fundamental concepts a good player thinks about... nah forget all that, let me just wait for d1 all the time so I can D1. Godlike gameplay.
 

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
Im suggesting ways to improve the game. Just because I dont like something, doesn’t mean I dont know what to do. It doesnt make it any less scrubby. It doesn’t make the game more interesting by forcing me to deal with it. I guarantee the game would be a million times better if they did something about pokes for everyone.

Im talking from experience, not training mode recordings. Nobody is playing the “your turn my turn” d1 game. Its like how in real life police don’t just shoot guns out of people’s hands in the movies to disarm them, like you want me to just reversal frame perfectly react and input a full double digit mid combo string to catch mashes. While trying to scout a throw, godtier jump ins and keep my spacing and all the other fundamental concepts a good player thinks about... nah forget all that, let me just wait for d1 all the time so I can D1. Thats what Daigo does too I bet.
There are some points I agree with you on. Blockstun is one of them. I think the amount of blockstun compared to the frame data in these games is often really random, and that leads to awkward situations and punishes that shouldn't be awkward.

Where I don't agree is about the blockstun on pokes. The timing is pretty universal, it's not that hard.

And ok, say you're unable to scout d1s because of all the other godlike fighting game items of readiness you listed. If I mash 3 pokes in the same situation the next time you'll be ready for it and blow me up (at least I hope so, since you're the online Daigo of NRS games).
 

B. Shazzy

NRS shill #42069
There are some points I agree with you on. Blockstun is one of them. I think the amount of blockstun compared to the frame data in these games is often really random, and that leads to awkward situations and punishes that shouldn't be awkward.

Where I don't agree is about the blockstun on pokes. The timing is pretty universal, it's not that hard.

And ok, say you're unable to scout d1s because of all the other godlike fighting game items of readiness you listed. If I mash 3 pokes in the same situation the next time you'll be ready for it and blow me up (at least I hope so, since you're the online Daigo of NRS games).
You shouldnt have to scout d1s period. They should be quick reactive checks (6F mids) to keep opponents honest when staggering. Not mashable checks. Right now, if anyone tells me they can react, not predict, to Geras mashing D1 in time and interrupt with a mid string then theyre lying. Forget that D1 D1 trash meta. Pokes should be more in line wih D4s in terms of blockstuns so they carry thoughtful use behind them instead of “what are you gonna do about it bro”.
 

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
You shouldnt have to scout d1s period. They should be quick check to keep opponents to reactively check staggers. Not mashable checks. Right now, if anyone tells me they can react, not predict, to Geras mashing D1 in time and interrupt with a mid string then theyre lying. Forget that D1 D1 trash meta imo. Pokes should be more in line wih D4s in terms of blockstuns
Someone happening to use it a couple times at one point is different from someone who's a masher. If someone is actually mashing, i.e. repeatedly spamming the button on block frequently, then of course you'll be waiting for it and ready to blow them up.

There are guys in this thread talking about the kind of people who don't even confirm their pokes on hit. We're talking like Level 1 meta here.
 

B. Shazzy

NRS shill #42069
Someone happening to use it a couple times at one point is different from someone who's a masher. If someone is actually mashing, i.e. repeatedly spamming the button on block frequently, then of course you'll be waiting for it and ready to blow them up.

There are guys in this thread talking about the kind of people who don't even confirm their pokes on hit. We're talking like Level 1 meta here.
Here’s the thing. The person on defense is blocking and waiting to react to take their turn back, like any good player should. I cant just sit here and focus on his D1 because that opens too many door. The person mashing D1 has all power because he knows what to look for. By the time I block the D1 and realize I blocked it, I dont have time to pick any mid I want and take my turn here. My opponent has already anticipated me blocking and is d1ing me again at this point. If it hits then he goes into whatever.

If I let him mash then im effectively giving up my turn. If I sit here and scout D1s all day then Im opening myself up to everything else. Why does a D1 have this much power? Nobody wants to deal with this and the game doesnt become this theory fighter training mode situatiom were people respect frames. It becomes an ugly mash/ hold up fest where nobody wants to block ever if they can help it.

