Should pokes be more negative on block?

[Qwark28]

LOL you must be confused. Mk9 had counterpoking, pretty sure MKX did too, but MK11 does not have counterpoking when d1s are - 5 on block and most pokes start up at 7 frames

-4*

People confusing every sort of term and every sort of poke/counterpoke meta each of the 3 games had/have.

In MK9, you could punish someone's poke with your own, if you weren't feeling fast enough to straight up do a string and punish them for it, or if you didn't have one/it was too slow.

In MK10, you could counterpoke most pokes IIRC.

In MK11, either you straight up to into a mid string, or if you don't have one, you're playing orangutan D1 mash until one of you decides to D4, throw or use movement to make it whiff.

But hey, this thread is all about shitting on the people who liked the old system better, so fall in line pls.

 

[Qwark28]

What's stopping someone from poking with a 7f d1 against someone with a 6f d1 that's -4 on block? There's a big enough gap, it's just sorta strict. But it's not stopping you from doing it and hitting them. What am I missing?

In mk9/x, it was a punish. In this game, you'd straight up throw a mid, without the option to punish the poke itself on block.

People are pissed that their high strings are high, mids too slow, and they can't punish pokes on block anymore, nor do over half the characters highs in this game jail after sufficient frame advantage, so they're understandably confused.

 

[Gruntypants]

What's stopping someone from poking with a 7f d1 against someone with a 6f d1 that's -4 on block? There's a big enough gap, it's just sorta strict. But it's not stopping you from doing it and hitting them. What am I missing?

That's not counter poking. You are not countering anything, poking in that situation will be disadvantageous for you. In Mk9 if you blocked a poke, you would be able to get a free poke that would hit. Ironically, this was way harder to do than what we do in MK11 (blocking and retaliating with a mid) because threes so much recovery and blockstun in this game

 

[Eldriken]

That's not counter poking. You are not countering anything, poking in that situation will be disadvantageous for you. In Mk9 if you blocked a poke, you would be able to get a free poke that would hit. Ironically, this was way harder to do than what we do in MK11 (blocking and retaliating with a mid) because threes so much recovery and blockstun in this game

Ahhh, I see. You meant actually punishing them after their blocked d1. My mistake. Thanks for clearing it up. You too, @Qwark28.

 

[Qwark28]

That's not counter poking. You are not countering anything, poking in that situation will be disadvantageous for you. In Mk9 if you blocked a poke, you would be able to get a free poke that would hit. Ironically, this was way harder to do than what we do in MK11 (blocking and retaliating with a mid) because threes so much recovery and blockstun in this game

The opposite. It was a lot easier. That's why 99% of the playerbase punished pokes with pokes instead of the full combos they should.

Avoiding, baiting, punishing etc pokes on whiff is something very few players did, notably REO with max range D3 into backdash F4 ND/C hitconfirm.

The reason people are complaining now is that this meta has changed, and all the current options you have in this game used to be the "obscure" 3rd, 4th and 5th options in previous games. And again, 99% of the playerbase is having to re-explore their options during poking.

 

[Gruntypants]

Ahhh, I see. You meant actually punishing them after their blocked d1. My mistake. Thanks for clearing it up. You too, @Qwark28.

Well yeah, that's the definition of counterpoking...

 

[LawAbidingCitizen]

Just because he wants D1s to be more - doesn't mean he's a scrub. D1s are in the best state they've ever been in.

And your examples are wrong. In mk9, d1s were straight up punishable by fast mids. If you D1'd against a good johnny who was on point, you'd eat a full F3 combo.

In MKX they were more - so you didn't see this often unless you played as/vs tremor.

You didn't see it in mk9 and x because it was faster pace and mids and mix was lightning fast. Noone needed to. But a 6-8 frame poke being -3 to -5 on block is hardly broke and doesn't jail.
In all those games counter poke prevailed. So the same.
What counters this is practice mode. Instead of crying for changes when something beats you, try going into practice and finding your options is all I'm saying.
If any of these players skilled or bad went into practice mode on day one and labbed responses to multiple D1 they wouldn't get beat and certainly wouldn't be here crying.

Even the best poke 6f and -3 on block gets beat by 8f and throws override pokes. Footsie what the game us focused on, walk back counters as well. Yes Kotal can't counter poke but there are options.