Youre not getting that mashing isnt some level 1 strategy. Youre supposed to mash to tech throws. People will always always do something. Blocking is for skrubs in this meta
 
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kcd117

Noob
You’d think some people here are fighting game Jesus for what they’re saying. But then you realize they can barely read properly.

@ all of you telling it is easy to blow up mashers. Who tf said otherwise? I don’t think anyone here has a problem with straight up mashers. The real problem is that the -3ish poke war makes it so braindead and effective for people to mash out of certain situations against most characters that it creates a mindgame where there really shouldn’t be one. Like, you’re telling me that the best I can do to check Sonya’s low profiling ass D3ing me twice in a row is to walk back that space that I fought for during the last 30 seconds, just to get in the sweet spot of her B1. Nice strat, but have you ever played someone that is half decent? Bc if they don’t catch up to it and just walk back or actually B1 the shit out of you walking back the next time you try they are not really that decent. “But just poke back” yes, that is correct, I poke back and get that 2% dmg, I guess wrong I am losing 40% or negative again and in a 50/50. Once again, mashers are not the problem, the problem is people that weight the risk/reward of the situation and realize that they are risking 2% life for another turn of their oppressive dominant offense, and at the same time are getting to condition you to give up on your turn to fish for a whiff punish that in a lot of cases lead to a neutral reset situation that is not good for your character just bc you suddenly have to guess if they gonna mash on top of all the other things they can do.

I don’t think this is really a major problem when you are using those 7/8 characters that don’t really play this game, outside of looking extremely scrubby, once you block a poke you can probably force the most fucked up situations upon the other character. But when you don't play one of those characters the risk/reward is completely off. Like, really, can anyone that has this deep knowledge of the meta in less than a month tell me who has to really guess when characters like Kano, Frost, Kotal, etc Blocks a poke from Geras, Erron, Sonya, Scorpion, etc? I'm not talking about the Briggs and Lius of the game that can melt your lifebar if you mash, I wanna know what the characters that don't have access to good "respect my frames" normals can actually do against mashing without risking their lives, and that actually favors them.

I just want pokes to be more negative so everyone has to think about mashing against everyone. I don't want the poke meta to be gone, I just want it to be fair for everyone, not just for those that have great mids, oppressive offense and ridiculous pokes. I want the player who is - to be taking the risk here, I want him to be making the read, not the opposite.
 
Geras has a 6 frame poke, -4 on block. You block his poke. Let's say you play a character with a 9 frame mid (best mid in the game). You literally have a 1 frame window to react to the block, and input your button. On the other side, the guy is literally mashing. And remember, most of us play online. So yeah... "GiT gOod sCruB" "You just lab it lul"... ok.

Erron, same situation, 6 frame, -4 on block. Scorpion, similar, 7 frame poke, -3 on block. You get the idea...

And what happens when you don't have a 9 frame mid character? Well f*ck you.

Not to mention a lot of d3 will low profile your mids for some reason...
 

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
Im talking from experience, not training mode recordings. Nobody is playing the “your turn my turn” d1 game. Its like how in real life police don’t just shoot guns out of people’s hands in the movies to disarm them, like you want me to just reversal frame perfectly react and input a full double digit mid combo string to catch mashes.
Just started watching Twitch and within 2 minutes here's "My poke your poke"


Throw.. Walk back... Where have we heard this before ;)

Tigerrzz isn't too good to play the meta :p
 
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Just because he wants D1s to be more - doesn't mean he's a scrub. D1s are in the best state they've ever been in.

And your examples are wrong. In mk9, d1s were straight up punishable by fast mids. If you D1'd against a good johnny who was on point, you'd eat a full F3 combo.

In MKX they were more - so you didn't see this often unless you played as/vs tremor.
Miss Jax in MK9
 

kcd117

Noob
Just started watching Twitch and within 2 minutes here's "My poke your poke"


Throw.. Walk back... Where have we heard this before ;)

Tigerrzz isn't too good to play the meta :p
I’m pretty sure I remember you being in King’s stream last night so you also know what he had to say about poking games like Scorpion’s hours after winning a tournament.