 

[Qwark28]

You didn't see it in mk9 and x because it was faster pace and mids and mix was lightning fast. Noone needed to. But a 6-8 frame poke being -3 to -5 on block is hardly broke and doesn't jail.
In all those games counter poke prevailed. So the same.
What counters this is practice mode. Instead of crying for changes when something beats you, try going into practice and finding your options is all I'm saying.
If any of these players skilled or bad went into practice mode on day one and labbed responses to multiple D1 they wouldn't get beat and certainly wouldn't be here crying.

Even the best poke 6f and -3 on block gets beat by 8f and throws override pokes. Footsie what the game us focused on, walk back counters as well. Yes Kotal can't counter poke but there are options.

No, you didn't see it because they were straight up punishable. This is one of the literal basics of MK9 at a high level, not sure what you're on about. Noone ever did poke into poke in that game.Mix and mids were lightning fast? Mids are the exact same speed as they've always been.

Did you actually play MK9?

 

[OutworldKeith]

Everyone in the thread already gave the best advice. Just pick Baraka d1 xx Chop Chop lmao. Never fails.

 

[LawAbidingCitizen]

No, you didn't see it because they were straight up punishable. This is one of the literal basics of MK9 at a high level, not sure what you're on about. Noone ever did poke into poke in that game.Mix and mids were lightning fast? Mids are the exact same speed as they've always been.

Did you actually play MK9?

I was talking about X and a blocked poke was counterable.

But my main point you are ignoring is that it's not cheap or broke. It's the meta. Adapt or lose. What good players do when they encounter something that gives them trouble is lab up responses. There are many universal counters to D1 mash. But what I'm seeing here is players saying, I don't like this feature, change it instead of untilizing practice mode(the best one to date).

Instead players like you are saying, throws are too strong, remove them, pokes are too strong remove them, jump in kicks are too strong remove them. This is a losing mentality and needs to go. Adapt and lab up responses to your problems. The patch button isn't your personal tool to make the game fit your playstyle.

There are multiple universal counters to Poke mash and I garantee D1 mash never beats players like Sonic, know why? Because he labs up the responses and adapts to the meta.

I'd be fine with a 6f D1 being -5 but not -7(GTFO if here). I understand Kotal mains being frustrated because all of his fast starters don't work and his D1 wiffs and his Command Grab wiffs. This isn't a problem with the game itself is specific to the character. But even with a character that is fundamentally failing in the poke and close up department he still has many options to counter poke mash.
Throw
Block and walk back wiff punish

But yes characters like Kotal need fixes so they can handle it better since his D4 is too slow to counter mashed D1 from Geras and his D1 wiffs and his D3 is absolute garbage.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

Avoiding, baiting, punishing etc pokes on whiff is something very few players did, notably REO with max range D3 into backdash F4 ND/C hitconfirm.

Sonic's another player who thrives on that sort of thing.

Dizzy also was notorious for this in MK9.

But I mean, I'm doing it now, and I'm no big-time top-level player. It's really not that hard in this game to make a read if someone's consistently trying to poke or counterpoke in a certain situation. It's just how MK11 works. You make people respect your options to beat their counterpoke and then they do something else instead.

 

[Bruno-NeoSpace]

This is kinda MKX Jason all over again...
And... Lmaaaoo at people saying I'm a scrub just because I think pokes should be more negative. Add me on PSN NeoSpace__ let's play some games to see who's the scrub

 

[Qwark28]

I was talking about X and a blocked poke was counterable.

But my main point you are ignoring is that it's not cheap or broke. It's the meta. Adapt or lose. What good players do when they encounter something that gives them trouble is lab up responses. There are many universal counters to D1 mash. But what I'm seeing here is players saying, I don't like this feature, change it instead of untilizing practice mode(the best one to date).

Instead players like you are saying, throws are too strong, remove them, pokes are too strong remove them, jump in kicks are too strong remove them. This is a losing mentality and needs to go. Adapt and lab up responses to your problems. The patch button isn't your personal tool to make the game fit your playstyle.

There are multiple universal counters to Poke mash and I garantee D1 mash never beats players like Sonic, know why? Because he labs up the responses and adapts to the meta.

I'd be fine with a 6f D1 being -5 but not -7(GTFO if here). I understand Kotal mains being frustrated because all of his fast starters don't work and his D1 wiffs and his Command Grab wiffs. This isn't a problem with the game itself is specific to the character. But even with a character that is fundamentally failing in the poke and close up department he still has many options to counter poke mash.
Throw
Block and walk back wiff punish

But yes characters like Kotal need fixes so they can handle it better since his D4 is too slow to counter mashed D1 from Geras and his D1 wiffs and his D3 is absolute garbage.

I'm ignoring your point because you seem to put words in my mouth and include me in the group that refuses to adapt and whines instead to the point where you're saying "I understand you would say that as a kotal player", when the last 6 years on this site show otherwise.

I don't care that I have to adapt, I'm going to do it anyway because I'm travelling for tournaments in EU, I still don't like pokes being -3 and this elitist thing you got going, labelling anyone who doesn't share your opinion "exposed for scrubs!!11".

You're arguing a point with someone who clarified the definition of counterpoking and its history in the MK scene, not with someone making a point about this topic.

 

[LawAbidingCitizen]

This is kinda MKX Jason all over again...
And... Lmaaaoo at people saying I'm a scrub just because I think pokes should be more negative. Add me on PSN NeoSpace__ let's play some games to see who's the scrub

I'll apologize for saying scrub. I shouldn't have gone there. It's just frustrating that people don't lab stuff. It's very simple to counter and takes 5 minutes to master.

No poke in this game beats out the counter options. Every character no matter how shit thier tools are have strong universal options.

 

[LawAbidingCitizen]

I'm ignoring your point because you seem to put words in my mouth and include me in the group that refuses to adapt and whines instead, when the last 6 years on this site show otherwise. I don't care that I have to adapt, I'm going to do it anyway because I'm travelling for tournaments in EU, I still don't like pokes being -3 and this elitist thing you got going, labelling anyone who doesn't share your opinion "exposed for scrubs!!11".

Lmao you if all people are calling me an elitist? That's rich. I'm just frustrated people don't lab simple counters. I shouldn't have said scrub.

But you have constantly dogged on others because they share different opinions than you. Either it's easy for you to counter or it's not. If it's not you need to lab. My question is if it's so easy for you to beat then why call for change?
Bad players D1 mash, good players counter it.

Maybe when someone disagrees with you try checking it instead of saying I practice with the best, only my opinion is valid. I'm fine with you not wanting to talk with me cuz I have been respectful to you for months and all I've seen if you is I'm better than everyone and constant rudeness.

 

[GODLIKE OBI]

I voted yes. Pokes should be more negative on block to allow for a counterpoke to punish.

 

[Qwark28]

Lmao you if all people are calling me an elitist? That's rich. I'm just frustrated people don't lab simple counters. I shouldn't have said scrub.

But you have constantly dogged on others because they share different opinions than you. Either it's easy for you to counter or it's not. If it's not you need to lab. My question is if it's so easy for you to beat then why call for change?
Bad players D1 mash, good players counter it.

Maybe when someone disagrees with you try checking it instead of saying I practice with the best, only my opinion is valid. I'm fine with you not wanting to talk with me cuz I have been respectful to you for months and all I've seen if you is I'm better than everyone and constant rudeness.

Maybe you should try your own medicine and understand people can have their own opinions without calling them scrubs.

I came into this thread and explained what counterpoking is, then had you endlessly quote me with your projections like I'm not labbing or something. Then when I explain to you that that's not the way it is you get snippy and rush to correct all your mk9/x misquotes. I don't need to check arguments I'm not a part of, nor do I go back and say "I only meant XYZ game in your direct quote where I talk about both X,Y and Z".

And yes, considering the stupidity I see on this site daily, the fact that I'm the one telling you this in a respectful manner should be a wakeup call.

 

[Xzyj]

whenever i face people who do multiple pokes on block or on hit without even trying to hitconfirm and then go for jump/throw/string i start doing like 5 fucking D1s in a row and they seem to have malfunction in their brain that stops them from mashing and makes them leave after the match is over

imo this "mindgame" shouldn't be as prevalent, no poke should be less than -5 or -6, you try to steal your turn - you guessed wrong, you lose your turn.