But I guess this is still a scrubby complaint.
 

Vslayer

I'm a gril
Moderator
Premium Supporter
This is not MKX, you can’t stay in your opponent’s face all the time because of how good grabs and pokes are. Walk back, use D4 to stagger. Control the space or get mashed to death.
 

Gaxkang

Noob
I think the "pokes" need an overhaul but I think the whole game needs an overhaul really. How krushing blows were set up alone demonstrates a lot of questionable design.

But yeah much of the game is a D1fest or D3fest. If you have a low a D3, that is.

So much of the questions during a fight is Did my D1 hit or be blocked? Did theirs hit or did I block it? Was I quick enough to do something if I blocked it? How's the online quality (not so good)? Rinse, repeat for the D3's.
And that's much of what a fight is.

It tends to feel and look ridiculous.

Of the recent fighting games I have played, and saying so as a I guess semi-casual player, I put MK11 at the bottom of the barrel with Fighter Z which I felt wasn't good.
Injustice 2 was better than MK11 right now, I think.

Each fighting game has issues, but I see them piling up with MK11 and in a core way really.
 

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
So much of the questions during a fight is Did my D1 hit or be blocked? Did theirs hit or did I block it? Was I quick enough to do something if I blocked it?
Which is honestly a pretty fun mind game that keeps you sharp. I've been enjoying this since launch. It also separates 'mashers' from players who actually know how to respond to what happens.
 

Gaxkang

Noob
Which is honestly a pretty fun mind game that keeps you sharp. I've been enjoying this since launch. It also separates 'mashers' from players who actually know how to respond to what happens.
If it stays consistent it can be a mind game of sorts sure, tho I suspect online it may not always be consistent.

I suppose I wish one could block strings and punish with a string or have more of a back and forth with that somehow. As it is blocking a string can push someone away and an advancing string won't work (they will be hitting D1 anyways probably), and so when you block a string the big question is whether you can D1 or not before theirs works on you, or if you should just keep blocking.
And if they aren't pushed away, they will be hitting D1 probaby...and so the same question gets applied.
 

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
If it stays consistent it can be a mind game of sorts sure, tho I suspect online it may not always be consistent.

I suppose I wish one could block strings and punish with a string or have more of a back and forth with that somehow. As it is blocking a string can push someone away and an advancing string won't work (they will be hitting D1 anyways probably), and so when you block a string the big question is whether you can D1 or not before theirs works on you, or if you should just keep blocking.
And if they aren't pushed away, they will be hitting D1 probaby...and so the same question gets applied.
Yeah, but if you know they’re probably going to mash d1, you just take a half step back and blow them up for it.

You’re only getting hit by it because you’re trying to autopilot your string afterward, instead of catering your reaction to a read on what your opponent is going to do next.

Or you could just throw them out of their d1. That beats it no matter what.

Shimmies, neutral jumps, cross overs, throws, d4s etc. are all important in this game. If you’re just autopiloting a string every time you block one, you’re not really playing the game in an optimal way.
 
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Which is honestly a pretty fun mind game that keeps you sharp. I've been enjoying this since launch. It also separates 'mashers' from players who actually know how to respond to what happens.
To play the devils advocate here, I guess one could argue that the D1 heavy focus of MK11 is an oversimplification of how other games handle taking turns (i.e. force crouch in Tekken blowing up mashers et.c.) which in turn actually could cater to mashing. You get tired of waiting for your turn so you hold down and slam that 1-button and there you go! I don't recall playing a FG where most casuals consistently 1) punish most stuff (mashing throw) and 2) get their rightful turn (mashing D1). Not sure whether this is a good or bad thing.
 
You people should go play SFV where pokes are 3f startup, 0 on block before complaining about pokes in MK11.....
Btw, in MK9 poking system was garbage. Don't ever bring that game here it's no longer relevant anymore.
 

_CHINOCUDEIRO_

Machakabotones
How many frames is the backdash?
If the backdash is faster than now, the option of blocking-backdash-punish with medium distance string (KB?) would be nice