I'm playing frost and facing geras is like the stupidest orangutan shit ever, boy can just spam d1's on block until i'm pushed out of his d1 reach so i can actually walk back and whiff punish, my d1 is 9 frames so it trades with his second one, d3 is too short to reach after the initial pushback, fun times.

 

[LawAbidingCitizen]

I voted yes. Pokes should be more negative on block to allow for a counterpoke to punish.

That would ruin the game for me.
That would remove the close up poke war mind games. This game us very footsie based and because if pokes being less than -6 on block allows for many cool things including baitingpokes to wiff.
If they made it -7 on block then most character hit on counter poke removing the capability to walk back wiff punish after blocking poke.
I'd be fine with -5 on most pokes but honestly there are universal counters to D1 mash including:

• Block walk back wiff punish
• Throw overrides pokes.
• Almost every character can block and counter poke.
• Some characters have special moves that force them to respect your counter options like Baraka and Jacqui.

Making pokes -7 on block will destroy the poke mind games. Only certain character will get a garanteed counter poke on hit while other character like Kollector with 8f D1 will not. This will create a huge close up game gap in the roster.

I think it's fine since it's all counterable but if it had to be changed, make it -5 on block.
In addition certain characters have pokes that are wiffing and have shit startup. Kotal is a prime example, if he blocks a D1 he can't D1/D3 or D4 because his D3 and D4 are too slow and his D1 has no range making him wiff. But he can throw them or walk back and wiff punish.
Characters like Kotal need thier pokes adjusted because they are poorly designed for this meta.

 

[TaserFace007]

It’s an issue with your gameplay, not the game design. No true competitive game is designed to benefit people who are too lazy to learn the meta.

Ya, I don’t really care how they work at a high level. Good players will adapt to whatever the game design is, so making them more negative on block is something they’ll learn to deal with and still do well.

It’s at a lower to mid level with the casual players (you know, the ones who make up most of the player base) that they make a fight spammy and boring and that’s where they need to be fixed.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

Ya, I don’t really care how they work at a high level. Good players will adapt to whatever the game design is, so making them more negative on block is something they’ll learn to deal with and still do well.

It’s at a lower to mid level with the casual players (you know, the ones who make up most of the player base) that they make a fight spammy and boring and that’s where they need to be fixed.

The difference in a few frames won't matter to casual players anyway, so I'm not sure what the point is supposed to be.

 

[Gruntypants]

whenever i face people who do multiple pokes on block or on hit without even trying to hitconfirm and then go for jump/throw/string i start doing like 5 fucking D1s in a row and they seem to have malfunction in their brain that stops them from mashing and makes them leave after the match is over

imo this "mindgame" shouldn't be as prevalent, no poke should be less than -5 or -6, you try to steal your turn - you guessed wrong, you lose your turn.

I'm playing frost and facing geras is like the stupidest orangutan shit ever, boy can just spam d1's on block until i'm pushed out of his d1 reach so i can actually walk back and whiff punish, my d1 is 9 frames so it trades with his second one, d3 is too short to reach after the initial pushback, fun times.

Geras d1 is -4 frost has 8f D3. Even your d1 will still beat it and NOT trade if you time it properly. You gotta level up. Or just block and then walk back words LOL

 

[TaserFace007]

The difference in a few frames won't matter to casual players anyway, so I'm not sure what the point is supposed to be.

The ability to back off or counter attack. Basically, just make crouching there and doing down punches not a thing anymore.

 

[Xzyj]

Geras d1 is -4 frost has 8f D3. Even your d1 will still beat it and NOT trade if you time it properly. You gotta level up. Or just block and then walk back words LOL

Geras has variable framedata on d1 due to 2 active frames and at certain ranges it becomes -3, and it does trade with both d1 and d3 at that range, and i can't just block and walk "back words" because he might as well just go for his mid in that situation and just straight up beat me, or even if i block it i'm back at -3 situation after he finishes the string on block, maybe you should try these things in actual games before glancing at framedata and making your assumptions LOL!

 

[CrimsonShadow]

Basically, just make crouching there and doing down punches not a thing anymore.

That's called poking, and it's a normal part of fighting games. Our pokes are actually slower and more negative than those of multiple other popular fighting games.